Be honest guys: you don't need carbon blades

[Amayzde]

Both players here playing with 5 ply allwood blades. They both play in the highest division in the Netherlands.

Lukas: Andro Novacell All/S
Nolan: Stiga Infinity VPS V

 

[thommy_f]

Both players here playing with 5 ply allwood blades. They both play in the highest division in the Netherlands.

Lukas: Andro Novacell All/S
Nolan: Stiga Infinity VPS V

I thought Lukas switched to using a Synteliac VCI

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I thought Lukas switched to using a Synteliac VCI

A freeze frame at 3:30 shows that it is very obviously one of the Synteliac blades. No way that is a Novacell ALL

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Both players here playing with 5 ply allwood blades. They both play in the highest division in the Netherlands.

Lukas: Andro Novacell All/S
Nolan: Stiga Infinity VPS V

I watched the match. Schultz is a good player but also one who clearly does not value making high quality shots as part of his game but wins through placement and consistency. His opponent is levels higher so this video isn't the best gauge but it is a good demonstration of @NextLevel's point above. Nobody would argue that you can't play at a high level with all wood blades but it is also a question of how much you want to work for your points and how you want to win points.

 

[NextLevel]

Since I came to this thread late and there is new material that some may not be aware of that bears on the subject, here is a brilliant but not that often cited video from Tabletennis11.com. it enables you to understand the true impact of fast equipment. For context, do realize that the worse player in this test is over 2500 USATT and the better player would be over 2650 USATT, probably 2700+ in some contexts.

 

[stephan]

Both players here playing with 5 ply allwood blades. They both play in the highest division in the Netherlands.

Lukas: Andro Novacell All/S
Nolan: Stiga Infinity VPS V

can you understand german? Lukas addresses this topic in this Video: he used to play Novacell OFF. at the beginning of the season preparation, andro send him a Synteliac VCO which he plays since then. he says that it's easier for him to generate more power with the same movement, but he still has to adjust to service/return, which is harder for him now.
before the timestamp i linked, he goes into the same discussion as this topic. that he is wondering, that so many people are curious what he plays and that he thinks that low level players should focus on more training than to think about the perfect setup, as the differences are minimal.

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah, but what exactly "work for your points" means? Because there are carbon blades that are slower than 7ply blades and it's tougher to finish points with it.

Most people who talk about carbon blades aren't talking about slower carbon blades but regardless, wood blades aren't exclusively about overall speed but about the nature of the sweet spot which also affects blocking. Even pros who don't like carbon still use blades with a composite to make the properties more uniform and reproducible and the sweet spot larger.

But you can see that the carbon player (stronger player in the video) is also working for his points. So this idea of working for points with all wood is a canard. The use of a faster blade just allows you to take advantage of the rebound properties of the blade to produce quality with shorter strokes though this might make it harder to keep the ball short or produce spin. But the other advantage of stiffer or composite blades is the ability to get a more consistent effect when you add power, while thinner 5 plies are often too flexible.

On the whole, blades are engineered to suite a particular mode of play. Using a wood blade doesn't say much about the actual blades properties - per ttgearlab, the Korbel SK7 that Karlsson currently uses is closer to my Viscaria SALC in some properties than to a Clipper or a regular Korbel. But the thickness of the SK7 probably suits Karlsson and his feeling and instincts. I prefer thinner blades for topspin and sometimes shave my handles to make my blades feel thinner.

With the speed of the new ball in general, anyone who is singing the praises of all wood blades religiously is usually just a lower rated player. Better players who like all wood blades admit that they just can't adapt their feeling to carbon though for many of them I suspect they would prefer non-carbon composites if they were top professionals. I actually first went to Mazunov before diving finally into composites. I did dabble with them prior but kept trying to keep their stiffness lower. Then I tried stiffer composites. But now I am back to a fast but well engineered flexible blade.

Blade engineering is not always trivial. What SALC has done (create blades that are faster than traditional ALC blades but which vibrate and feel like regular ALC blades) - try doing that with wood some time.

Edit: even with slower carbon blades, don't understimate the carbon kick on power shots.

 

[piligrim]

PS: i tested Korbel SK7 and found it utterly slow for me, don't know how Karlson do it 😅

Karlson doesn't use SK7 anymore

 

[NextLevel]

Where i think carbon helps is in sweet spot, and kick, so with a shorter swing than an allwood you can have a faster/stronger ball.

Probably for the top 200/500 top players in the world the game gets so fast and need so much precision that carbon can be a must, even though there are players like Karlsson, Szöcs and a bunch more.

But to my knowledge, there are very good players on the portuguese 1 division, that even played on the national team and they still use allwood and their game don't miss any more power, click, precision etc.

I'm just playing the devil advocate here for conversation sake, since i play carbon blades mostly too (the last 3 seasons, innerforce, outer zlc and now alc), but really like allwood. In my case i preffer to play with carbon for a more consistente blade overall. But when i tried allwood again, im considering if i win or loose more with one or another.
Im no pro player, but no beginner too, im an average player of the 2º division in Portugal.

PS: i tested Korbel SK7 and found it utterly slow for me, don't know how Karlson do it 😅

You probably don't make contact in the right part of the blade all the time. When using all wood, you must be precise with your contact on every shot, with carbon, you have more margin for variety.

The truth is that no one knows exactly what anyone else is using, wood and production quality changes from blade to blade. I am just trying like you to keep the arguments reasonable. Karlsson, all wood, Lebesson, all wood, Thiago Monteiro, all wood, Filus and Gionis, all wood. But the main point though is that carbon/composite for making blades faster and consistent is no longer just for experts, it is for anyone who wants to train with it and adjust to the feeling. In men's game, the ability to step back and use the time and the greater distance to play more powerful shots is also work, even if it is a different kind of work. And working with all wood blade usually means a less powerful shot, the blade is the biggest factor in overall ball rebound speed. Since spin is not as effective as it used to be with the celluloid balls, it is harder to justify using all wood slower blades while there was a reasonable tradeoff in the past. Some pips players still do it, some players who still play at a level where spin is as vicious as speed still do it. But speed is at a premium as the level gets better. And the ability to get speed and have time away from the table is a big deal. Blade doesn't determine the level, but for optimal level, you need to use the fastest you can control. And if that is carbon, then go to carbon. But with these newer balls, it isn't that hard to feel carbon anymore.

 

[blahness]

Once you can generate very strong spin with wrist and fingers you dont need all wood to feel the ball anymore. Carbon blades are just faster with less effort so stroke can be made shorter without compromising power. Short stroke big power is very advantageous in the modern plastic ball game.

A lot of ppl complain about lack of control in carbon blades, but as you get better you become more precise with your contact so that is not a big problem.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I a

be honest and open minded.
when you can, take the opportunity to try new stuff for free from friends / coaches / shops.
it doesn't take more than a few minutes to see if the stuff is good or not for you.

Once you find a good setup, not worth wasting time trying to find something "better". Just train. the more time you keep the same setup, the better you get at playing.

Personally i played more than 12 years with Korbel which is all-wood. I never wanted to go to Carbon because i felt it was too fast and uncontrollable for me until i tried the Nittaku Acoustic Inner which is just perfect. It felt to me quite similar to the Korbel but with more control, precision and feeling.

I've had in my hands other carbon blades or rubbers. I just like my setup, and outer carbon blades still feel uncontrollable to me. its like the ball is already out of the racket before I "feel" it. On the other hand, whenever i have the Korbel in my hands, its way too slow and unplayable for me.

somebody revived this old thread

so here's my update

in 2023 my coach GC who's working for Tibhar made me try Tibhar blades and rubbers, and i went for it (MK Carbon + Hybrid MK (FH) + K3 (BH). it was the first time i used outer carbon but with slower rubbers than i had with my then setup (Nittaku Acoustic Inner, Tenergy80 (FH), Dignics 80 (BH) )
[It was the same setup than Kenta Matsudaira was using back then]

For the first time i felt i could control the outer carbon, it was a bit slower at the table especially FH drive and smash, but mid distance it felt easy to topspin and counterloop. With this setup i had to change a bit my technique and learn how to use my body better to make up for loss of power.

1 year later, one day i forgot my racket at home, and somebody kindly lent me his racket and i liked it so much that i bought exactly the same, and i have been playing since. its much faster than the Tibhar setup. but because my technique improved it was no problem to go with the upgrade.

each time I upgraded my setup, it felt like having a new cheatcode. WTF was i doing not having that setup ? thats why my opponent's ball is so good, he's using outer carbon blades !

i wouldn't go back to Tibhar or Nittaku Acoustic Inner if i had the choice but ofc i could still play with it, but it would be less effective.

I'm playing the best TT of my life and i see absolutely no reason to change once again

 

[Table10Ice]

I'm playing the best TT of my life and i see absolutely no reason to change once again

I'm willing to bet against that.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I'm willing to bet against that.

you're gonna lose, unlike most people in this thread im NOT an EJ...

 

[NextLevel]

Since I came to this thread late and there is new material that some may not be aware of that bears on the subject, here is a brilliant but not that often cited video from Tabletennis11.com. it enables you to understand the true impact of fast equipment. For context, do realize that the worse player in this test is over 2500 USATT and the better player would be over 2650 USATT, probably 2700+ in some contexts.

I would like to add this video as well to this conversation:

 

[Colin Ksh]

Karlson doesn't use SK7 anymore

any updates on his equipment? i assume he's still using sk7 on recent matches

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

yes! we don't need it, instead, we desire it.

 

[joshmak10]

I learned with carbon, so I stick with carbon. I play for the fun of the game.

 

[Zezima]

Both players here playing with 5 ply allwood blades. They both play in the highest division in the Netherlands.

Lukas: Andro Novacell All/S
Nolan: Stiga Infinity VPS V

Hmm just proves me that they make the same mistakes as me so no point in playing 5ply allowed blades. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Lazer]

The thing about composite layers is that they make it easier to keep the blades more consistent. My fastest blade is actually an 9 layer all wood blade...
Two of my slower blades are Donic Appelgren WC 89 and Nittaku SC-Z, and they are both outers...

It simply does not matter, just play with the blade you like and forget about the rest...

Cheers
L-zr

 

[piligrim]

any updates on his equipment? i assume he's still using sk7 on recent matches

no sorry. I don't follow him. Not my favorite player