Fantastic match! US Open

[NetProphet]

This is a belter of a match from the US Open Mens Singles.
Anyone in here played either of these guys before?

 

[joshmak10]

This is a belter of a match from the US Open Mens Singles.
Anyone in here played either of these guys before?

Kou Lei and Mathieu are both MLTT players. Kou also was an Olympian. I’m not sure how many people here would’ve played them unless there are some near professionals here

 

[NetProphet]

Yeah, I figured someone may have played Mathieu at one time or another.
I suspect there are a few folks hovering in here who are at MLTT clubs so was just curious.
I didn't actually know Kou Lei was in MLTT either, figured he had just retired... 🤷

 

[joshmak10]

Yeah, I figured someone may have played Mathieu at one time or another.
I suspect there are a few folks hovering in here who are at MLTT clubs so was just curious.
I didn't actually know Kou Lei was in MLTT either, figured he had just retired... 🤷

I’m surprised Kou Lei hasn’t retired either but it seems he’s still kicking. One of the best players in MLTT right now which either shows how good Kou Lei is still at 37 or how bad MLTT is…😲

 

[NextLevel]

Kou Lei and Mathieu are both MLTT players. Kou also was an Olympian. I’m not sure how many people here would’ve played them unless there are some near professionals here

In the US, one can play these players in Open round robins on rare occasions if they are not seeded out so while the question isn't typical, it isn't as radical as you might think for a player who is active on the US table tennis scene. I have played Wang Zhen at Cary Cup for example. I have also played quite a few 2600+ players at Westchester or Princeton when I still used to occasionally play the Open section (I did it less and less and almost never do it these days though i might change that).

 

[NetProphet]

I’m surprised Kou Lei hasn’t retired either but it seems he’s still kicking. One of the best players in MLTT right now which either shows how good Kou Lei is still at 37 or how bad MLTT is…😲

Bad? I don't think so. Unless you are comparing it to a Chinese league standard.
But these guys are playing a high level considering the game is still subculture and has no real heritage in the US.
It takes a while to go up an overall level but if MLTT can run for 10+ years you could see it match Bundesliga etc and more players come from US at level of KJ and higher.
Well that's my thoughts, be interesting to hear what @Tony's Table Tennis and others actually operating in the game would reckon about time-frames for such progress...

 

[NextLevel]

I’m surprised Kou Lei hasn’t retired either but it seems he’s still kicking. One of the best players in MLTT right now which either shows how good Kou Lei is still at 37 or how bad MLTT is…😲

You really should do some investigation before making such statements. I remember someone making a similarly degrading statement about Kou Lei saying there was no way he could be rated above Enzo Angles, even though Enzo had lost 0-3 lead to Kou at a US tournament and also lost 0-3 to Kou later at the NA Teams. That Kou maintained his level while staying mostly in the US has been interesting but that he is legitimately world class even as he is older and travels less, there is no doubt.

After all, for a while, Ma Jinbao struggled to beat Kou Lei. You are familiar with Ma Jinbao on the ITTF tour hopefully. Ita not like he beats everyone in the MLTT mindlessly, he wins and loses just like everyone else despite being a top player. Same with Pitchford and Lebesson. Kou Lei made the quarters of the US Open and lost to a really strong Japanese lefty. Bottom line, look into the actual data, don't make assumptions that may betray your ignorance.

 

[joshmak10]

Bad? I don't think so. Unless you are comparing it to a Chinese league standard.
But these guys are playing a high level considering the game is still subculture and has no real heritage in the US.
It takes a while to go up an overall level but if MLTT can run for 10+ years you could see it match Bundesliga etc and more players come from US at level of KJ and higher.
Well that's my thoughts, be interesting to hear what @Tony's Table Tennis and others actually operating in the game would reckon about time-frames for such progress...

I actually really enjoy MLTT. I do hope even more players from Europe or Asia come play.

 

[joshmak10]

You really should do some investigation before making such statements. I remember someone making a similarly degrading statement about Kou Lei saying there was no way he could be rated above Enzo Angles, even though Enzo had lost 0-3 lead to Kou at a US tournament and also lost 0-3 to Kou later at the NA Teams. That Kou maintained his level while staying mostly in the US has been interesting but that he is legitimately world class even as he is older and travels less, there is no doubt.

After all, for a while, Ma Jinbao struggled to beat Kou Lei. You are familiar with Ma Jinbao on the ITTF tour hopefully. Ita not like he beats everyone in the MLTT mindlessly, he wins and loses just like everyone else despite being a top player. Same with Pitchford and Lebesson. Kou Lei made the quarters of the US Open and lost to a really strong Japanese lefty. Bottom line, look into the actual data, don't make assumptions that may betray your ignorance.

This isn’t coming from ignorance mate. MLTT is not a high level league yet at least compared to the elite leagues like CSL, Bundesliga, French, etc. Kou is a world class player no doubt. But he is past his prime at 37. Enzo is also world class but he is older too. Same with Pitch, Satoshi Aida, all the best players of MLTT are players past their primes with the exception of KTH. So yes MLTT is not at the level yet to consider it “high level” but Kou Lei is still a good player, just past his prime

 

[NextLevel]

This isn’t coming from ignorance mate. MLTT is not a high level league yet at least compared to the elite leagues like CSL, Bundesliga, French, etc. Kou is a world class player no doubt. But he is past his prime at 37. Enzo is also world class but he is older too. Same with Pitch, Satoshi Aida, all the best players of MLTT are players past their primes with the exception of KTH. So yes MLTT is not at the level yet to consider it “high level” but Kou Lei is still a good player, just past his prime

Oh I am so sorry. You want to list the 3 best leagues in the world as the only high level leagues, go ahead. In the real world, most people know that if Liam Pitchford, Emmanuel Lebesson and Benedikt Olah and such 2700+ players are playing in your league, you have a good league as these players can play in any league. And I am certain if you told Liam Pitchford he was past his prime, he would be very offended. Plenty of the talent in the MLTT is rated USATT 2700+ even when they are not household names. Of course the league isn't 2700+ players everywhere, but no one who watches the league would argue that this year isn't mostly world class players on display.

With respect to Kou Lei, people who know him (and you obviously don't) will tell you that it is far less about his prime, but more about what he enjoys and what he doesn't enjoy in terms of how best to make money. Since you continue to say things that betray your ignorance, do remember that Kou Lei is barely one year older than Quadri and Dima (who are both playing some of the best TT of their careers) and that Boll was still dominating Europe at his age and Chuan Chi Yuan still played well into his 40s. Kou Lei is not as simple as "older means no longer as strong" ‐ he has a strong understanding of what he wants to do with his time.

But please continue to pretend you know what you don't know just to make it obvious that your understanding of table tennis is based on what you see on YouTube.

 

[joshmak10]

Oh I am so sorry. You want to list the 3 best leagues in the world as the only high level leagues, go ahead. In the real world, most people know that if Liam Pitchford, Emmanuel Lebesson and Benedikt Olah and such 2700+ players are playing in your league, you have a good league as these players can play in any league. And I am certain if you told Liam Pitchford he was past his prime, he would be very offended. Plenty of the talent in the MLTT is rated USATT 2700+ even when they are not household names. Of course the league isn't 2700+ players everywhere, but no one who watches the league would argue that this year isn't mostly world class players on display.

Ok you can pretend that those three players aren’t over the age of 30 or at some of their lowest WRs in years sure. And you can also pretend that those 2700+ players are among the best in the world when they usually get destroyed by some random Top 200 players. But yeah sure mate pretend MLTT is a among the best leagues go ahead

With respect to Kou Lei, people who know him (and you obviously don't) will tell you that it is far less about his prime, but more about what he enjoys and what he doesn't enjoy in terms of how best to make money. Since you continue to say things that betray your ignorance, do remember that Kou Lei is barely one year older than Quadri and Dima (who are both playing some of the best TT of their careers) and that Boll was still dominating Europe at his age and Chuan Chi Yuan still played well into his 40s. Kou Lei is not as simple as "older means no longer as strong" ‐ he has a strong understanding of what he wants to do with his time.

So you tell me you know Kou Lei, and you tell me what he wants to do? You compare Kou Lei to four of the greatest players in table tennis when Kou Lei is nowhere near one of the best (still a very good player). Yes Kou Lei is good man. I’ve said that multiple times but he is nowhere near where he once was.

But please continue to pretend you know what you don't know just to make it obvious that your understanding of table tennis is based on what you see on YouTube.

And so you want to just insult me based on a fact that I said Kou Lei is past his prime and the MLTT, while filled with some amazing players, is still most definitely a B tier league is terms of skill level? Go ahead man. I’ve got better things to do in life and you can flame me all you want but really i can’t see what you are trying to accomplish by just saying someone is “ignorant” 🤣🤣🥱🥱

 

[Der_Echte]

Canada's Eugene Wong was WR60s last year and is in the MLTT... you wanna disparage him too?

 

[NextLevel]

Ok you can pretend that those three players aren’t over the age of 30 or at some of their lowest WRs in years sure. And you can also pretend that those 2700+ players are among the best in the world when they usually get destroyed by some random Top 200 players. But yeah sure mate pretend MLTT is a among the best leagues go ahead

So you tell me you know Kou Lei, and you tell me what he wants to do? You compare Kou Lei to four of the greatest players in table tennis when Kou Lei is nowhere near one of the best (still a very good player). Yes Kou Lei is good man. I’ve said that multiple times but he is nowhere near where he once was.

And so you want to just insult me based on a fact that I said Kou Lei is past his prime and the MLTT, while filled with some amazing players, is still most definitely a B tier league is terms of skill level? Go ahead man. I’ve got better things to do in life and you can flame me all you want but really i can’t see what you are trying to accomplish by just saying someone is “ignorant” 🤣🤣🥱🥱

I will leave people to assess your insight from what you have posted and whether world ranking is the best way to measure whether Quadri and Dima and CCY were still playing high level TT into their 30s. But anyone claiming that random top 200 players can beat 2700+ players is not worth seriously debating - anyone can lose to anyone because people are human beings, but it's almost never random and hard to understand without knowing the players.

Kou Lei could easily compete internationally if he was motivated, he isn't that much worse than Ma Jinbao, who is competing very well on the international tour and Lou Lei is at least as good at Yaroslav Zhmudenko who played in the Olympics for Ukraine - you may not remember that Kou Lei was US Open champ in 2022 just two years ago. Some people just don't think there is enough money in TT and they don't have the mindset to just put themselves through the hustle when they make great money coaching and that is okay for them.

My point here is while MLTT isn't close to the top league in the world, anyone saying it isn't a high level league requires context and sounds more like youtube CNT fanboism where you can just say well, the players are not all TTR 2500+, so it is a B-Tier league. In reality, not everyone wants to sweat all day long fighting internationally with no real reward. Lebesson isnt really past his prime, he just has has too many better players in front of him in the French national team. Koki Niwa suffered from exactly the same issue and retired for the same reason, but even in his prime, he would have stood no chance against the current generation of TT players. Satoshi Aida, who is supposedly well past his prime, is still able to place in the Japanese national championships - so what was he doing at his prime, leaping tall buildings in a single bound? Provost was just a couple of years ago making the semis at the French Nationals.

In any case, if your A-tier is just CSL, French and German, yes of course, MLTT is not an A tier league. But I am arguing that your concept of A-tier league is YouTube driven and has little to do with the reality of competitive table tennis. Many strong players in the world don't play in the first division of CSL, France or Germany.

 

[joshmak10]

Canada's Eugene Wong was WR60s last year and is in the MLTT... you wanna disparage him too?

I am Canadian and I can safely say Eugene is wayyy past his prime and basically retired and our coach now

 

[joshmak10]

I will leave people to assess your insight from what you have posted and whether world ranking is the best way to measure whether Quadri and Dima and CCY were still playing high level TT into their 30s. But anyone claiming that random top 200 players can beat 2700+ players is not worth seriously debating - anyone can lose to anyone because people are human beings, but it's almost never random and hard to understand without knowing the players.

Kou Lei could easily compete internationally if he was motivated, he isn't that much worse than Ma Jinbao, who is competing very well on the international tour and Lou Lei is at least as good at Yaroslav Zhmudenko who played in the Olympics for Ukraine - you may not remember that Kou Lei was US Open champ in 2022 just two years ago. Some people just don't think there is enough money in TT and they don't have the mindset to just put themselves through the hustle when they make great money coaching and that is okay for them.

My point here is while MLTT isn't close to the top league in the world, anyone saying it isn't a high level league requires context and sounds more like youtube CNT fanboism where you can just say well, the players are not all TTR 2500+, so it is a B-Tier league. In reality, not everyone wants to sweat all day long fighting internationally with no real reward. Lebesson isnt really past his prime, he just has has too many better players in front of him in the French national team. Koki Niwa suffered from exactly the same issue and retired for the same reason, but even in his prime, he would have stood no chance against the current generation of TT players. Satoshi Aida, who is supposedly well past his prime, is still able to place in the Japanese national championships - so what was he doing at his prime, leaping tall buildings in a single bound? Provost was just a couple of years ago making the semis at the French Nationals.

In any case, if your A-tier is just CSL, French and German, yes of course, MLTT is not an A tier league. But I am arguing that your concept of A-tier league is YouTube driven and has little to do with the reality of competitive table tennis. Many strong players in the world don't play in the first division of CSL, France or Germany.

Take opinions how ever you want, I can’t change your opinion and others can’t change mine. I can respect others opinion tho as long as the respect is mutual. I truly think MLTT can be up there with the CSLs and the French Pro A leagues of the world, but they just simply do not have the coverage or media attention like the aforementioned leagues

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

I am Canadian and I can safely say Eugene is wayyy past his prime and basically retired and our coach now

You live in the western hemisphere where prior to MLTT, we've had practically nothing in terms of a pro league. Within 2 years we now we get players like Pitchford (who just beat Dima last year at 2024 Champions Frankfurt), Lebesson (XD bronze medalist 2021 Euro 2021), and Satoshi Aida (beat Simon Gauzy to win Feeder Ft Lauderdale title and *current* member of T-League, the highest league in Japan) among others. I would say it's simply not accurate at all to portray the league as "not high level" or use Kou Lei (still USATT 2800, mind you) as an example of how bad it is.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Bad? I don't think so. Unless you are comparing it to a Chinese league standard.
But these guys are playing a high level considering the game is still subculture and has no real heritage in the US.
It takes a while to go up an overall level but if MLTT can run for 10+ years you could see it match Bundesliga etc and more players come from US at level of KJ and higher.
Well that's my thoughts, be interesting to hear what @Tony's Table Tennis and others actually operating in the game would reckon about time-frames for such progress...

its all about money going in, and how much roi is possible for the investments.
else, money going in will run dry and business will close if the roi model can't work.
So, audience/spectator plays a huge role in the success or failure of MLTT.

if you look at T-League or German Bundesliga, or French Pro A, the die hard club fans does have a good number.
and from there, it means there is a market and businesses/investors will continue to push funds into the club.
MLTT as far as fan numbers goes, is very worrying.

Other than that, I have mentioned about
- To afford European or Asian salaries is going to be tough.
- The league duration for only 8 teams, (1 weekend a month and for 7 months) is also very difficult to commit to. (what happens when there is 12 teams, going to take 10 months?)

But as time goes on, I am sure improvements will occur and the team budget + league duration will be look at.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You live in the western hemisphere where prior to MLTT, we've had practically nothing in terms of a pro league. Within 2 years we now we get players like Pitchford (who just beat Dima last year at 2024 Champions Frankfurt), Lebesson (XD bronze medalist 2021 Euro 2021), and Satoshi Aida (beat Simon Gauzy to win Feeder Ft Lauderdale title and *current* member of T-League, the highest league in Japan) among others. I would say it's simply not accurate at all to portray the league as "not high level" or use Kou Lei (still USATT 2800, mind you) as an example of how bad it is.

It is quite nice to attract stars, but their are all on the other side of the age scale to be fair.
This is the same with some leagues in Europe - great for older players to compete and continue to make money, while the other players would be 2nd string national players, or juniors. But the perception of such leagues is just that - for the formers to go and have a haven.

MLTT will need to shift towards a mainstream (age) Pro Team one day, and I think that is what is maybe a more fair question (the age factor) than oppose to using level.

This is like Taiwan's basketball Pro League, gets retired/old/injured NBA stars, and they become a super star and MVP. It doesn't add much value to be honest to the status on Taiwan's league. Since it is like a once off thing, and the star will leave.

well, for MLTT, I know of 2 young players rumoured to be included next season, so this will help balance the "high usatt rating medium age" a bit.

 

[NextLevel]

It is quite nice to attract stars, but their are all on the other side of the age scale to be fair.
This is the same with some leagues in Europe - great for older players to compete and continue to make money, while the other players would be 2nd string national players, or juniors. But the perception of such leagues is just that - for the formers to go and have a haven.

MLTT will need to shift towards a mainstream (age) Pro Team one day, and I think that is what is maybe a more fair question (the age factor) than oppose to using level.

This is like Taiwan's basketball Pro League, gets retired/old/injured NBA stars, and they become a super star and MVP. It doesn't add much value to be honest to the status on Taiwan's league. Since it is like a once off thing, and the star will leave.

well, for MLTT, I know of 2 young players rumoured to be included next season, so this will help balance the "high usatt rating medium age" a bit.

I largely agree with the caveat that star power is hard to get from younger players even when the quality is there. Pitchford is 31. He is still the #1 player in England and one of the most dangerous players in the world - he is playing laegely because his national team teammate (McBeath) liked the experience and recommended it to him. Yes the other players are older, but many players their age are still playing in European leagues and for top national teams, the issue is whether they are competitive in their home countries or not. Younger players still have a lot to prove ans are often still seeking glory. But they are also often less tested and not as reliable.

Ma Jinbao as far as I know is young. A variety of things come together to determine whether you want to play in MLTT or not. Some people need more money to come to the US. Some may not like the calendar. The main point here is that age is not a primary determinant of playing level in TT and that if they played a more prominent role for their national teams or had better funding from their national teams depending on the situation, many of these players would still be active at the top. But there isn't enough money of opportunity for everyone to play in the top leagues. But let us not pretend that these guys are worse just because they are older. The story is far more complicated than that, as you get older, your priorities are also changing. You shouldn't be deemed a worse player because your priorities are changing or because the Lebruns showed up and made you no longer needed on the national team.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I largely agree with the caveat that star power is hard to get from younger players even when the quality is there. Pitchford is 31. He is still the #1 player in England and one of the most dangerous players in the world - he is playing laegely because his national team teammate (McBeath) liked the experience and recommended it to him. Yes the other players are older, but many players their age are still playing in European leagues and for top national teams, the issue is whether they are competitive in their home countries or not. Younger players still have a lot to prove ans are often still seeking glory. But they are also often less tested and not as reliable.

Ma Jinbao as far as I know is young. A variety of things come together to determine whether you want to play in MLTT or not. Some people need more money to come to the US. Some may not like the calendar. The main point here is that age is not a primary determinant of playing level in TT and that if they played a more prominent role for their national teams or had better funding from their national teams depending on the situation, many of these players would still be active at the top. But there isn't enough money of opportunity for everyone to play in the top leagues. But let us not pretend that these guys are worse just because they are older. The story is far more complicated than that, as you get older, your priorities are also changing. You shouldn't be deemed a worse player because your priorities are changing or because the Lebruns showed up and made you no longer needed on the national team.

well, many athletes, not just table tennis, when age comes up, they do move on to weaker leagues and they also do become cheaper (more affordable for clubs). This is the same for pretty much all pro sports and not unique to table tennis.
that is not a good sign for MLTT as I'm sure USA's top league doesn't want to be perceived a cheaper league that can only afford older players.
again, I am not talking about weaker, but rather perceived value.

if you want to talk about Pitchford, his French Pro A win rate is only 33%.
He is a great player, but not doing too good "at home".
his 36 teammate in Pro A is sitting with a 86% win rate as comparison (maybe all the fly between France and USA is not ideal?)

Ma Jingbao - is he a full time player, or a training partner/ coach and earns money from such?