Fantastic match! US Open

[NextLevel]

well, many athletes, not just table tennis, when age comes up, they do move on to weaker leagues and they also do become cheaper (more affordable for clubs). This is the same for pretty much all pro sports and not unique to table tennis.
that is not a good sign for MLTT as I'm sure USA's top league doesn't want to be perceived a cheaper league that can only afford older players.
again, I am not talking about weaker, but rather perceived value.

if you want to talk about Pitchford, his French Pro A win rate is only 33%.
He is a great player, but not doing too good "at home".
his 36 teammate in Pro A is sitting with a 86% win rate as comparison (maybe all the fly between France and USA is not ideal?)

Ma Jingbao - is he a full time player, or a training partner/ coach and earns money from such?

I know lots of players who play better in league than internationally and vice versa. League has its own stresses and demands as well as international play. Quadri is in some ways getting better results and making more money as he takes care of himself. Obviously, coming from Africa helps him a little with world ranking but so does his playing style. My point is that age is not the same thing as playing level, and perceived value is about performance, not about age. Obviously, they are correlated and to some degree causally related, but it is not the case that in a skill based sport like TT, you can't play at a high level when older.

Pitchford has always had struggles in TT for many reasons and it has been widely discussed. But is it his age?

The original context was someone arguing that because Kou Lei is one of the best MLTT players at age 37, MLTT is weak. The same person wouldn't say that because Ma Long is one of the best Table tennis players at age 35, Table tennis is weak.

Obviously, some of the home grown talent is playing and learning in the league and in any case, where the league will go, no one knows. I am just trying to bring nuance to the discussion rather than take silly statements like using Kou Lei's age to question the quality of the league. Just about no high level league exists outside of Asia and Europe. At a certain point, American talent needs to take up the sport to fill the gap. Whether this is ultimately possible is an open question.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I know lots of players who play better in league than internationally and vice versa. League has its own stresses and demands as well as international play. Quadri is in some ways getting better results and making more money as he takes care of himself. Obviously, coming from Africa helps him a little with world ranking but so does his playing style. My point is that age is not the same thing as playing level, and perceived value is about performance, not about age. Obviously, they are correlated and to some degree causally related, but it is not the case that in a skill based sport like TT, you can't play at a high level when older.

Pitchford has always had struggles in TT for many reasons and it has been widely discussed. But is it his age?

The original context was someone arguing that because Kou Lei is one of the best MLTT players at age 37, MLTT is weak. The same person wouldn't say that because Ma Long is one of the best Table tennis players at age 35, Table tennis is weak.

Obviously, some of the home grown talent is playing and learning in the league and in any case, where the league will go, no one knows. I am just trying to bring nuance to the discussion rather than take silly statements like using Kou Lei's age to question the quality of the league. Just about no high level league exists outside of Asia and Europe. At a certain point, American talent needs to take up the sport to fill the gap. Whether this is ultimately possible is an open question.

well Kou Lei at age 37, is one of best in MLTT, among mostly Americans, just means Americans level is weak.
Some random Taiwanese dude goes over and is near 2700
i think he is 2650 now.

Irrespective on whether overseas young imports of high level, the domestic levels need to rise too.
2500~2600 is nothing when you want to talk about pro league. they only 2. BL or even 3. BL level only.

could the home grown 2500~2600 become 2800 after a MLTT in USA? I doubt.

As I said, 2 young early 20s Asians will be in MLTT next season, they would likely be hot favorites and help the age factor, so MLTT is not perceived as international old mans play ground

3. BL has a team which is old mans play ground - 1 or 2 40s, and 2 late 30s. They 2. BL or even 1. BL level players, but they in 3. BL to make easy wins. old mans play ground is a thing and not an insult

 

[NetProphet]

I largely agree with the caveat that star power is hard to get from younger players even when the quality is there. Pitchford is 31. He is still the #1 player in England and one of the most dangerous players in the world - he is playing laegely because his national team teammate (McBeath) liked the experience and recommended it to him.

Yes
And McBeath had a great run at the Open too, played some fantastic matches and gave KJ a game, (12, 9) in the first 2 sets.

its all about money going in, and how much roi is possible for the investments.
else, money going in will run dry and business will close if the roi model can't work.
So, audience/spectator plays a huge role in the success or failure of MLTT.

if you look at T-League or German Bundesliga, or French Pro A, the die hard club fans does have a good number.
and from there, it means there is a market and businesses/investors will continue to push funds into the club.
MLTT as far as fan numbers goes, is very worrying.

Other than that, I have mentioned about
- To afford European or Asian salaries is going to be tough.
- The league duration for only 8 teams, (1 weekend a month and for 7 months) is also very difficult to commit to. (what happens when there is 12 teams, going to take 10 months?)

But as time goes on, I am sure improvements will occur and the team budget + league duration will be look at.

I'd imagine the potential for return is massive in America. If Joola, Butterfly etc are sponsoring (along with private money and promoters) then any increase in uptake of the sport could reap huge benefits in sales of products etc. This is purely speculative from me of course but the US market is enormous so 🤞
@NextLevel are any of the MLTT teams close to you and have you been to any of the monthly matches? Or do you know anyone who has?
Be interesting to hear first hand how it is as an experience.
If they can get it close to the ITTF experience I can see it working. The 2 Frankfurt events I attended were brilliant. They did have 15 of the worlds top 20 competing but aside from that the facility, atmosphere and production was great.
I would pay to see 2700 players (McBeath etc,) in action with Pitchford, Lebesson, Lui and co.

 

[d3nium]

I always feel that McBeath should get better results than he does, his technique is effortless, lovely player to watch. I'd say he's probably the 5th best player in the UK.

 

[NextLevel]

well Kou Lei at age 37, is one of best in MLTT, among mostly Americans, just means Americans level is weak.
Some random Taiwanese dude goes over and is near 2700
i think he is 2650 now.

Irrespective on whether overseas young imports of high level, the domestic levels need to rise too.
2500~2600 is nothing when you want to talk about pro league. they only 2. BL or even 3. BL level only.

could the home grown 2500~2600 become 2800 after a MLTT in USA? I doubt.

As I said, 2 young early 20s Asians will be in MLTT next season, they would likely be hot favorites and help the age factor, so MLTT is not perceived as international old mans play ground

3. BL has a team which is old mans play ground - 1 or 2 40s, and 2 late 30s. They 2. BL or even 1. BL level players, but they in 3. BL to make easy wins. old mans play ground is a thing and not an insult

This is where we disagree and toeach his own. You wouldn't say such nonsens about CCY. I suspect Kou Lei would still beat most of the Taiwanese national team or give them a good game if sufficiently motivated. Everyone loses, even Quadri lost to a Taiwanese nobody in one match.

I am confident Kou Lei could still play on Bundesliga, definitely in French division 1, if he was sufficiently motivated. But he is not so we will never know. But if you are telling me that Kou Lei is that much worse that Sam Walker, then good luck with that.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes
And McBeath had a great run at the Open too, played some fantastic matches and gave KJ a game, (12, 9) in the first 2 sets.



I'd imagine the potential for return is massive in America. If Joola, Butterfly etc are sponsoring (along with private money and promoters) then any increase in uptake of the sport could reap huge benefits in sales of products etc. This is purely speculative from me of course but the US market is enormous so 🤞
@NextLevel are any of the MLTT teams close to you and have you been to any of the monthly matches? Or do you know anyone who has?
Be interesting to hear first hand how it is as an experience.
If they can get it close to the ITTF experience I can see it working. The 2 Frankfurt events I attended were brilliant. They did have 15 of the worlds top 20 competing but aside from that the facility, atmosphere and production was great.
I would pay to see 2700 players (McBeath etc,) in action with Pitchford, Lebesson, Lui and co.

Unfortunately the Texas events are out of Houston and that means a 4 hour drive if I can figure it out. I would have done one for sure if I was still in my old East Coast area. I could ask around but other people is not quite the same as you. But I would definitely attend if it was reasonably close (within 2 hours).

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'd imagine the potential for return is massive in America. If Joola, Butterfly etc are sponsoring (along with private money and promoters) then any increase in uptake of the sport could reap huge benefits in sales of products etc. This is purely speculative from me of course but the US market is enormous so 🤞

yes, the market potential is great no doubt.
I have been calling for this in 2012 already.

but table tennis status among the population is not there.
a lot of efforts needs to be made by the officials and private parties to get the sport into every school.
right now, it is all club based money, and main income is 1 on 1 coaching.
if all schools has the sport, then we can see growth.

mltt has a junior version too, but it is based on clubs still.
i would like to see mltt junior based on schools (school leagues)
there should be state leagues, and then the top state team compete in the mltt, or something like that.

only with 10s of thousands of schools onboard, would you have market.
right now, it is just TT people that are onboard, and that population based is minute.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

This is where we disagree and toeach his own. You wouldn't say such nonsens about CCY. I suspect Kou Lei would still beat most of the Taiwanese national team or give them a good game if sufficiently motivated. Everyone loses, even Quadri lost to a Taiwanese nobody in one match.

you are stuck with 1 player.
how many old players are in the league?

well, that nobody, is one of my players, so I know him well
he is only number 3 ~ 4 in Taiwan for past 5 years, and has a like 10-1 record against Feng Yi-Hsin the past few years. the loss was actually in 1. BL, at Feng's home ground.
He also have wins against LJK. So it is far from nobody.
probably USATT 2800 level.
if 2800 is nobody, then everyone else is nobody haha

I am confident Kou Lei could still play on Bundesliga, definitely in French division 1, if he was sufficiently motivated. But he is not so we will never know. But if you are telling me that Kou Lei is that much worse that Sam Walker, then good luck with that.

sam walker is in what division??

 

[NextLevel]

you are stuck with 1 player.
how many old players are in the league?

well, that nobody, is one of my players, so I know him well
he is only number 3 ~ 4 in Taiwan for past 5 years, and has a like 10-1 record against Feng Yi-Hsin the past few years. the loss was actually in 1. BL, at Feng's home ground.
He also have wins against LJK. So it is far from nobody.
probably USATT 2800 level.
if 2800 is nobody, then everyone else is nobody haha

sam walker is in what division??

We are back to this again. Sam Walker plays for Grenzau in Bundesliga.

For MLTT: Lebesson, Monteiro, Olah, Pitchford, Provost, Nordus, Lindquist, Kim Taehyun, Ma Jinbao, Kanamitsu. Kasahara, Aida, Angles... all 2700+ players. I probably missed a few.

All these players are still playing at a good level. Age is not the factor as age doesn't tell people how good you are. It mostly tells people you still have potential.

Being one of the best in MLTT is nothing to sniff it if it is based on your performance. Everyone loses game in MLTT.

Even if you bring in a 2800 player and he has beaten Liang Jingkun, he still has to cope with the time zone, the 3 game format, the golden game variation etc. It is not something you just walk into and say you will be undefeated in every game. If you are not top CNT in the CNT system, you lose matches because everyone has off days dealing with conditions and life and opponents are also motivated.

You know better. But if you want to promote your players and just talk about MLTT as if it isn't hard to play in, that is fine. Your player will hopefully come and show us how MLTT is supposed to be.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Unfortunately the Texas events are out of Houston and that means a 4 hour drive if I can figure it out. I would have done one for sure if I was still in my old East Coast area. I could ask around but other people is not quite the same as you. But I would definitely attend if it was reasonably close (within 2 hours).

i think this is what makes TT in USA challenging
other than a few areas, every where else are all far from each other.

My German friends would also drive 1 to 2 hours for table tennis.
but for them, 1 to 2 hours HAS a lot of table tennis going on.

MLTT should probably have 4 regions
and then a grand finals for the top 2 teams per region to make it a QF playoffs.

4 regions, should each have 6 to 8 teams, and build up spectator base in each region.

If TT people aren't even fulling up the stands, then how you going to expect non TT people to do it.

I think USA is very big and too big to make something like this work. Hence why seperating to 4 smaller regions and have each region build the market.

you need proper home and away matches, and then having 2nd and 3rd homes, to cover more area.
But i understand, there is no budget for so much traveling at the moment and you need all the teams in the same weekend to reduce traveling challenges.

Wasn't there a team that had to use crowd funding to help cover costs and to get funds to practice more together

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

We are back to this again. Sam Walker plays for Grenzau in Bundesliga.

oh yes,
a 2430 player with a 2 win, 7 loss record.
the way Grenzau is going, they going to be in 2BL in few more matches.

For MLTT: Lebesson, Monteiro, Olah, Pitchford, Provost, Nordus, Lindquist, Kim Taehyun, Ma Jinbao, Kanamitsu. Kasahara, Aida, Angles... all 2700+ players. I probably missed a few.

All these players are still playing at a good level. Age is not the factor as age doesn't tell people how good you are. It mostly tells people you still have potential.

and there we go
you the one who want to talk about age + performance
I never doubt age can't be with performance
but do you really want MLTT to be called old mans league? or the league for retirees to go?
do you even know what does that mean?
you said you know a lot of players who play leagues - me too!
when you old, you would want to make more money, have easy wins, and find a weaker league to give you both.
MLTT does not want to be in that spot, trust me on that.
go ask players if you not sure what I am talking about.

Being one of the best in MLTT is nothing to sniff it if it is based on your performance. Everyone loses game in MLTT.

Even if you bring in a 2800 player and he has beaten Liang Jingkun, he still has to cope with the time zone, the 3 game format, the golden game variation etc. It is not something you just walk into and say you will be undefeated in every game. If you are not top CNT in the CNT system, you lose matches because everyone has off days dealing with conditions and life and opponents are also motivated.

yep, time zone, changing venues every weekend (month), no proper home and away matches, but more like a tournament changing based on rotation venue.
there is never a home for you, this is very unique indeed.
leagues like UTT and CTTSL atleast use 1 venue, and 1 time period, like 1 week, to finish the league, and the few more days for playoffs.

other leagues use homes to generate audience and fan clubs. NBA and other pro sports in USA uses homes to generate its core fan base and from there build up nation wide.
MLTT wants to do nation wide from the get go.

MLTT is starting something unique and with growth, it will require a lot of money and more crowd fundings.

You know better. But if you want to promote your players and just talk about MLTT as if it isn't hard to play in, that is fine. Your player will hopefully come and show us how MLTT is supposed to be.

you need to stop denying
maybe you too attached to it.
MLTT has a lot to improve to become better, and if want to paint it as perfect, then, you will never know why it can't grow.
i am glad you are not the bosses of MLTT, hopefully they agree with me, more than agreeing with you.

The monies I am hearing for 3rd season is indeed better.
lets just hope people start measuring MLTT success based on the revenue it pulls in, than opposes to young or old players that wants to have some fun in the USA.

 

[NetProphet]

Well I can see what both of you guys are saying and personally I just appreciate the input!
I've been very curious in the MLTT project since it launched but hadn't really looked at it too much yet, it was the US open in December that piqued my interest in US TT again. I was delighted to see KJ win it as a homegrown winner gives more domestic coverage and excitement than a foreign winner so a small little boost to the overall TT profile for a few days at least!
I've watched some MLTT matches and to me the level is great and that's comparing it to European and Bundesliga. It's fast enough, technical enough and competitive enough that I enjoy to spend time watching the matches.

I will keep my eye on the NCTTA tournament in April also. I really do hope this game can take a permanent foothold in the US, it would be so great for the game worldwide!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well I can see what both of you guys are saying and personally I just appreciate the input!
I've been very curious in the MLTT project since it launched but hadn't really looked at it too much yet, it was the US open in December that piqued my interest in US TT again. I was delighted to see KJ win it as a homegrown winner gives more domestic coverage and excitement than a foreign winner so a small little boost to the overall TT profile for a few days at least!
I've watched some MLTT matches and to me the level is great and that's comparing it to European and Bundesliga. It's fast enough, technical enough and competitive enough that I enjoy to spend time watching the matches.

I will keep my eye on the NCTTA tournament in April also. I really do hope this game can take a permanent foothold in the US, it would be so great for the game worldwide!

US open has actually attract more international participants the past 2 years.

I wonder what is the overall number of US entries (flat or growth)
compared to that of international entries (which I am seeing growth).
this is good for international, and if US entries is not growing, then maybe that needs to be addressed.

I do believe TT league in USA can succeed. I have been studying leagues in depth for the past 6 months

In Europe, many TT clubs are part of bigger clubs, some of them are rich football (soccer) clubs.
I actually wondered, why MLTT can't spin off clubs with Pro basketball teams, since they do have basketball people involved.

Or even mixing with basketball stars, ie MLTT vs NBA stars or something like that.
I would even have the MLTT owners pairs with the NBA stars vs MLTT players.

There is so much PR tasks that could happen with reachable resources imo.

 

[piligrim]

You live in the western hemisphere where prior to MLTT, we've had practically nothing in terms of a pro league. Within 2 years we now we get players like Pitchford (who just beat Dima last year at 2024 Champions Frankfurt), Lebesson (XD bronze medalist 2021 Euro 2021), and Satoshi Aida (beat Simon Gauzy to win Feeder Ft Lauderdale title and *current* member of T-League, the highest league in Japan) among others. I would say it's simply not accurate at all to portray the league as "not high level" or use Kou Lei (still USATT 2800, mind you) as an example of how bad it is.

Occasional wins doesn't' mean much. Faraji good example

 

[pongfugrasshopper]

Occasional wins doesn't' mean much. Faraji good example

With the understanding that he's not Ma Long, I think it's fair to say Kou Lei as well as the others I mentioned play at a high level. Everything is relative of course, but considering the league is 2 years old I think the level is quite high. Compare the playing level in season 2 vs. season 1. And I'm hearing the level is about to get higher next season. So I'm happy with the trajectory of the league.

 

[NextLevel]

oh yes,
a 2430 player with a 2 win, 7 loss record.
the way Grenzau is going, they going to be in 2BL in few more matches.


and there we go
you the one who want to talk about age + performance
I never doubt age can't be with performance
but do you really want MLTT to be called old mans league? or the league for retirees to go?
do you even know what does that mean?
you said you know a lot of players who play leagues - me too!
when you old, you would want to make more money, have easy wins, and find a weaker league to give you both.
MLTT does not want to be in that spot, trust me on that.
go ask players if you not sure what I am talking about.


yep, time zone, changing venues every weekend (month), no proper home and away matches, but more like a tournament changing based on rotation venue.
there is never a home for you, this is very unique indeed.
leagues like UTT and CTTSL atleast use 1 venue, and 1 time period, like 1 week, to finish the league, and the few more days for playoffs.

other leagues use homes to generate audience and fan clubs. NBA and other pro sports in USA uses homes to generate its core fan base and from there build up nation wide.
MLTT wants to do nation wide from the get go.

MLTT is starting something unique and with growth, it will require a lot of money and more crowd fundings.

you need to stop denying
maybe you too attached to it.
MLTT has a lot to improve to become better, and if want to paint it as perfect, then, you will never know why it can't grow.
i am glad you are not the bosses of MLTT, hopefully they agree with me, more than agreeing with you.

The monies I am hearing for 3rd season is indeed better.
lets just hope people start measuring MLTT success based on the revenue it pulls in, than opposes to young or old players that wants to have some fun in the USA.

The young players in the league are many. They just haven't become household names or are 2600 players. Ma Jinbao, Eric Jouti, Nikhil Kumar, Adi Sareen, Nandan Naresh, Sid Naresh, Daniel Tran, Darryl Tsao and there are others. The way you see the league depends on your understanding of table tennis. Most younger players as good as Kou Lei will still be fighting on the world tour unless their country is packed with better players. And all the players in the MLTT are national team players except when their country has better players. A younger player in MLTT at 2800 needs a really good reason to be in the USA.

I am not denying anything so much as realizing that people with hidden agendas are denigrating the league and pretending to misunderstand the reality of table tennis. Anyone who is a good table tennis player in the USA can usually make more money doing something else from a young age so table tennis has to be a passion or for them or their best thing (forced livelihood). Nikhil is still playing, his father wants him to retire and come and run the family company. You will struggle to get top talent to play outside their country if their country has a strong playing league. It took Mizutani to get Togami and Harimoto to go to Europe to play.

The youngsters playing in the MLTT have a connection to the USA and the older pros all came to the USA even before the MLTT started. Table tennis is an old man's sport everywhere, the MLTT is not an old mans league outside of table tennis being an old man's sport. Yes some countries like Taiwan are investing in developing lots of kids because they don't compete for medals in the Olympics in other sports. But in the US many Asians don't train TT as much they have sent their kids to other more lucrative sports. Only the extremely passionate are left. This is true all over the world as well, Taiwan may be some magic exception.

But the main point here is that:

1) the league level is very high. The top players are world class. They may not play on tour all the time for one reason or another but they are capable.
2) the young talent in the league are not household names because there was no league before this and most people need to travel to develop their games. But players who are developing who had to travel all the time before are now staying in the US more to play the league (I listed some of them above).
3) Kou Lei is still a world class player and age should.not be used to purely argue that the league is low level. Whether a player is willing to or able to compete internationally is a separate question from the class of the player. Not everyone wants to continue to punish themselves playing on the tour. Age is a factor for sure but not in terms of playing level, but also about priorities, training ability etc.
4) people who are focusing on the age of the players and using that to define the quality of the league have an agenda they are pushing or a low level understanding of table tennis reality the world over.

And I am done.

 

[joshmak10]

Heres a good analogy for MLTT: Look at US’s soccer league MLS. Do we consider the MLS high level and among the best soccer leagues in the world just because Lionel Messi is there? Do we consider Saudi Arabia elite level one of the best leagues in the world because Cristiano Ronaldo is there? Or are the main European leagues like English, German and Spanish leagues still the best in the world because of the quality of the teams is just much better.

 

[NextLevel]

Heres a good analogy for MLTT: Look at US’s soccer league MLS. Do we consider the MLS high level and among the best soccer leagues in the world just because Lionel Messi is there? Do we consider Saudi Arabia elite level one of the best leagues in the world because Cristiano Ronaldo is there? Or are the main European leagues like English, German and Spanish leagues still the best in the world because of the quality of the teams is just much better.

This is still bad logic and not what you originally argued. Are you arguing from the quality of Ronaldo's play to the quality of the Saudi league (which is the argument you made about Kou Lei) or arguing from the quality of the the Saudi league to the quality of Ronaldo's play (a different argument)? Is Messi now a lower level player because he joined MLS? Or is the level of Messi high regardless of whether he is in MLS or not and can it be measured apart from the MLS?

No one disputes that the MLTT is not on the level of CSL, Bundesliga etc. when you look at all the players or even the format. But arguing from the age of Kou Lei and his purported playing quality on the basis of that age to the overall quality of the league is what is being questioned. I have argued that there is sufficient independent evidence that Kou Lei's level is reasonably high and that the argument from age is not a fair way to measure the quality of the MLTT. Is Eugene Wang a top performer in MLTT? What is his age?

Kanak Jha lost to no-name/random Andras Csabas in Bundesliga. Kanak Jha is one of the top players in Bundesliga by performance. Bundesliga sucks.

Qian Tianyi (former top 10 CNT) lost to amateur Kyoki Idesawa in University games. Qian Tianyi sucks.

This is what set me off in the first place. People need to do better and argue with more nuance.

 

[joshmak10]

This is still bad logic and not what you originally argued. Are you arguing from the quality of Ronaldo's play to the quality of the Saudi league (which is the argument you made about Kou Lei) or arguing from the quality of the the Saudi league to the quality of Ronaldo's play (a different argument)? Is Messi now a lower level player because he joined MLS? Or is the level of Messi high regardless of whether he is in MLS or not and can it be measured apart from the MLS?

No one disputes that the MLTT is not on the level of CSL, Bundesliga etc. when you look at all the players or even the format. But arguing from the age of Kou Lei and his purported playing quality on the basis of that age to the overall quality of the league is what is being questioned. I have argued that there is sufficient independent evidence that Kou Lei's level is reasonably high and that the argument from age is not a fair way to measure the quality of the MLTT. Is Eugene Wang a top performer in MLTT? What is his age?

Kanak Jha lost to no-name/random Andras Csabas in Bundesliga. Kanak Jha is one of the top players in Bundesliga by performance. Bundesliga sucks.

Qian Tianyi (former top 10 CNT) lost to amateur Kyoki Idesawa in University games. Qian Tianyi sucks.

This is what set me off in the first place. People need to do better and argue with more nuance.

Historically who have been the best players of the MLS besides Messi? Zlatan. Gareth Bale. Wayne Rooney. All exceptional players. Way past their primes. Older than 30 when they entered the league. They were the best in the league though.

Like I said before, Kou Lei is a great player. I love the way he plays. But you cannot argue he is past his prime. Lebesson, Angles, Pitch, Duran, McBeath, all among the greatest MLTT players. Far far far past their primes. All above 30. All really good players. But past their primes.

You cannot deny that these old stars being the face of these kinds of leagues, for any sport, are of inferior quality as to those of the big leagues and they rely on older players who are not as good as they once were to make a name for itself.

 

[NextLevel]

Historically who have been the best players of the MLS besides Messi? Zlatan. Gareth Bale. Wayne Rooney. All exceptional players. Way past their primes. Older than 30 when they entered the league. They were the best in the league though.

Like I said before, Kou Lei is a great player. I love the way he plays. But you cannot argue he is past his prime. Lebesson, Angles, Pitch, Duran, McBeath, all among the greatest MLTT players. Far far far past their primes. All above 30. All really good players. But past their primes.

You cannot deny that these old stars being the face of these kinds of leagues, for any sport, are of inferior quality as to those of the big leagues and they rely on older players who are not as good as they once were to make a name for itself.

The soccer analogies I will leave for another time. I have already explained what is wrong with them - as you get older, your priorities change and you need to be able to measure the playing level of the payer independent of the league which is harder in soccer but easier in table tennis. We have seen Satoshi Aida (who is the top performer in MLTT this year according to Power Rankings) beat Gauzy and place in the Japanese National Champs as well as the T-League. We also saw him lose to Lebesson in the MLTT when they first played. We can't measure a soccer player's playing level as easily. Zlatan when he played in MLS to me could still have played anywhere, no one would give him a chance with age and the MLS wanted that star power. That is why he was able to return to play in Europe later.

Like I said, I am fairly sure Duran, Pitchford and McBeath would be insulted if you told them they were past their prime. In life in general, everyone wants to believe that your prime years are your 20s, maybe your early 30s, especially physically and athletically. In a skills based sport like TT, you can play at a higher level past your athletic prime because the skills component may also develop and make certain things about your play smarter and more efficient. Soccer is a team sport so and it is harder to objectively measure, but similar things are true, but not in the same way as in TT.

Getting older makes it harder to recover from stress etc. But it doesn't always speak to skills and playing level. I am sure while a casual look at age would put all the players you listed past their prime in the traditional sense of the word, I am sure all of them believe other than maybe Angles, Lebesson and Duran that their best achievements are still in front of them. And even in the case of Angles, Lebesson and Duran, it isn't necessarily about their play, but about the competition. The real problem is that there are not enough spots in the Bundesliga or national team for everyone. It isn't always about the performance of the player, but about a variety of things, including the fact that people believe when you are older, you are past your potential, and when you are younger, there is always potential for growth, while the reality is that the specific player could have a story that doesn't fit into the general narrative.

I am fairly sure that Provost would have agreed he was past his athletic prime when he made his first national semis in France. That's what I am talking about here. I am also sure he would say that he feels he understands TT much more now and still has room for improvement that he can continue to work on and play at a high level, maybe even his best personal level.