Fantastic match! US Open

[schrodingerskoalabear]

US open has actually attract more international participants the past 2 years.

I wonder what is the overall number of US entries (flat or growth)
compared to that of international entries (which I am seeing growth).
this is good for international, and if US entries is not growing, then maybe that needs to be addressed.

I do believe TT league in USA can succeed. I have been studying leagues in depth for the past 6 months

In Europe, many TT clubs are part of bigger clubs, some of them are rich football (soccer) clubs.
I actually wondered, why MLTT can't spin off clubs with Pro basketball teams, since they do have basketball people involved.

Or even mixing with basketball stars, ie MLTT vs NBA stars or something like that.
I would even have the MLTT owners pairs with the NBA stars vs MLTT players.

There is so much PR tasks that could happen with reachable resources imo.

As someone who would like to see the sport grow in popularity, I like your idea of having table tennis (a) gain a foothold in the college/school system and (b) multi-pronged PR drive, e.g. long-term spin-off arrangements with sports franchises.

I am interested in hearing more about your hope for TT league in the US, @Tony's Table Tennis . Because when I look at the larger landscape, despite my dreams of the US having a robust, popular league, I am a little skeptical.

Off the top of my head, TT has larger interlinked cultural, economic, and geographical challenges which limit the league's potential more than anything. Let me talk about the first two main issues:

(i) Cultural: table tennis has the perception problem of being a basement, hobbyist or recreational game. Not enough kids are exposed and there is just a larger apathy towards the game in the population. No kid is growing up wanting to be Kanak Jha unfortunately. Most wanting to be Ma Long, FZD, etc. either are already playing the sport or have cultural connections. They are also more likely to be in the TT "zones" of the US (the east and west coast, Maryland, and a few other TT meccas).

I mean, look at how Pongbot advertises Nova S Pro for the US market. To me, it would be an training tool but I saw one of their anglo-specific ads showing people having beers, dancing, etc.

(ii) Economic: This for me, is a huge challenge in the context of the USA. It's a simple fact, there is not just enough demand for table tennis. If I remember correctly, there are roughly 15,000 (rounding up) ranked players in a population of 300 million. This compared to a lack of interest in the broader population + having to compete with other sports means, there is just no way a league can be a sustainably run on ad, attendance and broadcast revenue.

The second issue which also affects (i) is the pay-to-play model. To put it simply, table tennis is not a sport for low-income. Playing in the US, generally speaking, is prohibitive for anyone who doesn't have a decent % of disposable income. This prunes the talent pool massively only to those who can afford to play it at a high level. Add the meagre financial incentives of going pro in Table tennis and no wonder it is not considered a serious sport. To compare, in Europe and Asia, world class talent is produced because the infrastructure is designed to nurture talent despite financial background. While solution (a) can be systematically implemented to help here, (i) challenge might prove too much.

The irony is that table tennis has some of the richest people on the planet as its advocates (Buffett, Gates) and players (lots of Silicon Valley + California+ NY based/migrated players).

Maybe the only way past these very structural problems might be to brute force and have these richer advocates just pour money to subsidize TT league/tournament in the US.


PS apologies for the essay, I wanted to make full use of my lunch break

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

Getting older makes it harder to recover from stress etc. But it doesn't always speak to skills and playing level. I am sure while a casual look at age would put all the players you listed past their prime in the traditional sense of the word, I am sure all of them believe other than maybe Angles, Lebesson and Duran that their best achievements are still in front of them. And even in the case of Angles, Lebesson and Duran, it isn't necessarily about their play, but about the competition. The real problem is that there are not enough spots in the Bundesliga or national team for everyone. It isn't always about the performance of the player, but about a variety of things, including the fact that people believe when you are older, you are past your potential, and when you are younger, there is always potential for growth, while the reality is that the specific player could have a story that doesn't fit into the general narrative.

This makes a lot of sense to me and I agree with a 100% with you; on an individual basis, age does not gate performance. There are plenty of examples of this across multiple team and solo sports. Using age of an high level individual to gauge the quality of the league is without nuance, is what I got from you and I agree.

I do think though that the "perception" you highlight (and I italicized), unfortunately, does aggregate and color the view of the league as a whole. And unfortunately for us, TT enthusiasts, perception of other actors matters, especially investors, audiences, etc. I try to support the MLTT and watch as often as I can but I believe its perceived quality is underrated given the age distribution of the players (as well as probably other factors such as audience sizes, etc., current playing status, etc.)

 

[pong99]

As a long time Messi and Barca fan, I can say with a clear head that Messi is old and slow and nowhere near the player he was at Barca. MLS is a retirement tour for Messi and Inter Miami brought in a bunch of other old and slow ex Barca players - Alba, Busquets, and Suarez so Messi could have some fun with the old crew.

The old Barca gang is fun to watch because Messi is playing against defenders who are well below even his diminished level. It's no secret that Inter Miami had to construct a team that would allow Messi to play even less defense than he did at Barca/PSG so Messi could save his legs. It's great for MLS to bring in high profile names because it brings in fans. It's a win-win for everybody.

Ronaldo is certainly not maintaining his form by playing in Saudi. He is scoring against players who are many levels below him. Watch him when he plays for Portugal. There's always media about whether Ronaldo should retire from the nat'l team.

 

[NextLevel]

As a long time Messi and Barca fan, I can say with a clear head that Messi is old and slow and nowhere near the player he was at Barca. MLS is a retirement tour for Messi and Inter Miami brought in a bunch of other old and slow ex Barca players - Alba, Busquets, and Suarez so Messi could have some fun with the old crew.

The old Barca gang is fun to watch because Messi is playing against defenders who are well below even his diminished level. It's no secret that Inter Miami had to construct a team that would allow Messi to play even less defense than he did at Barca/PSG so Messi could save his legs. It's great for MLS to bring in high profile names because it brings in fans. It's a win-win for everybody.

Ronaldo is certainly not maintaining his form by playing in Saudi. He is scoring against players who are many levels below him. Watch him when he plays for Portugal. There's always media about whether Ronaldo should retire from the nat'l team.

A couple of things - football is a sport where you run around for 90 minutes, so age plays a huge role there vs table tennis, as aerobic capacity is significantly affected as you get older. Messi did not leave Barca for the US directly, Messi already had a stint at PSG before coming to the USA. The point here is that Messi is still a high level player and that was shown by his stint at PSG as well as the fact that he still gets called for the national team and performs well in national team matches. At the same level as his prime, no, not even close. But at a good level, yes. And whether MLS is a good league or not is not about the quality of Messi as a player, but the quality of the players in the league. But if there was an independent way of measuring Messi's play, then we wouldn't be arguing this. But there are ways of measuring Kou Lei's play. We can see his performance in tournaments.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Heres a good analogy for MLTT: Look at US’s soccer league MLS. Do we consider the MLS high level and among the best soccer leagues in the world just because Lionel Messi is there? Do we consider Saudi Arabia elite level one of the best leagues in the world because Cristiano Ronaldo is there? Or are the main European leagues like English, German and Spanish leagues still the best in the world because of the quality of the teams is just much better.

Angles, Aida, Eugene, Ly, Provost, Cazacu, Lebesson, Pereira, Pitchford, Jishan, Kanamitsu, Olah, Kumar, Nordberg, Lundqvist, Haocheng Wang, Kou Lei, Pistej, Monteiro, McBeath, Kasahara, Tao, Jinbao, Taehyun, Kaden, Jouti.

That is 26 players right there that have all proven to be top players at some form of continental or international level in recent times (or have an equivalent level but no opportunity such as CSL player Haocheng Wang) and/or are around 2700 or in some cases much higher.

There are 8 teams in MLTT, so about 40-48 active main players that make up the league. Take out 8 women, if you choose, from the equation and you are talking about well over half the players in your league who are 2700+ which means you are somewhere around the top 500-1000 players in the world, and have done some form of recent damage at the continental/international level.

Is that the case for over half of the players in the MLS or the Saudi Arabia league?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

well Kou Lei at age 37, is one of best in MLTT, among mostly Americans, just means Americans level is weak.
Some random Taiwanese dude goes over and is near 2700
i think he is 2650 now.

Irrespective on whether overseas young imports of high level, the domestic levels need to rise too.
2500~2600 is nothing when you want to talk about pro league. they only 2. BL or even 3. BL level only.

could the home grown 2500~2600 become 2800 after a MLTT in USA? I doubt.

As I said, 2 young early 20s Asians will be in MLTT next season, they would likely be hot favorites and help the age factor, so MLTT is not perceived as international old mans play ground

3. BL has a team which is old mans play ground - 1 or 2 40s, and 2 late 30s. They 2. BL or even 1. BL level players, but they in 3. BL to make easy wins. old mans play ground is a thing and not an insult

Who is the random dude who came over and was near 2700?

Lin I-fan? He ended up around 2650 after the LA Open, first tournaments can often lead to a bit of overrating, after his second tournament he fell to 2600, which would put him probably outside the range, or on the edge at best, of being a rosterable player in MLTT Season 2.

 

[OvrChkn]

Historically who have been the best players of the MLS besides Messi? Zlatan. Gareth Bale. Wayne Rooney. All exceptional players. Way past their primes. Older than 30 when they entered the league. They were the best in the league though.

Like I said before, Kou Lei is a great player. I love the way he plays. But you cannot argue he is past his prime. Lebesson, Angles, Pitch, Duran, McBeath, all among the greatest MLTT players. Far far far past their primes. All above 30. All really good players. But past their primes.

You cannot deny that these old stars being the face of these kinds of leagues, for any sport, are of inferior quality as to those of the big leagues and they rely on older players who are not as good as they once were to make a name for itself.

These are good points to highlight what the MLS and MLTT are trying to do to build up their profiles in the US. There is quite a bit of value for having these names though and the MLS has slowly risen in valuation/expansion over the past decade or so.

I'd be interested to see how MLTT will grow over time once they find proper footing with their vision. Granted table tennis in the US is far behind what football is to the US and the rest of the world.

 

[NextLevel]

Angles, Aida, Eugene, Ly, Provost, Cazacu, Lebesson, Pereira, Pitchford, Jishan, Kanamitsu, Olah, Kumar, Nordberg, Lundqvist, Haocheng Wang, Kou Lei, Pistej, Monteiro, McBeath, Kasahara, Tao, Jinbao, Taehyun, Kaden, Jouti.

That is 26 players right there that have all proven to be top players at some form of continental or international level in recent times (or have an equivalent level but no opportunity such as CSL player Haocheng Wang) and/or are around 2700 or in some cases much higher.

There are 8 teams in MLTT, so about 40-48 active main players that make up the league. Take out 8 women, if you choose, from the equation and you are talking about well over half the players in your league who are 2700+ which means you are somewhere around the top 500-1000 players in the world, and have done some form of recent damage at the continental/international level.

Is that the case for over half of the players in the MLS or the Saudi Arabia league?

But most of them are over 30 and past their prime. It is the age that matters not the playing level...

Edit: did you list Wang Wei?

 

[NetProphet]

These are good points to highlight what the MLS and MLTT are trying to do to build up their profiles in the US. There is quite a bit of value for having these names though and the MLS has slowly risen in valuation/expansion over the past decade or so.

I'd be interested to see how MLTT will grow over time once they find proper footing with their vision. Granted table tennis in the US is far behind what football is to the US and the rest of the world.

It's not really the same though...
Just to add some context for folk referencing the MLS and it's dealings as if any of that is somehow easy or a showcase of weakness (because these players only come when past their prime), they can only sign Messi now because of what some unheralded genius did in the 70s with Best and Pele! That's how long it took.
But Liam Pitchford, Koh Lui etc are not Messi and Bale - Ma Long and Timo would be more equivalent so again the MLS analogy doesn't work for me, the MLTT haven't done anything that big.
They've set up a competitive league and teams have brought in good quality players but not household names in world TT.
MLTT is more comparable the NASL in the late 60s when it first started, but NASL was awful. Just awful! Even in the 70s when they got George Best, Beckenbauer, Pele, Cryuff, Muller, Carlos Alverto and 40 others to play there it didn't really help...

It took football (soccer!) 50 yrs, a World Cup and a rebirth as MLS to find something that works: pro standard, top stadia, sponsorship, promotion, player development, entertainment etc.

Compared to NASL the MLTT is streets ahead in its comparative quality and they haven't even made a move for a Ma Long (Messi) or Timo Boll level player yet, which I hope they manage to do at some stage.

The achievement of MLTT so far with little (comparatively speaking) money is miraculous in my eyes and actually shows how much talent is there that we would otherwise never get to see.
It's partly why I think this game is somehow a global sleeping giant if someone can just crack how we can do it everywhere but that view may be seriously rose tinted by my own love for the game 😍

 

[NextLevel]

The achievement of MLTT so far with little money is miraculous in my eyes and actually shows how much talent is there that we would otherwise never get to see.

Financials are not public so no one knows how big or little the money is...

 

[NetProphet]

Financials are not public so no one knows how big or little the money is...

Fair point.
I may edit my post to indicate I really meant 'little' V MLS and soccer investment rather than little as if I know how much they actually spent!! 👍

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Who is the random dude who came over and was near 2700?

Lin I-fan? He ended up around 2650 after the LA Open, first tournaments can often lead to a bit of overrating, after his second tournament he fell to 2600, which would put him probably outside the range, or on the edge at best, of being a rosterable player in MLTT Season 2.

The only Taiwanese player in the MLTT this season

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Heres a good analogy for MLTT: Look at US’s soccer league MLS. Do we consider the MLS high level and among the best soccer leagues in the world just because Lionel Messi is there? Do we consider Saudi Arabia elite level one of the best leagues in the world because Cristiano Ronaldo is there? Or are the main European leagues like English, German and Spanish leagues still the best in the world because of the quality of the teams is just much better.

they are leagues for old stars to make a lot of money and extending career duration.
just like old nba players in Taiwan's basketball league.

even if you have dozens of them, the age factor does still carry such trait,

If the leagues can attract young stars and play they career in such leagues for most of they peak, then we talking about the opinion of stars seeing such league as "their main league". Otherwise, it just becoming a career extension league for older players.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

As someone who would like to see the sport grow in popularity, I like your idea of having table tennis (a) gain a foothold in the college/school system and (b) multi-pronged PR drive, e.g. long-term spin-off arrangements with sports franchises.

this is how Asia has succeeded in table tennis.
Including that of India, having academies inside schools.
you need the school population to be with table tennis from elementary age.

Europe can't do this, but they do have a much older and established club system.
USA is trying to do the club system like Europe, and very little of them are inside school.

you need state or national bodies, or someone like MLTT to start school leagues and then maybe, something can come from it.
This will also create a lot of employment opportunities (every school needs at least 1 coach, maybe many coaches).

I am interested in hearing more about your hope for TT league in the US, @Tony's Table Tennis . Because when I look at the larger landscape, despite my dreams of the US having a robust, popular league, I am a little skeptical.

it is tough.
spectatorship is terrible.
if money don't run out, hopefully they can get it right.
landing Ma Long won't do anything, unless the plan is to full up US spectator stands with Chinese fans flying in.
You need localization with local fans filling up the stands and buying the merchandises and actually follow the team, not the player.

Off the top of my head, TT has larger interlinked cultural, economic, and geographical challenges which limit the league's potential more than anything. Let me talk about the first two main issues:

(i) Cultural: table tennis has the perception problem of being a basement, hobbyist or recreational game. Not enough kids are exposed and there is just a larger apathy towards the game in the population. No kid is growing up wanting to be Kanak Jha unfortunately. Most wanting to be Ma Long, FZD, etc. either are already playing the sport or have cultural connections. They are also more likely to be in the TT "zones" of the US (the east and west coast, Maryland, and a few other TT meccas).

you are right, because table tennis isolate themselves in the USA.
If you are in schools, you would be a prime sport - since all or most of US big sports start from schools and extend from there.

I mean, look at how Pongbot advertises Nova S Pro for the US market. To me, it would be an training tool but I saw one of their anglo-specific ads showing people having beers, dancing, etc.

(ii) Economic: This for me, is a huge challenge in the context of the USA. It's a simple fact, there is not just enough demand for table tennis. If I remember correctly, there are roughly 15,000 (rounding up) ranked players in a population of 300 million. This compared to a lack of interest in the broader population + having to compete with other sports means, there is just no way a league can be a sustainably run on ad, attendance and broadcast revenue.

in Taiwan, we have probably 15000 kids playing table tennis in schools (that train and compete), that is based on a 20 million population.
schools to me is the quickest fix, and easier barrier entry - since space should be rotatable for table tennis to start in school

The second issue which also affects (i) is the pay-to-play model. To put it simply, table tennis is not a sport for low-income. Playing in the US, generally speaking, is prohibitive for anyone who doesn't have a decent % of disposable income. This prunes the talent pool massively only to those who can afford to play it at a high level. Add the meagre financial incentives of going pro in Table tennis and no wonder it is not considered a serious sport. To compare, in Europe and Asia, world class talent is produced because the infrastructure is designed to nurture talent despite financial background. While solution (a) can be systematically implemented to help here, (i) challenge might prove too much.

the US money culture of coaching is only 1 on 1 has hurt table tennis.
The same has occurred in Taiwan, but the max cost per hour is around 20 to 40 usd per hour. But the problem is, 20 hours of this a week with a coach (above 20 hours in teams training) in a month, makes its say 25 x 20 x 4 (coaching 1 on1) 2000 usd a month, vs 150 usd of teams training cost.
so the rich can succeed while poor can't improve at quick.
this is wrong and many of my coaching friends state it is wrong, since the top Taiwanese players who 25 to 35 years old, when 5 or 7 years old, didn't need a coach 1 on1.
But today, kids at 5 are starting 1 on1s already.

The irony is that table tennis has some of the richest people on the planet as its advocates (Buffett, Gates) and players (lots of Silicon Valley + California+ NY based/migrated players).

Maybe the only way past these very structural problems might be to brute force and have these richer advocates just pour money to subsidize TT league/tournament in the US.

Ariel Hsing has 2 rich uncles,
uncle bill gates
and uncle warren buffett.
I wonder how come nothing came from that.

888 is based on a multimillionaire
mltt too.

but the problem isn't how much cash you have.
but rather on the ROI potential.
you need a market, and US's tt fan base, or spectators has a long way to reach.
if Next Level or every other US based forum friends can each bring in 10 or 20 or 30 friends to full MLTT stands, then maybe that can help too.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The only Taiwanese player in the MLTT this season

Oh, Yoyo. He was brought on as a doubles specialist for Florida since they needed a lefty. He only played one singles match so far this season and lost 0-3 to Aida.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

this is how Asia has succeeded in table tennis.
Including that of India, having academies inside schools.
you need the school population to be with table tennis from elementary age.

Europe can't do this, but they do have a much older and established club system.
USA is trying to do the club system like Europe, and very little of them are inside school.

you need state or national bodies, or someone like MLTT to start school leagues and then maybe, something can come from it.
This will also create a lot of employment opportunities (every school needs at least 1 coach, maybe many coaches).


it is tough.
spectatorship is terrible.
if money don't run out, hopefully they can get it right.
landing Ma Long won't do anything, unless the plan is to full up US spectator stands with Chinese fans flying in.
You need localization with local fans filling up the stands and buying the merchandises and actually follow the team, not the player.

you are right, because table tennis isolate themselves in the USA.
If you are in schools, you would be a prime sport - since all or most of US big sports start from schools and extend from there.

in Taiwan, we have probably 15000 kids playing table tennis in schools (that train and compete), that is based on a 20 million population.
schools to me is the quickest fix, and easier barrier entry - since space should be rotatable for table tennis to start in school

the US money culture of coaching is only 1 on 1 has hurt table tennis.
The same has occurred in Taiwan, but the max cost per hour is around 20 to 40 usd per hour. But the problem is, 20 hours of this a week with a coach (above 20 hours in teams training) in a month, makes its say 25 x 20 x 4 (coaching 1 on1) 2000 usd a month, vs 150 usd of teams training cost.
so the rich can succeed while poor can't improve at quick.
this is wrong and many of my coaching friends state it is wrong, since the top Taiwanese players who 25 to 35 years old, when 5 or 7 years old, didn't need a coach 1 on1.
But today, kids at 5 are starting 1 on1s already.



Ariel Hsing has 2 rich uncles,
uncle bill gates
and uncle warren buffett.
I wonder how come nothing came from that.

888 is based on a multimillionaire
mltt too.

but the problem isn't how much cash you have.
but rather on the ROI potential.
you need a market, and US's tt fan base, or spectators has a long way to reach.
if Next Level or every other US based forum friends can each bring in 10 or 20 or 30 friends to full MLTT stands, then maybe that can help too.

888's multimillionaire multibillionaire doesn't have interest in growing the sport in the US, it is just a pet project for the owners' son to try to achieve some dream.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

888's multimillionaire multibillionaire doesn't have interest in growing the sport in the US, it is just a pet project for the owners' son to try to achieve some dream.

yep,
why should rich people grow the sport, is what I am saying
same thing with mltt
if spectator numbers don't show up, i doubt the passion of keeping a "loss making business" afloat is considered really the best.
It is nice to have a pro league for a dozen home players to earn good money.
But you can make loss for few years, you need the fan base to grow, for sponsors to come in and take over the financial burdens.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

well Kou Lei at age 37, is one of best in MLTT, among mostly Americans, just means Americans level is weak.
Some random Taiwanese dude goes over and is near 2700
i think he is 2650 now.

Irrespective on whether overseas young imports of high level, the domestic levels need to rise too.
2500~2600 is nothing when you want to talk about pro league. they only 2. BL or even 3. BL level only.

could the home grown 2500~2600 become 2800 after a MLTT in USA? I doubt.

As I said, 2 young early 20s Asians will be in MLTT next season, they would likely be hot favorites and help the age factor, so MLTT is not perceived as international old mans play ground

3. BL has a team which is old mans play ground - 1 or 2 40s, and 2 late 30s. They 2. BL or even 1. BL level players, but they in 3. BL to make easy wins. old mans play ground is a thing and not an insult

Is he that random?

 

[OvrChkn]

It's not really the same though...
To just add some context to folk referencing the MLS and it's dealings as if any of that is somehow easy or a showcase of weakness (because these players only come when past their prime), they can only sign Messi now because of what some unheralded genius did in the 70s with Best and Pele! That's how long it took.
But Liam Pitchford, Koh Lui etc are not Messi and Bale - Ma Long and Timo would be more equivalent so again the MLS analogy doesn't work for me, the MLTT haven't done anything that big.
They've set up a competitive league and teams have brought in good quality players but not household names in world TT.
MLTT is more comparable the NASL in the late 60s when it first started, but NASL was awful. Just awful! Even in the 70s when they got George Best, Beckenbauer, Pele, Cryuff, Muller, Carlos Alverto and 40 others to play there it didn't really help...

It took football (soccer!) 50 yrs, a World Cup and a rebirth as MSL to find something that works: pro standard, top stadia, sponsorship, promotion, player development, entertainment etc.

Compared to NASL the MLTT is streets ahead in its outright quality and they haven't even made a move for a Ma Long (Messi) or Timo Boll level player yet, which I hope they manage to do at some stage.

The achievement of MLTT so far with little (comparatively speaking) money is miraculous in my eyes and actually shows how much talent is there that we would otherwise never get to see.
It's partly why I think this game is somehow a global sleeping giant if someone can just crack how we can do it everywhere but that view may be seriously rose tinted by my own love for the game 😍

That was the point I was leading into in general, considering soccer does have a more worldwide appeal vs table tennis.

MLTT's just in their second season, but I'd ultimately like to see them get more spectators. The Minor League system sounds interesting to get more player participation, though I'm not privy into their details.

 

[NextLevel]

Got an email saying MLTT is going on CBS sports. Not entirely sure what it implies but sounds cool without then details.