Why amateur players should avoid fast gear and where power really comes from in table tennis.

[NextLevel]

There is a difference between blaming your equipment for how you play and trying to buy the best equipment to help you learn.

And there's a difference between 'playing like shit' and struggling to learn correct techniques (or struggling to land the ball when trying correct technique).
I've seen enough instances where the Viscaria with T05 or D05 has been replaced with a wood blade and a Rakza 7 and presto, with that big ball body motion stroke they're trying to learn, the ball lands far more often.

Yes, self diagnosis and blaming equipment in the manner you said is silly but that's not really what anyone has been saying up to now.

But is landing the ball on the table with a big stroke everything (from someone who worked hard to land the ball on the table with big strokes lol)...

 

[blahness]

Slow setups are overrated... sometimes you just want big power from small strokes, because small strokes just have better recovery and better control than big ass strokes where you just lose if the other player counters your loop. A lot of all wood players claim they can produce a lot of power - sure but can they do that close table against repeated counters/blocks? A lot of all wood players just cant hold the table well enough, they have to drop to mid distance and run for each ball because they need big strokes to maintain the same power, instead of carbon players who stay close table and dominate the rally. Same even at the pro level, for eg Gauzy - looks pretty but even he had to upgrade to a fast setup to stay on top.

Bad technique with all wood is the same as bad technique with carbon. In fact, carbon is preferable because it punishes bad technique because you can't have good control with carbon with bad technique so it forces you to rethink your technique especially in terms of spin production. But with all wood stuff even terrible looping technique can produce good spin so one can be fooled by a suboptimal stroke for a long time.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Apples and Oranges man.
I'm not sure if you read the OPs blog post (did you?) or just my post and are applying what I wrote to particular instance you know of.

That would be fair enough except the blog post is (as far as I can tell) referring to regular uncoached beginners who have kind of lost their way a little and refers to the pursuit of real proper technique and it makes a very good point as to how their equipment may not be helping.

Anyone getting the calibre of coach you refer to over a timeframe and level dedicated to breeding 2700+ players can start with whatever the coach prescribes.
There's always a few who want to say 'oh but this one guy or that one other guy' etc etc.
Those are exceptions.

Anyone is free to recommend Viscaria and exotic Butterfly stuff if they want but nobody will ever convince me that is prudent.
Unless of course your Glenn Östh and gonna spend the next 10 years with them because they have insane talent. Then yeah, go for it.
But even Wing TT describes someone figuring it out for themselves. You really think it's advisable?

Cos I reckon the two names you dropped belong exactly in the Unicorn category.
Coached unicorns.
Someone doing it themselves, starting with Viscaria & Zyreand reaching that level is a Unicorn with wings!

What does this bit mean?
You mention coaching cases above. Are you saying you've witnessed regular uncoached folk succeed on the same route?
I get the 'theres no one fits all' denomination here and not everyone goes in the same box but I feel were getting far away from the point of the article.
You seem to have lots of experience on coaching, what do you start players with, generally?

Fair enough that you can't compare development between those in professional training programs and those who aren't, but the point I was trying to make is that if reactive/fast equipment was the massive hindrance that common forum wisdom holds that it is, you wouldn't have people consistently reaching high levels (either for an amateur or a pro) when starting with it, and coaches who generally don't see it as big enough of a problem that they are compelled to immediately slow their students rackets' down when they pull up to their lesson with a Viscaria and Dignics.

You mention coaching cases above. Are you saying you've witnessed regular uncoached folk succeed on the same route?
I get the 'theres no one fits all' denomination here and not everyone goes in the same box but I feel were getting far away from the point of the article.
You seem to have lots of experience on coaching, what do you start players with, generally?

Regular uncoached folk don't succeed much at all, no matter what equipment they use - harsh reality. This is the key point that these discussions usually ignore. Improvement in table tennis is 99% getting proper instruction and putting it into practice, and 1% equipment... until you reach a certain point where it can start to matter in some cases. So focusing so much on optimizing that 1% is a fool's errand mostly.

Most students already have a suitable racket by the time they start receiving group or private instruction. The cliche in the blogpost and on so many forum posts of "beginner pulls up with ZJK SZLC and boosted H3 41" is really just not something that happens much or ever in my experience but of course everyone's experience is different. If they want a specific recommendation any medium range hardness blade and rubber is a prudent middle ground suggestion though it's always advisable to try someone else's first and see what you like if possible. The main theme is that generally no coach will recommend a beginner/intermediate to use anything on either extreme end, basically nothing super hard and stiff but also not something super slow and unreactive.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

There is a difference between blaming your equipment for how you play and trying to buy the best equipment to help you learn.

And there's a difference between 'playing like shit' and struggling to learn correct techniques (or struggling to land the ball when trying correct technique).
I've seen enough instances where the Viscaria with T05 or D05 has been replaced with a wood blade and a Rakza 7 and presto, with that big ball body motion stroke they're trying to learn, the ball lands far more often.

Yes, self diagnosis and blaming equipment in the manner you said is silly but that's not really what anyone has been saying up to now.

What do you mean by the big ball body motion stroke?

 

[andymagata]

Playing fast setup when you start to learn, with or without a coach, is bad in my case and probably for the majority of. Why? Because those early misses creates something in your brain - fear of missing.

Take the flick for example. When you first start to go all in, it is very good if a few lands. That is way easier with the slower equipment. A fast setup can mess with your brain - it is not only about technique.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Playing fast setup when you start to learn, with or without a coach, is bad in my case and probably for the majority of. Why? Because those early misses creates something in your brain - fear of missing.

Take the flick for example. When you first start to go all in, it is very good if a few lands. That is way easier with the slower equipment. A fast setup can mess with your brain - it is not only about technique.

What about super slow setups that don't give you the feeling of solid feedback when you play a strong topspin or flat hit, leading to fear that your contact was incorrect or that your shot will get returned aggressively with ease?

 

[Dr Evil]

...there are high level players with very brush technique, most notoriously Timo Boll who while having the ability to hit through the ball, brushed a lot simply because it gave extremely high reward with the celluloid balls. But all lf that seems to be gone nowadays as there is only one answer and how the plastic ball affects the issue is not often discussed.

Mostly gone at the pro level, but the slow spinny loop is still useful up to a pretty good level. I think every looper should have it his arsenal, and it's sometimes the easiest way to win a match (especially against juniors). Also makes returning tricky long serves easier, though it does sacrifice shot quality.

 

[Wakkibatty]

Some really great vids linked in the OP -- thoroughly recommend people have a look at them, they explain the whole brush vs hitting thing very succinctly.

As for the whole slow vs fast equipment thing for beginners, the issue that cuts the Gordian knot here is control.

Either you can control the ball enough to consistently put it exactly where you want on the table, using your equipment or you can't. I find that most often, if a beginner can't place the ball where they want on the table, most often their set up is too fast.

On some occasions I have seen beginners improve by switching to slightly faster equipment -- however, in such cases --more often than not -- the problem is not a lack of equipment speed, but rather improper technique creating a lack of speed. Proper technique creates it's own speed, and makes having slightly faster equipment slightly redundant.

The biggest issue I find with handing fast equipment to beginners, is that it compromises the development of their sense of touch, and as a result they don't really gain much control over match tempo.

It's far harder for a beginner to slow down fast equipment, than it is for them to speed up slow equipment. Being able to vary the playing speed of the game on demand, in order to disrupt your opponents sense of rhythm, throw off their timing of the ball during stroke play, and thereby increase their unforced error rate, is all a big part of modern tactics and strategy.

Yes extra speed and spin are great, and we all love to execute a great passing shot. But at higher levels it'sa lot more difficult to blast past your opponent with pure speed and shot quality alone. You also need a real sense of guile and finesse with your stroke play and spin variation on top of that, to win matches at the higher levels. This requires the ability to vary tempo, and play a slow patient game on occasion that employs not just power and spin, but also genuine deception at the same time.

When beginners pick up fast equipment, they can fall in love with all that extra hitting power and spin, and forget about the nuances of technique, placement, variation, deception and disruption.

The simple truth is, it is usually far easier to learn guile and nuance with slower equipment. Ideally a beginner should learn guile, finesse, deftness of touch and deceitful play first, and enormous hitting power second. The former requires lots of playing within yourself and mastering control of the ball, before learning how to put the ball away.

Yes, sometimes having greater hitting power wins you matches... But it's very, very rare nowadays for hitting power on its own to get you anywhere substantial in terms of building your rankings.

Smashing the ball first doesn't win you a match.

Getting your opponent horribly out of position first, or having them completely misread your spin, and THEN plowing past them with a smash, is far more effective

Guile, finesse, and deception are what create the openings for hitting power and speed to do their job, and win you the point. Hitting winners is only 2% of the game -- engineering a opening for a winning shots is the other 98%.

But you can't do either of these, without control.

Ball control always comes first, regardless of the playing level, or the style of play -- spin, speed and power without control or nuanced placement means you're literally just swinging and missing all the time.

 

[victormanriquey]

I would absolutely disagree with the point of even saying this, you're talking about Unicorn here.
'if they like the feel' (what beginner is going to like the feel of this? There is not feel through Viscaria and D09c. You're basically playing devils advocate just for the sake of it here.
And are the type of person who can imitate body movement'.
It's not about imitation. It's about developing the feeling, synchronisation and coordination through your legs, hips and core to arm and it is not easy. The absolute first time beginner you describe doesn't exist and if anyone tries to do it properly from the ground up they need all the help they can get from what's in their hand.

Not just that. It's possible they are but that's not the only possibility here.
It is also a time and again proven good way to help anyone who is a bit serious about learning the sport.
What you're suggesting is the 1% outlier.
I get that someone can start with middle of the road (not absolutely slow) equipment and do fine but a $400 setup like Viscaria, Zyre and 09c?
No, this is a ridiculous suggestion for 99% of absolute beginners.
You say it's about personal preference but if the preference is that of someone playing only two weeks and just likes expensive stuff then it means nothing. Also if it's someone playing a year but not really trying to learn proper technique then it also means nothing, just a 'personal preference'.
What matters, in the context of the article, is what works most of the time and here it's really hard to argue against certain equipment for a certain standard of player. Even coaches have told me it's harder to coach people with equipment they struggle to control. There's not enough margin of error for successful shot making... 🤷

I agree this beginners are rare, it requires strict coaching, a certain amount of talent and constant practice. It is possible but not easily reproducible for the target audience of the blogpost, which is 99% of all amateurs out there in the beginner-intermediate phase.

I liked the last sentence, I 100% agree to this as a amateur coach:

Even coaches have told me it's harder to coach people with equipment they struggle to control. There's not enough margin of error for successful shot making

 

[victormanriquey]

Mostly depends on if the hypothetical beginner is working with a good coach or not. If they are, starting off with reactive blades and rubbers isn't as devastating as most people insist it is.

There's a post a while back that was an old listing of the equipment of the ICC junior program's students who were at the early stages of their training, both in terms of age and level. Almost all of them were using stiff Stiga blades with Calibra rubber which would have been laughed at by most people on the forums. However, from that entire program, the students ended up USATT2000+ at worst, and as 2700+ Olympians or national team members such as Nikhil Kumar and Darryl Tsao, at best. Many such cases like this where it doesn't really matter if they're getting proper coaching from early on, it isn't only unicorns.

Yes this is what I mentioned to @NetProphet as I agree with his point of view. It is also what @passifid is mentioning. Dave from the club is most of us out there

It's exactly this what I refer to, I see most people out there, perhaps even 80% of players lost in the EJ jungle, no coach, no progress, lots of frustration and time/money wasted. That hurts the sport I love the most because when people are not motivated they stop caring and sometimes even leave the sport, such a pity.

Apples and Oranges man.
I'm not sure if you read the OPs blog post (did you?) or just my post and are applying what I wrote to particular instance you know of.

That would be fair enough except the blog post is (as far as I can tell) referring to regular uncoached beginners who have kind of lost their way a little and refers to the pursuit of real proper technique and it makes a very good point as to how their equipment may not be helping.

Anyone getting the calibre of coach you refer to over a timeframe and level dedicated to breeding 2700+ players can start with whatever the coach prescribes.
There's always a few who want to say 'oh but this one guy or that one other guy' etc etc.
Those are exceptions.

Anyone is free to recommend Viscaria and exotic Butterfly stuff if they want but nobody will ever convince me that is prudent.
Unless of course your Glenn Östh and gonna spend the next 10 years with them because they have insane talent. Then yeah, go for it.
But even Wing TT describes someone figuring it out for themselves. You really think it's advisable?

Cos I reckon the two names you dropped belong exactly in the Unicorn category.
Coached unicorns.
Someone doing it themselves, starting with Viscaria & Zyreand reaching that level is a Unicorn with wings!

What does this bit mean?
You mention coaching cases above. Are you saying you've witnessed regular uncoached folk succeed on the same route?
I get the 'theres no one fits all' denomination here and not everyone goes in the same box but I feel were getting far away from the point of the article.
You seem to have lots of experience on coaching, what do you start players with, generally?

 

[victormanriquey]

Language will always have limitations, we just take its effectiveness for granted because of how well it works, but forget how limited it can be until it fails to convey what you really mean.

The other thing that is not discussed is that there are high level players with very brush technique, most notoriously Timo Boll who while having the ability to hit through the ball, brushed a lot simply because it gave extremely high reward with the celluloid balls. But all lf that seems to be gone nowadays as there is only one answer and how the plastic ball affects the issue is not often discussed.

But is the blade price/speed the issue? My theory is that because of the importance of feedback to learn, and because most slower blades have lower vibrational frequencies, they promote significant feeling that one can use to adjust their shot and require quite a bit of work to be stiff and give fast rebound. Maybe this can be a good thing in thr absence of coaching or for a player who lacks the feeling to adjust to stiff blade feedback. But as someone who used slow all wood blades for a long time, they put pressure on aspects of your technique as well. There is no free lunch. Ans for some learners, slower blades might have too much feedback.

In the end, the key is always adaptation. I think it is not a bad idea to recommend someone slow down the setup if they play with their current setup as if it is a brick. Even having a slower blade for some practice is not a terrible idea. But the idea that someone cannot get good as a beginner using a fast setup is false, especially with this plastic ball. The issue is that people are too focused on immediate results vs what a player can adapt to. If they focused on the latter, and range trained a lot of shots to develop better grip pressure and feeling, they would be surprised by what people can play with vs what they currently play with. Though just like wood came from a living thing, players are living and adapt too and no one has a scientific way of showing what blade is optimal for you.

Thankfully we have spinsight. I used an Allwood 7ply with Zyre 04 vs an SZLC with Zyre 03. Which could I generate more spin and more speed with vs block on repeats strokes? The answer might surprise you lol.

I really enjoyed what you mentioned about Timo Boll and the celluloid ball, it's 100% correct and many people learnt that technique in the past and not struggle to adjust. It's a fantastic nuance to mention that I forgot, thanks @NextLevel !!

 

[Tyce]

I've seen enough instances where the Viscaria with T05 or D05 has been replaced with a wood blade and a Rakza 7

Which begs the question, what if they had put Rakza 7 on that Viscaria instead? Or Vega Europe, Mercury 2, 729 Super FX?

And I can actually answer that question, too. Just yesterday did I play with my Pro 01 with Super Fx on FH and Mercury 2 on BH. This was really inviting to hit through the ball and use full motion - very controlled to the point where my regular innerforce ALC with G1 and C1 felt significantly more difficult to use.

I would easily approve that combo for a beginner and just let them grow through rubber changes alone

 

[andymagata]

What about super slow setups that don't give you the feeling of solid feedback when you play a strong topspin or flat hit, leading to fear that your contact was incorrect or that your shot will get returned aggressively with ease?

I played long pips for 6 months. Personally, I knew what I was using and it was not confusing. The problem is when changing to equipment that ”should” be good at inverted offensive strokes.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yes this is what I mentioned to @NetProphet as I agree with his point of view. It is also what @passifid is mentioning. Dave from the club is most of us out there

It's exactly this what I refer to, I see most people out there, perhaps even 80% of players lost in the EJ jungle, no coach, no progress, lots of frustration and time/money wasted. That hurts the sport I love the most because when people are not motivated they stop caring and sometimes even leave the sport, such a pity.

Wow 80% of people you know are frustratedly lost in the EJ jungle and on the verge of quitting huh? We must have very different experiences. To me, most people not receiving coaching are just playing for fun and not expecting massive progress, and are aware that their lack of progress is due to lack of enough practice or guidance...not their equipment.

Are you sure that isn't hyperbole just for the sake of the blogpost?

 

[victormanriquey]

Wow 80% of people you know are frustratedly lost in the EJ jungle and on the verge of quitting huh? We must have very different experiences. To me, most people not receiving coaching are just playing for fun and not expecting massive progress, and are aware that their lack of progress is due to lack of enough practice or guidance...not their equipment.

Are you sure that isn't hyperbole just for the sake of the blogpost?

I think i worded it slightly wrong which leads to confusion sorry By 80%, I was meaning either lost in the EJ jungle or no coach/progress in the long term and frustrated with their game, even people who play for fun get frustrated often. I also said, 'perhaps even', I don't have an absolute number, have not done the research with a statistically significant sample, proper methodology, etc. Could perfectly be 60% I also mentioned that 'sometimes' they even leave the sport due to this. That last part is definitely not 80%.

If I try to quantify it now in the most objective way I can, in europe, and in the netherlands particularly, many clubs don't have a professional trainer or continuous focused practise, it could be 30-50% of clubs, hard to say as we have a lot of clubs. People keep coming to the club, making the same mistakes, and getting frustrated about it, I hear this every week during the training and during regional competitions, a good bunch of them blame the equipment at some point not being able to self-reflect on their own technique, and start talking about how they should really get a faster something (Let's say I give training to 20-35 people on a certain month, I get comments on equipment by 2-3 people weekly, usually different ones). So that's about 8-12 people complaining about equipment monthly, between 30-40% of our amateur players). A smaller % quit also, only last year we lost a fair amount of members (20%), we got many new ones, but from those who quit, for sure a group of them due to being demotivated with the sport technique/equipment, I have personal text messages about it.

Perhaps in america is totally different, that's actually good news for you guys!

I wish some dutchies and people from other countries could give the experience about people in their clubs too. How many of them are EJ-ing in total more or less, how many are frustrated with technique/equipment and how many have quit recently due to low motivation by any of those factors. Then we can compare and I will happily adjust my numbers, it can be a fun research!!

Sharp comment in any case @ThePongCommenter, thanks 🍻

Edit: Btw, I forgot to mention that there is also a group of people in our club, about 20-25% from top of mind that are totally unaware of their equipment choice. Before, many played with outdated rubbers they had for 10 years. They tried spinning but nothing worked. So they were still stuck, I bet in many clubs this is still the case. That's also a problem

 

[NetProphet]

What do you mean by the big ball body motion stroke?

Typo!
I meant big all body, as in proper use of the chain

 

[NetProphet]

Which begs the question, what if they had put Rakza 7 on that Viscaria instead? Or Vega Europe, Mercury 2, 729 Super FX?

I don't see that this question is begged at all.
Sure, through a narrow view that wishes to perhaps disagree with me (or not, I'm not sure as your post is short and focused only on approving Viscaria for beginners I think) we can choose to make this about particular equipment -Viscaria.

But isn't the broader view that you're only splitting hairs about how to slow down the equipment?

And thereby leaning towards agreement with the OP and the point is in his blogpost?

Ok, sure. Viscaria and appropriate rubbers with this plastic ball I can get behind.
But then it's all about what equipment slower than Viscaria+D05/T05 etc do we hand to those needing help, perhaps because their racket is a cannon.

That skims over you basic agreement with the initial point being made.

And I can actually answer that question, too. Just yesterday did I play with my Pro 01 with Super Fx on FH and Mercury 2 on BH.

I am not familiar with these items of equipment to be honest but I am getting that the Pro01 is a fast blade.
I'm not saying what's right for you (you also being an experienced player and non beginner) but again, to point our words to the case in point which is beginners or intermediates struggling with their game.
The OP says to look at the equipment you have and decide if it's too fast.
Just because it doesn't always apply doesn't make it a bad idea.

I've played Viscaria with D05 and also Tenergy 05 and me and other non beginners (actually decent players) found it too much.

How long and how much coaching before we'd get used to it I don't know but we can both (as non beginners) answer certain questions around this subject.
My answer is I wouldn't recommend the particular setup mentioned by Wing TT in post 6 to anyone walking into my club that wasn't either very experienced or getting regular and focused coaching.

Everyone with a different view to the OP seems to be referring to people receiving coaching. Their points are valid. But it's a different scenario that that seemingly common one being described by the OP.

 

[Oliverpool]

Thankfully we have spinsight. I used an Allwood 7ply with Zyre 04 vs an SZLC with Zyre 03. Which could I generate more spin and more speed with vs block on repeats strokes? The answer might surprise you lol.

Now stop being a tease and just tell us the result!

 

[Oliverpool]

Good content. I think the "hit then brush" metaphor can be useful, but it's also useful (especially with adult learners who like to understand why they're being told to do something) to acknowledge that it's not reflective of physical reality. Contact time between ball and rubber is on the order of 1 millisecond (not a few milliseconds), and given the limitations of nerve conduction velocity and brain computation time it's not physically possible to divide contact into two separate consciously controlled components. In fact, hitting and brushing are not even two distinct ways of contacting the ball, just labels on a continuum of racket angle and swing plane. I prefer a coach to tell me I'm "brushing too much." Others might prefer the "hit then brush" instruction. Whichever works better for you is better. Both mean open the contact angle and/or flatten the swing plane.

I agree it probably is impossible to change your stroke base on this dwell or contact time as it happens.

But I think it might be another factor that it helps with. Let’s say you are playing with a blade and or rubber that is too fast for your swing and acceleration or skill level. What you feel and your brain will likely be telling you is you are not able to grip or engage the ball enough to spin it well and the ball catapults out before you know it. Your brain then tell you to swing faster or harder to try to get more dwell or grip and your whole stoke falls apart as you just do not have the ability
To swing any faster at your current level. You probably have less whip in your stroke and maybe even slow down at contact or not complete the stroke as you are just trying hard to speed up your contact and muscle it which we all know results in even slower speed.

The opposite happens when you use a blade and or
Rubber more
Suited to you stoke speed
And acceleration. U feel a nice dwell and grip on the ball and complete your swing completely and freely. The next ball comes and you are in your zone relaxed and swinging smoothly with a wicked whip. Your topspin and loops have both speed and spin. You are enjoying your game because you are relaxed and are not forcing your swing.

This could be the reason why some people say they can “adjust” their stroke on slower or suitable equipment in “real” time. It could just be this effect and they are adjusting their stroke after the first swing.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Typo!
I meant big all body, as in proper use of the chain

As the game has changed with the current ball, I see over the last 5 years that professional coaching is moving away from the all body strokes you mention and more towards fast and compact strokes with an emphasis on speed and recovery, as the game has moved that way as well. This is also why equipment choices have trended towards faster over the past few years, at all levels.

Of course for amateurs who are not shooting to become high level players any style can work and if larger strokes is how they want to play, there is benefit to higher dwell time and less reactive equipment.