Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[Zezima]

Timing as in not how early or late you contacted the ball, but when your lower body activates vs the upper body and then the arm.

The correct activation sequence/timing is lower body first, then shortly after the upper body activates, then the arm, then the wrist+fingers. Not together or delayed too much.

It was not about the amount of body rotation - that is dependent on the incoming ball - slower balls rotate more, faster balls rotate less.

When driving the ball my hips rotate the same time as my arms.

But when looping there is like an 10-20% offset. Talking about the activation sequence. But I don't have it right 100% of the time yet sometimes its at same time and sometimes hips stay rotated.

 

[Zezima]

Here cut the video short again.

The order is wrong the drive to loop starts at the end.

The one who blocks well is the youth coach. The other 2 drills are with the younger player ~1000 rated.

Was focusing on consistency and getting the same topspin quality. Once I played with the coach I played the 1-2-3-4-5 drill. Starting slow and then very fast.

Did a few other drills like: mid then fh or bh then mid then fh or bh and so on

And in the end we did matches. I seem to have elbow problems. I realized that when it hurt when doing normal pendulum serve with a fast snap. So I had to default to reverse pendulum.

Might come from hitting hard topspins lately idk

 

[NetProphet]

Timing as in not how early or late you contacted the ball, but when your lower body activates vs the upper body and then the arm.

The correct activation sequence/timing is lower body first, then shortly after the upper body activates, then the arm, then the wrist+fingers. Not together or delayed too much.

It was not about the amount of body rotation - that is dependent on the incoming ball - slower balls rotate more, faster balls rotate less.

I would suggest the shoulder coming into it, between the upper body and arm stages

 

[NextLevel]

I think this video is a good discussion of some things amateurs get wrong in a way that not only instructs but gives you ideas you can adapt to you and see whether they help or not...

 

[Zezima]

Sorry haven't been training this week. I hit the gym and still dealing with muscle soreness all over the body on the 3rd day (I went on sunday)
Anyway I just come along this slowmo video. I think I was overthinking my backstroke too much. It seems other pro players do it aswell.

here perfectly visible. Not even hitting with a fully open arm.
There are some other examples aswell.

So I think I will pause with this thread for now atleast. What was important was getting the right feeling at the contact and getting low. I will not overthink about everything else and will just trust my bodymotion that it will do it right.

What was important was that I finally can differentiate between a good contact and a not so good/bad contact. So I know what feeling I am gonna chase in training.

What I need to figure out is how to plan my trainings better so I can replicate those fh shots in a match aswell. Positioning myself after 3rd ball wrong is not gonna help me hit more forehands or active strokes overall. Maybe I will be able to find a tall player around 1600-2000TTR to learn from about positioning since I can't just copy omar or other pro players since they play a different game than us.

League starts this Friday against the best team in the league but I will just focus on what I have been training lately and hit as many good fh as possible and don't play scared since either way the outcome will be the same. Also excited to play with Korbel the other half of the season.

I might start another thread which will be more matchfocused. But earliest next week.

 

[sebi]

I think you improved a lot but you can´t compare match play with training, especially when the pro is in an awkward position.

 

[dingyibvs]

Sorry haven't been training this week. I hit the gym and still dealing with muscle soreness all over the body on the 3rd day (I went on sunday)
Anyway I just come along this slowmo video. I think I was overthinking my backstroke too much. It seems other pro players do it aswell.

here perfectly visible. Not even hitting with a fully open arm.
There are some other examples aswell.

So I think I will pause with this thread for now atleast. What was important was getting the right feeling at the contact and getting low. I will not overthink about everything else and will just trust my bodymotion that it will do it right.

What was important was that I finally can differentiate between a good contact and a not so good/bad contact. So I know what feeling I am gonna chase in training.

What I need to figure out is how to plan my trainings better so I can replicate those fh shots in a match aswell. Positioning myself after 3rd ball wrong is not gonna help me hit more forehands or active strokes overall. Maybe I will be able to find a tall player around 1600-2000TTR to learn from about positioning since I can't just copy omar or other pro players since they play a different game than us.

League starts this Friday against the best team in the league but I will just focus on what I have been training lately and hit as many good fh as possible and don't play scared since either way the outcome will be the same. Also excited to play with Korbel the other half of the season.

I might start another thread which will be more matchfocused. But earliest next week.

What do you mean open? She's fully, fully open (externally rotated). Do you mean it's not fully extended? You definitely don't need to fully extend it, even many Chinese don't do that these days. From straight arm loops using the entire arm to not even fully extending the forearm for some, the modern game has indeed trended significantly towards shorter motions. The full opening of the arm is important (again, it's like a clapping motion), that gives you a lot of the forward going motion required to hit into the blade.

I wouldn't bother too much with applying technique changes in matches. When you get to the footwork stage it can help a bit, but when you're correcting basic strokes it's useless. Just too many things to think about and too many variables to apply things in match situations.

 

[NetProphet]

Sorry haven't been training this week. I hit the gym and still dealing with muscle soreness all over the body on the 3rd day (I went on sunday)
Anyway I just come along this slowmo video. I think I was overthinking my backstroke too much. It seems other pro players do it aswell.

here perfectly visible. Not even hitting with a fully open arm.
There are some other examples aswell.

The real truth is that some of us will never develop the feeling and connection through our legs and core that allows our brains to operate 'feet first' at this speed. It's sad but true. But to react with your legs before your arm requires a brain body connection that requires us to instinctively know where our feet need to be so our hand can be where the ball will be in 0.5 seconds via a sequence of activated internal levers in the same 0.5 seconds.
Most of us would have been lucky to BH that ball with quality. To pivot as she does and play a shot like that is pretty unreal.
Her arm dropped/stretched as much as it needed to before her body started directing it to its necessary end point. That's that, at the speed of light and with such athleticism it's an absolute wonder to behold (imo).

You cannot take example from such an instinctive and reactive shot that incorporates footwork like that and a shift of balance so extreme that she ends up in the floor afterwards to say ah she didn't extend her arm here (or some other observation) so I don't need to either...

How did she practice for years to follow the ball around the table and lead every shot with her feet rather than her arm is what I believe the real question ought to be...
But the initial problem with your backstroke was that it wasn't a function of your body rotation. It was too much swinging the arm back by itself.

 

[Zezima]

What do you mean open? She's fully, fully open (externally rotated). Do you mean it's not fully extended? You definitely don't need to fully extend it, even many Chinese don't do that these days. From straight arm loops using the entire arm to not even fully extending the forearm for some, the modern game has indeed trended significantly towards shorter motions. The full opening of the arm is important (again, it's like a clapping motion), that gives you a lot of the forward going motion required to hit into the blade.

I wouldn't bother too much with applying technique changes in matches. When you get to the footwork stage it can help a bit, but when you're correcting basic strokes it's useless. Just too many things to think about and too many variables to apply things in match situations.

Yeah I was talking about the arm not extended. When I was doing good quality shots but had my arms not extended people criticized it. But now I think it's overrated.

 

[vossi39]

But now I think it's overrated.

It‘s not overrated

Found this video and this guy has exactly the same problem and listen what the coach tells him. And he has the same issue in play. The dry strokes without the ball look fine, but as soon as he tries to hit the ball, he reverts back to old habits, but thinks he actually changed something.

 

[Wrighty67]

It‘s not overrated

Found this video and this guy has exactly the same problem and listen what the coach tells him. And he has the same issue in play. The dry strokes without the ball look fine, but as soon as he tries to hit the ball, he reverts back to old habits, but thinks he actually changed something.

I watched this and thought exactly the same thing - amazing how he changed almost nothing despite the clear feedback.

 

[sebi]

It‘s not overrated

Found this video and this guy has exactly the same problem and listen what the coach tells him. And he has the same issue in play. The dry strokes without the ball look fine, but as soon as he tries to hit the ball, he reverts back to old habits, but thinks he actually changed something.

when people compare the stroke to fan zhendong or ma long and don´t notice, that they lift their arm before they swing forward, they are a completely useless coach.

 

[NetProphet]

It‘s not overrated

Found this video and this guy has exactly the same problem and listen what the coach tells him. And he has the same issue in play. The dry strokes without the ball look fine, but as soon as he tries to hit the ball, he reverts back to old habits, but thinks he actually changed something.

Man this video so perfectly encapsulates the difficulty we all have to unlearn a subconscious habit.
So many times I do stuff exactly like this and I think I'm doing what I was asked but the minute I look at the ball the old habit immediately resurfaces!
It's frustrating as hell to spend days screwing it up and adjusting to a new timing because of a forced change like this.
Absolutely great if you can crack it of course but a nightmare while you're chasing it, and so tiring mentally.
Have coaching again on Monday, haven't seen him since October, I'm almost afraid of what I'm gonna hear! 😂

 

[dingyibvs]

I watched this and thought exactly the same thing - amazing how he changed almost nothing despite the clear feedback.

Not that amazing lol, this is exactly how adults trying to change their technique is like. The higher the level, the more it's like that.

 

[NextLevel]

I watched this and thought exactly the same thing - amazing how he changed almost nothing despite the clear feedback.

He changed things, they were visible in the ball effect to the coach. They just didn't change to the extent that they were visible to the camera. In reality this is how many of us change even when a coach gives us extreme instructions. Once the ball shows up, the changes are fairly narrow but they do exist even if imperceptible to someone watching. But they have to show up in the ball quality.

 

[NextLevel]

It‘s not overrated

Found this video and this guy has exactly the same problem and listen what the coach tells him. And he has the same issue in play. The dry strokes without the ball look fine, but as soon as he tries to hit the ball, he reverts back to old habits, but thinks he actually changed something.

Again, he did change. Just not as much as ideal.

 

[NextLevel]

when people compare the stroke to fan zhendong or ma long and don´t notice, that they lift their arm before they swing forward, they are a completely useless coach.

Well, tell that to Fang Bo, who emphasises that every loop has to start from below the table even vs topspin.

 

[Zezima]

April Update from my last training session:

Serve return with 1900RC (he is the 2nd best player currently in our county)

And a short display vs a 1250 in a trainingsmatch

So I am either too relaxed and play loose. Or too focused but my trainingspartner is unconcentrated? But it is what it is.

Either way lets see what you have to sa about the first video especially against block about my weightshifting.

 

[Lula]

April Update from my last training session:

Serve return with 1900RC (he is the 2nd best player currently in our county)

And a short display vs a 1250 in a trainingsmatch

So I am either too relaxed and play loose. Or too focused but my trainingspartner is unconcentrated? But it is what it is.

Either way lets see what you have to sa about the first video especially against block about my weightshifting.

I am not the correct person to say this but really it do not need to be perfect. As long as you get spin and power and it works in game play.
This video was much better than the first one because you move your feet well. Also seems like you get spin and power.

The game is so fast nowadays so maybe do not have the time to turn up the body as much. But if you play this far away you could.
I feel like the motion seems a bit strained, like you pushing to get power. I think you could think of a golf swing, baseball or when you want to throw something away. Or like you turn this drum thing

.
You move then body, the arm is relaxed and follow then use the arm actively.
To be able to do so i think you need to turn up the body more in the beginning and have arm in 90 degree angle in elbow joint almost at 90 degree angle to the right side of you. Then do the same as you do, turn the body and try to stop before shoulders get square, then also stop with forearm so forehand snap. But maybe not functional if it goes very fast or you play close to the table.
But then again i think it looks pretty good. Maybe easier to practice:
- half long balls and loop loop, then you need to get good forearm motion to create spin and arc for the ball to go over the net
- multiball: dead balls hit with only blade and then you need to really power through with body to create body
- even more footwork: moves good but seems to sit a bit on the heels sometimes. Harder to move and the power go less forward.

Once again im not the one to say, but many times we probably do not need to have the perfect technique. Sometimes im coaching with another coach that was a head coach for our national team in the golden era. He is not as picky as me with technique, is of the opinion that everyone plays differently.
Keep up the good work.

 

[Zezima]

I am not the correct person to say this but really it do not need to be perfect. As long as you get spin and power and it works in game play.
This video was much better than the first one because you move your feet well. Also seems like you get spin and power.

The game is so fast nowadays so maybe do not have the time to turn up the body as much. But if you play this far away you could.
I feel like the motion seems a bit strained, like you pushing to get power. I think you could think of a golf swing, baseball or when you want to throw something away. Or like you turn this drum thing

.
You move then body, the arm is relaxed and follow then use the arm actively.
To be able to do so i think you need to turn up the body more in the beginning and have arm in 90 degree angle in elbow joint almost at 90 degree angle to the right side of you. Then do the same as you do, turn the body and try to stop before shoulders get square, then also stop with forearm so forehand snap. But maybe not functional if it goes very fast or you play close to the table.
But then again i think it looks pretty good. Maybe easier to practice:
- half long balls and loop loop, then you need to get good forearm motion to create spin and arc for the ball to go over the net
- multiball: dead balls hit with only blade and then you need to really power through with body to create body
- even more footwork: moves good but seems to sit a bit on the heels sometimes. Harder to move and the power go less forward.

Once again im not the one to say, but many times we probably do not need to have the perfect technique. Sometimes im coaching with another coach that was a head coach for our national team in the golden era. He is not as picky as me with technique, is of the opinion that everyone plays differently.
Keep up the good work.

I am not sure if I understood what you mean.

Right now I do seem to struggle vs empty slow shorter close to the table balls because if I try to accelerate it goes out even though it has arc and curves down. But because of the incoming sidespin (if they serve pure sidespin) I am scared to brush it too slow. And even if it would land on the table its either too short or too slow and I am not getting the initiative that I want.
I see franziska using his legs like me rotating into the table on half long balls with a lot of speed. But my balls tend to go out more. With my technique that is more upwards naturally I am not so scared of the net really.

And even here vs block my followthrough motion stops very close to my head armpit wide open and lifted too much up imo. It should end more in front of my head I think armpit not lifted so much that the angle is above or 90°