TT11 Blind Rubber Test

[NextLevel]

To be fair I feel like Zyre-03 is not exactly made for USATT 2000~ players. Maybe more like 2400. Just being honest.

So no, that'd be in the category of "not seriously using" .



What about if they used a 4mm pre-made 5ply? Would it still be as valid?

Haha. And Hurricane? And Dignics 09c and Tenergy 05?

Everyone has opinions. They are cheap to have until you actually have to test them. If using a slower balde than usual $)for you with Zyre 03 makes you a lower level player, then you just described Kana Jha, Lin Yun Ju, and Joao Geraldo amongst others.

If using an all wood blade makes you an amateur, you just described a lot of pros including Kristian Karlsson.

But if your opinion is that only players above certain rating can use Zyre, I had that opinion at one time and now use it on both sides. I also know people who thought backhand looping was only for professionals or that carbon blades were only for pros etc. In the end, beliefs without aignificant evidence are just that. As a moderator, I am using polite language lol.

 

[NextLevel]

I was able to try out a Z03 on a Timo Boll ALC and I'd have to hit my forehands from across the country, even when engaging the sponge. I can see for my level using it on a 5-ply blade. It might even be a good pair for pips players.

This happens to players at all levels so it is not specific to you. The next step is whether you are willing to play with it for long enough to figure out adaptive mechanisms or you just decide yhat that was enough to know the costs outright any benefits and it is not for you. I tried to different slower blades and played reasonably well with it. Then I changed to a faster blade again and gave up on it. Then went to an innerforce blade and tried it again. I decided that the all wood blade is fine and makes it feel a bit more like speed glue where you could use a relatively slow blade with a light head and get benefits from the speed of the rubber.

 

[Archosaurus]

Haha. And Hurricane? And Dignics 09c and Tenergy 05?

Everyone has opinions. They are cheap to have until you actually have to test them. If using a slower balde than usual $)for you with Zyre 03 makes you a lower level player, then you just described Kana Jha, Lin Yun Ju, and Joao Geraldo amongst others.

If using an all wood blade makes you an amateur, you just described a lot of pros including Kristian Karlsson.

But if your opinion is that only players above certain rating can use Zyre, I had that opinion at one time and now use it on both sides. I also know people who thought backhand looping was only for professionals or that carbon blades were only for pros etc. In the end, beliefs without aignificant evidence are just that. As a moderator, I am using polite language lol.

I get what you're coming from, and I don't disagree (Hell, I was one of the proponents of using tacky backhand rubbers before it was cool) but it's more a thing about expectations.

The rubber is most likely designed for quite high level players using stiff blades. You're going to get wildly varying different opinions on it if you change those variables. At least judging by what Butterfly says about it.

 

[NextLevel]

I get what you're coming from, and I don't disagree (Hell, I was one of the proponents of using tacky backhand rubbers before it was cool) but it's more a thing about expectations.

The rubber is most likely designed for quite high level players using stiff blades. You're going to get wildly varying different opinions on it if you change those variables. At least judging by what Butterfly says about it.

So how does that distinguish the rubber from any modern high level rubber being used today? You might think you arr se saying something insightful about Zyre, but for it to be insightful, the experimental context might be more important than you appreciate.

 

[Archosaurus]

So how does that distinguish the rubber from any modern high level rubber being used today? You might think you arr se saying something insightful about Zyre, but for it to be insightful, the experimental context might be more important than you appreciate.

No, not insightful, just an opinion. It'd be insightful if I posted the performance curves of the rubbers and showed where different people fall on it.

I do plan to give Zyre-03 (or a similar new style rubber) a good 4 months or so at some point, because that design should be the way forward. I'm sure it'd be usable to even lil' ol' me, with a forgiving enough blade.

 

[NextLevel]

No, not insightful, just an opinion. It'd be insightful if I posted the performance curves of the rubbers and showed where different people fall on it.

I do plan to give Zyre-03 (or a similar new style rubber) a good 4 months or so at some point, because that design should be the way forward. I'm sure it'd be usable to even lil' ol' me, with a forgiving enough blade.

It sounds like one of those opinions that physics lovers claim to have and based on nothing but the fact they think they know physics and it gives them a right to say they understand things they really don't. I mean it is okay for someone to claim that a 2000 level player shouldn't be using Zyre, but on the basis of what, especially if the player's results don't suffer as a result of the switch?

Other than financial and switching costs, there really isn't a strong argument for the kind of equipment elitism that many people dwell on. It's just interesting to hear a player who really should know the limitations of his own experience making that kind of argument lol. Maybe when you post video your play, people will understand.

As a reference, here are highlights of a match. The opponent is using LYJ SZLC + Platinum Helix XH. I am using Hadraw VK + Zyre 03. Can you tell the disparity?

 

[ajtatosmano2]

True. They are all mostly Hurricane and ESN users. And yes, they should present their usual setup for contrast in these reviews.

Dani Kosiba (the pro player) trains at our club sometimes, he plays with a FZD ALC + T05.

 

[Archosaurus]

It sound like one of those opinions that physics lovers claim to have and based on nothing but the fact they think they know physics and it gives them a right to say they understand things they really don't. I mean it is okay for someone to claim that a 2000 level player shouldn't be using Zyre, but on the basis of what, especially if the player's results don't suffer as a result of the switch?

Other than financial and switching costs, there really isn't a strong argument for the kind of equipment elitism that many people dwell on. It's just interesting to hear a player who really should know the limitations of his own experience making that kind of argument lol. Maybe when you post video your play, people will understand.

As a reference, here are highlights of a match. The opponent is using LYJ SZLC + Plainum Helix XH. I am using Hadraw VK + Zyre 03. Can you tell the disparity?

No, I didn't say that. I said it's not designed for 2000 level players or for wood blades. Maybe? Maybe not. It's a product they need to sell after all, so it still has to be friendly and useful with a lot of setups. The sponge shouldn't be that much harder than something like Hurricane 3 or Dignics 05 and those are super popular options for all kinds of players.

If you think that's some kind of personal attack or a judgment on what kind of equipment you're using, that's on you. Anyone who pays for their own stuff and plays for fun can use whatever they want. Wasn't meaning it like that.

I mean, I'm using rubbers that are according to the internet only for demigods who can "activate the sponge", because I prefer them to "more appropriate alternatives". I didn't like the "better" rubbers; played worse with them in the ways that are important to my game. So I get where you're coming from.

 

[NextLevel]

Dani Kosiba (the pro player) trains at our club sometimes, he plays with a FZD ALC + T05.

Sergei claimed to he prefers ESN in the video or tends to review ESN rubbers more favorably on average so that is interesting, lol.

 

[NextLevel]

No, I didn't say that. I said it's not designed for 2000 level players or for wood blades. Maybe? Maybe not. It's a product they need to sell after all, so it still has to be friendly and useful with a lot of setups. The sponge shouldn't be that much harder than something like Hurricane 3 or Dignics 05 and those are super popular options for all kinds of players.

If you think that's some kind of personal attack or a judgment on what kind of equipment you're using, that's on you. Anyone who pays for their own stuff and plays for fun can use whatever they want. Wasn't meaning it like that.

I mean, I'm using rubbers that are according to the internet only for demigods who can "activate the sponge", because I prefer them to "more appropriate alternatives". I didn't like the "better" rubbers; played worse with them in the ways that are important to my game. So I get where you're coming from.

It's because I remember all the posts you have made in the past and you still have this habit of trying to convey expertise you really don't possess. Remember that there are a lot of modern defenders that use fast rubbers in various contexts, especially on the forehand. You seem to think you know things you don't know about rubber design and table tennis, why not just actually get to a level of appreciation of the game when you can speak from experience and with intelligence rather than pretense? I guess I will leave it at that. The bottom line is if someone else had said it, I would have taken it differently (NDH has made similar statements). You saying it shows how hard it is for a leopard to change its spots.

 

[Zezima]

I like the attempt but sadly it doesn't provide any useful information. You can't confidently judge a rubber within minutes. First minute it's impossible to chop and the next it's really good?

Best way to find out if the setup suits you is to play matches imho. I want to see how you perform when under pressure and your subconscious kicks in.

I myself tried some other setups where sometimes it felt even better than my own setup when doing rythmic FHT vs block or just open up without moving. And then played much worse in a match losing all confidence.

Finding the suitable rubber is just not a matter of playing a few minutes and it takes weeks if not months to decide if you want to continue or not. But thats not what EJs want to hear.

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

I enjoyed the video overall, as I do with many of their equipment videos. It’s not perfect but they present it well and get multiple opinions. I would like part 2, a non-blind test where they know which ones are Butterfly rubbers ; )

 

[Lando]

I enjoyed the video overall, as I do with many of their equipment videos. It’s not perfect but they present it well and get multiple opinions. I would like part 2, a non-blind test where they know which ones are Butterfly rubbers ; )

Is it kosher to say that I think tt11 doesn't really enjoy butterfly equipment or am I stepping on toes

 

[Archosaurus]

It's because I remember all the posts you have made in the past and you still have this habit of trying to convey expertise you really don't possess. Remember that there are a lot of modern defenders that use fast rubbers in various contexts, especially on the forehand. You seem to think you know things you don't know about rubber design and table tennis, why not just actually get to a level of appreciation of the game when you can speak from experience and with intelligence rather than pretense? I guess I will leave it at that. The bottom line is if someone else had said it, I would have taken it differently (NDH has made similar statements). You saying it shows how hard it is for a leopard to change its spots.

It's unrelated, but since you kind of brought it up and made this all about me and not the rubber:

I've been flamed for making comments about things of my own design in places where people didn't know it was me. You know, objectively correct insider info, from the horse's mouth. Still got flamed and told to stop pretending like I know things.

I've seen worse done to people who are multiple levels beyond me in the same thing, with pretty much identical reactions. Even if you're top of the world, people will have a problem with what you're saying and demand that you don't say it. Even if that opinion comes from several million dollars of testing and exclusive insider information and extremely high level of personal ability.

Those top of the world people aren't even a little abrasive like I am, they're much more modest and conservative, and still get flamed like crazy.

That's my experience, so I don't think improving my play level or level of knowledge would actually change how you specifically react to my posts. Like you said, it's about the person and the history, not the post, anyway.

 

[NextLevel]

It's unrelated, but since you kind of brought it up and made this all about me and not the rubber:

I've been flamed for making comments about things of my own design in places where people didn't know it was me. You know, objectively correct insider info, from the horse's mouth. Still got flamed and told to stop pretending like I know things.

I've seen worse done to people who are multiple levels beyond me in the same thing, with pretty much identical reactions. Even if you're top of the world, people will have a problem with what you're saying and demand that you don't say it. Even if that opinion comes from several million dollars of testing and exclusive insider information and extremely high level of personal ability.

Those top of the world people aren't even a little abrasive like I am, they're much more modest and conservative, and still get flamed like crazy.

That's my experience, so I don't think improving my play level or level of knowledge would actually change how you specifically react to my posts. Like you said, it's about the person and the history, not the post, anyway.

Alright, continue to do you. I will continue to make your brand obvious.

 

[Archosaurus]

Alright, continue to do you. I will continue to make your brand obvious.

I don't feel like arguing endlessly, but thanks for the offer.

I don't really feel like posting in a place where the staff has a personal problem with me either, to be completely honest. It's clear I'm not allowed to post here.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't feel like arguing endlessly, but thanks for the offer.

I don't really feel like posting in a place where the staff has a personal problem with me either, to be completely honest. It's clear I'm not allowed to post here.

You have a right to that opinion as it is contradicted by all the available evidence - no one has deleted any of your posts, they are only being challenged/corrected by me in a way that should be expected just as my posts get challenged if I say something someone finds questionable. I just won't allow this continued pretense, more so with your history, that absent evidence of significant improvement, you have suddenly become an informed expert on what players significantly above your playing level are supposed to be able to play with based on how a rubber was purportedly designed. You can decide to leave the site because of me, you won't be the first or the last. But complaining about the source of a challenge is your prerogative.

 

[Archosaurus]

You have a right to that opinion as it is contradicted by all the available evidence - no one has deleted any of your posts, they are only being challenged/corrected by me in a way that should be expected just as my posts get challenged if I say something someone finds questionable. I just won't allow this continued pretense, more so with your history, that absent video, you have suddenly become an informed expert on what players significantly above your playing level are supposed to be able to play with based on how a rubber was purportedly designed. You can decide to leave the site because of me, you won't be the first or the last. But complaining about the source of a challenge is your prerogative.

I'm curious; is there actually anyone else who thinks I'm masquerading as an expert who has some kind of real insight into Butterfly's design process? Like, are people reporting my posts to you?

 

[NextLevel]

I'm curious; is there actually anyone else who thinks I'm masquerading as an expert who has some kind of real insight into Butterfly's design process? Like, are people reporting my posts to you?

I think I am just about the only one who is still here from when you last posted. And no, no one is reporting anything. I am not acting as a moderator in my current capacity either. You are the one who is making that an issue.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think I am just about the only one who is still here from when you last posted. And no, no one is reporting anything. I am not acting as a moderator in my current capacity either. You are the one who is making that an issue.

Okay, so if I understood everything right:

You have a problem with my posts because I post them and not the content of my posts. You wrote as much.

Nobody else has a reported problem with my posts. You wrote as much.

Nobody else on the forum "calls out my brand" because they weren't around when I started posting ie: they haven't seen my match play and don't know that I'm a sub-1500 player on a good day. I'm just piecing this one together myself.

If the problem is not the content of my posts, and it's not me being a low level player evident by how many other low level players frequent the forum, the only thing that's left is that it's a me problem.

Now, from just a logistical standpoint, how do you think this can be solved?