Brushing the ball is useless? (World champion FangBo‘s training class)

[doppelganger_LT]

Guys, I need some opinions. Just watched World champion FangBo‘s training class on Youtube, forehand and backhand topspins. And he said that the main problem with everybody at the club is that they try to brush the ball, which is useless. The main goal in topspin must be to hit through the rubber as to engage the blade and then the forward motion adds the spin. Another confusing thing was about the grip – in his opinion, the thumb and index fingers should only be used for feeling the angle and providing direction, while the most power is from holding the middle finger and squeezing the handle in the palm.
Here are the videos:

 

[dingyibvs]

The short answer is that he's right. The more nuanced answer is that brush loop has its place, but most of the time you should practice the "hit-then-brush" technique as it adds power (speed + spin) and safety.

As for the finger usage, he's basically teaching the "relax-then-tighten" technique. During most of the forward swing your muscles in your arm/hand should be relaxed and simply be dragged forward by your legs/body. Just before contact, the muscles tighten in sequence, with the hand muscles being the last ones to do so. That's the "activation sequence" that creates a whip-like motion that gives maximum power and dwell. The thumb and index finger pressure tends to change the racket angle, so they're more for directing the ball, while the rest of the hand is for tightening the grip and is more a part of the activation sequence for power generation.

 

[Dominikk85]

I think what is important for pros doesn't matter for the average Player. Sure at the Pro level nowadays you play more fast loops rather than slow, super spinny loops.

Even timo boll who is famous for his slow loops said due to plastic ball he now tries to hit through the ball more.

But I think for amateur players I still is good to learn to brush the ball.

 

[Migzkulit]

The short answer is that he's right. The more nuanced answer is that brush loop has its place, but most of the time you should practice the "hit-then-brush" technique as it adds power (speed + spin) and safety.

As for the finger usage, he's basically teaching the "relax-then-tighten" technique. During most of the forward swing your muscles in your arm/hand should be relaxed and simply be dragged forward by your legs/body. Just before contact, the muscles tighten in sequence, with the hand muscles being the last ones to do so. That's the "activation sequence" that creates a whip-like motion that gives maximum power and dwell. The thumb and index finger pressure tends to change the racket angle, so they're more for directing the ball, while the rest of the hand is for tightening the grip and is more a part of the activation sequence for power generation.

What this man just said. Looking at my own stroke, I do the same things he says. And I know my forehand is fundamentally sound because of years of structured training.

The Brush Loop often only happens to me when it's on a half long serve. Because you're waiting for the ball and reading it, you do not have the time or the space to hit more forward.
Imagine being righty vs lefty and they serve to short forehand and the ball falls off the table.
Can't hit and brush, there can you?

Also main reason is, High ball? Gozo probably gonna eat that for lunch. 100 km/h fastball to your side of the table.

Speed + spin + arc + direction is what consists of a good attacking loop.

But you should be able to do both when it is necessary.

 

[NextLevel]

Guys, I need some opinions. Just watched World champion FangBo‘s training class on Youtube, forehand and backhand topspins. And he said that the main problem with everybody at the club is that they try to brush the ball, which is useless. The main goal in topspin must be to hit through the rubber as to engage the blade and then the forward motion adds the spin. Another confusing thing was about the grip – in his opinion, the thumb and index fingers should only be used for feeling the angle and providing direction, while the most power is from holding the middle finger and squeezing the handle in the palm.
Here are the videos:

Language can be an impediment to learning physical actions. Just try whatever you think you understand from what he is saying and if it improves your stroke, awesome. And if not, keep doing what you have always done.

I agree that in principle, your stroke needs to expose as much surface area to the ball as possible in order to reduce the possibility of whiffing and to produce directional impact but it also needs to be somewhat tangential or off center to produce spin. Finding the right combination that makes sense to you is not an intellectual activity, it requires lots of practice and experimentation and sometimes coaching. And of course, sometimes the right equipment, hitting the ball with the wrong kind of equipment can produce the wrong results.

So take whatever you understand from what he is saying and try it out and if it works for you, great. Most players who train a lot and get reasonably good figure out stuff like this at some point in their training. But whether they would all describe it exactly like the video and whether their correction will leave them looking and looping like Fang Bo is another story entirely.

 

[kindof99]

Slow spinning loop is a good way to learn to create spin in loop. Powerful loop can't be learn without this step. A good coach would be able to tell you this, not just that it is not useful. QSB also teaches how to create spin with the brush motion, it is just that brush motion is not enough to a higher level /loop.

 

[Lowday20298]

Not quite, even pros don't always hit through.

But us as common mortals, if we try to do that in the local league we'll be getting destroyed 0-3/0-4 all day long.

They say there's a time and place for everything, in this case that's true for the pros. For us common mortals we have to choose when to brush and when to hit through.

Brushing is important because you get spin and high arc which gives safety, it's the main topspin you're gonna do because you want to hold onto points and work around them, like chess.

Hitting through everything is impossible and even pros don't do it all the time. Watch Timo when he does open ups, he brushes more often than he hits, and that's true with most pros.

Other than the Chinese very little players hit through the open ups. Even on normal topspins some pros, sometimes brush over hitting through to get more arc.

Watch how the Chinese topspins go flat while pretty much everyone else's have a curve to them. Hitting through everything and always on the topspins is Chinese philosophy.

If you get the opportunity hit then hit. Just don't blame it on the equipment when you miss half of them for trying to do it all the time.

90% of the time, brushing like everyone else will let you stay in the point.

 

[kindof99]

Consider the hit/friction ration from 100:0, Brushing is on the other end of hitting and it is important to learn. I believe most amateurs have problem with brush motion like I used to do. And without brushing, one just can't go to a higher level.

 

[NextLevel]

Consider the hit/friction ration from 100:0, Brushing is on the other end of hitting and it is important to learn. I believe most amateurs have problem with brush motion like I used to do. And without brushing, one just can't go to a higher level.

The thing is that with even when someone like Timo Boll drives through the ball more, it still looks like excessive brushing. In the end, just focus on your consistency and ball quality, the technique doesn't always look like you think it should. I mean can anyone tell when Kanak is looping vs punching/driving the ball on his backhand? Anyone? Seriously?

 

[iammaru]

It’s not like brushing is useless. I think he just exaggerated it, what he meant was you should hit through the ball more and make solid contact. Many people are obsessed with brushing the ball, making very thin contact, and it’s not necessarily a good habit. It may reduce unforced errors in some way but if you try too hard to brush every ball, it can hurt you as well.
Anyway you need to know both ways. In certain situations, more hitting is better and other situations, more brushing is better. Just don’t blindly do just one thing all the time.

 

[kindof99]

Professionals rarely do pure smash. They usually implement some spin to increase the safety.

 

[doppelganger_LT]

The short answer is that he's right. The more nuanced answer is that brush loop has its place, but most of the time you should practice the "hit-then-brush" technique as it adds power (speed + spin) and safety.

As for the finger usage, he's basically teaching the "relax-then-tighten" technique. During most of the forward swing your muscles in your arm/hand should be relaxed and simply be dragged forward by your legs/body. Just before contact, the muscles tighten in sequence, with the hand muscles being the last ones to do so. That's the "activation sequence" that creates a whip-like motion that gives maximum power and dwell. The thumb and index finger pressure tends to change the racket angle, so they're more for directing the ball, while the rest of the hand is for tightening the grip and is more a part of the activation sequence for power generation.

Thank you, makes sense!

 

[doppelganger_LT]

I think what is important for pros doesn't matter for the average Player. Sure at the Pro level nowadays you play more fast loops rather than slow, super spinny loops.

Even timo boll who is famous for his slow loops said due to plastic ball he now tries to hit through the ball more.

But I think for amateur players I still is good to learn to brush the ball.

The point is that it's the master class for average club players and those are advices fir average player technique.

 

[gordonluvsu]

Brushing the ball has its place and its time.
But it also has its downsides and drawbacks:

• Is really dependent on the incoming ball
• Takes time to execute precisely
• Requires more "finetuning" and accuracy in hitting
• Is hard and risky to "scale",
  meaning its difficult to put more body parts and energy into the ball
  without risking that it will go out, fly too high, go into the net or something similar
• when you try to add power, the ball doesnt get much better
  adding 20% body power doesnt add too much energy to the ball
• Player needs to be careful and "hold them self back" a little
• Too much spin without the supporting power behind it is prone to mistakes
• Gives the opponent more time to react, speed is the most effective pressuring aspect in a shot

"Hitting" the ball more than just brushing, like they are showing, solves a lot of those issues.
Especially with a chinese style rubber.

• Can "overpower" and "override" the incoming ball ( most of the time)
• Doesnt require that much finetuning or accuracy in hitting, ( goes with 1. point and playing under pressure )
• Easy to scale in power and energy,
  use more body parts and better economy of motion,
  "just go harder",
• Player doesnt need to restrain themselves as much,
  Important for playing under pressure where mind and body is higher in tension
• Gives the ball speed AND spin
• Less time for opponent to react, more effective and puts more pressure on them ( most of the time )
• Can be more risky at times but also less risky at times, depends

Ovtcharovs forehand has been more brushing than hitting for a lot of his career.
Also in part due to his tensor-type equipment.
That equipment gives speed naturally and if you brush it gives spin.

Obviously also Timo, but for him it suits his playstyle and his abilities more than Dima.
Dima is a power and rally player and his forehand has never been as strong as anyone of the CNT for example.
He probably puts more pure power into his shots.
But when he puts a lot of power into the ball, it doesnt translate into a super-powerful loop.
Still worldclass of course, but not super high and powerful either.
Same for Harimoto, but he is changing it up more and its getting better.


My advice:

Learn both
Gather experience
Figure out what works for you and what doesnt
Know when to apply which one according to your intentions

Table tennis does not function in absolutes and fixed sets of guidelines, but in relatives.

 

[longrange]

I'd like to add that there's another facet of this modern loop-driving technique: it allows the opponent to block easier. The more translational momentum there is on the ball, the less your opponent feels the spin. If you can give pure topspin with barely any speed—this is a very tough ball to handle.

But the video is about stable training and there's nothing to argue against in its context.

 

[Attitude]

Since my post here https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/how-do-i-resolve-some-of-my-critical-errors.32450/
and several comments like the ones from @Zwill and @dingyibvs i see it more like Fang Bo. Not just for training purposes but to hit the ball more clearly and more consistent. Though i still struggle to break the habbit of more brushing than actual hitting the ball myself.

But i assume they are correct because while i was searching for other solutions and different methods and changes i still struggle with propper hitting and still have the mentioned issues like hitting edges and the fails that happen in that exact video like dropping shots and having inconsitencies.

Yeah brush loops are dangerous and you definitly need those close and lower to the table, but that is not the usual shot you will face most of the time. Especially later on you get more open up rallies in which brush looping can fail you.
Although it is still a good method to change things up, because variation is key anyway, propper hitting and feeling the ball better will bring better results over all.

​

 

[blahness]

It's not rocket science. What he really means is if you brush loop without sufficient normal force (ie thin brush) it is really easy to miss the ball and miscontact the ball. But if you do a thick brush (ie brushing contact but with a lot more normal force), it actually improves consistency, and you also have plenty of power.

 

[NextLevel]

I'd like to add that there's another facet of this modern loop-driving technique: it allows the opponent to block easier. The more translational momentum there is on the ball, the less your opponent feels the spin. If you can give pure topspin with barely any speed—this is a very tough ball to handle.

But the video is about stable training and there's nothing to argue against in its context.

There are definitely pros to brushing and spinning more. I play that style so I should know, but as everything else it has its cons.

I think you others have pointed out the main point of the video, that brushing so much you raise the risk of whiffing the ball is bad, but the reality is that the path to fixing this is different for everyone because for most people, it will be subtle improvements of their current technique and ball contact through training and not whole sale changes to their current technique. In fact, as I have said, while Timo brushes much less today, it isn't always obvious when you watch his technique what has changed, but if you as him he will tell you the changes were significant. That is also how I feel about when I fixed my topspin technique to make it solid contact on both sides, it felt very different and I got more consistent, but when you watch the video, you don't see any obvious changes

 

[longle]

brush loop most of the cases do not carry enough "weight" and can be easily countered, especially at higher levels

 

[Gozo Aruna]

One must understand the psyche of Chinese to understand Fang Bo's explanation.

• But first let me make an uneducated guess w.r.t. European psyche.
• Euro loves fine dining. They go to Michelin star restaurant, sit down for two hours talk about absolutely nothing important, eat some small little nibbles and pay USD 250.00 / pax for some snails and weird stuff.
• Similarly, Euro loves to spin and loop and rally with each other 10. 15 or 20 rallies to get a point. Very spectacular. Very nice to spectate. All show and spectacle like those gladiatorial theatrics.
• Chinese loop is like Chinese take-away. It is fast, it is cheap, it is delicious. And we eat honest to goodness decent food like duck or chicken feet, pig's lungs, brains and fermented too-foo.
• Similarly Chinese loop is like that. No loopy loopy all showy stuff; we love'em fast & efficient; it is one loop one kill, just like Chinese take-away.
• p/s Gozo loves Euro play, hence he is doing the loopy-loopy thingamagik with his balls.