Why it is hard for umpires to call hidden serves

[Dominikk85]

This is what I mean when I say players don't really want to change the culture. They can fix some of this by actually making some of these things illegal and adjusting their body orientation a bit. However history and tradition and refusing to retain their serves are still king

Yeah I think players and ittf don't want change. You can cheat a little and punishment only comes if you are going really overboard with it.

If you want to regulate it make the rule that at contact no other body part can be closer to the net than ball and bat, I.e you have to hit in front of the body and not besides it.

That would basically mean you have to BH serve (although you could do it awkwardly with the forehand too but that wouldn't make much sense).

 

[NextLevel]

Yeah I think players and ittf don't want change. You can cheat a little and punishment only comes if you are going really overboard with it.

If you want to regulate it make the rule that at contact no other body part can be closer to the net than ball and bat, I.e you have to hit in front of the body and not besides it.

That would basically mean you have to BH serve (although you could do it awkwardly with the forehand too but that wouldn't make much sense).

Samsonov did it for years, Bernie and Ding did the Tomahawk. It is not *that* awkward. But it does require changes.

 

[Shine]

I think they need to redefine what an illegal serve is.

If they were to really call illegal serves according to the current rules, then all pendelum, reverse pendulum, hook and shovel serves are illegal by default. Since the proper technique that most pro’s use, requires you to lean into the ball when contacting. This increases the spin and control of placement when serving.

But this technique also makes the ball disappear behind the face of the serving player. Even on Timo Boll his serves the ball disappears behind his nose and chin right before he hits the ball:
View attachment 29449

Nice reference

 

[vanjr]

Impossible to call many illegal serves when one sits where the umpire does. They simply cannot see. Need an umpire behind the receiver.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am just curious: do you guys really think this is a big issue? Do the top players seem affected by the things that are prevalent but against the letter of the rules? Yeah, probably they should change the wording of the rules.

But when the ball goes behind someone's head for a moment but the contact is clear and unimpeded, and it does not affect the ability of the receiver to see, read and receive the serve, how much of a concern is it?

When you guys play, are you consistently faced with players whose serves are challenging to receive because of the fact that the server is not adhering to the service rules?

 

[blahness]

I think they need to redefine what an illegal serve is.

If they were to really call illegal serves according to the current rules, then all pendelum, reverse pendulum, hook and shovel serves are illegal by default. Since the proper technique that most pro’s use, requires you to lean into the ball when contacting. This increases the spin and control of placement when serving.

But this technique also makes the ball disappear behind the face of the serving player. Even on Timo Boll his serves the ball disappears behind his nose and chin right before he hits the ball:
View attachment 29449

No, you can lean into the ball and time it so that your head goes beyond the ball after the ball has passed your head, thereby not blocking the view from your opponent. Truls Moregardh does this all the time and his serves are mostly clean.

 

[blahness]

I am just curious: do you guys really think this is a big issue? Do the top players seem affected by the things that are prevalent but against the letter of the rules? Yeah, probably they should change the wording of the rules.

But when the ball goes behind someone's head for a moment but the contact is clear and unimpeded, and it does not affect the ability of the receiver to see, read and receive the serve, how much of a concern is it?

When you guys play, are you consistently faced with players whose serves are challenging to receive because of the fact that the server is not adhering to the service rules?

It's a slippery slope. If that is allowed then am I allowed to completely hide the ball with my entire body and then rotate my bodt all out just before contact so that the opponent only sees the 100ms of contact? Isn't that not that different from the classic hidden serve?

 

[Amayzde]

I am just curious: do you guys really think this is a big issue? Do the top players seem affected by the things that are prevalent but against the letter of the rules? Yeah, probably they should change the wording of the rules.

But when the ball goes behind someone's head for a moment but the contact is clear and unimpeded, and it does not affect the ability of the receiver to see, read and receive the serve, how much of a concern is it?

When you guys play, are you consistently faced with players whose serves are challenging to receive because of the fact that the server is not adhering to the service rules?

Exactly, lets not try to solve a problem that doesnt exsist. I rarely see pros complain about the opponents serve.

TTD had done quite a few videos on Par Gerell and his serves. When you read the comments its mostly people saying that his serves are illegal.

But I have watched a few matches of Par Gerell playing against Ma Long, Wang Hao and Wang Chuqin (when he was like 17). They didnt seem to have a problem with his serve at all.

I have only seen it twice where a pro player complained about the opponents serve at WTT tournaments:
Truls Moregard against Wang Chuqin.
Timo Boll against Lin Shidong.

Both complaints were about their hook serves.

 

[Metaxa]

I think they need to redefine what an illegal serve is.

If they were to really call illegal serves according to the current rules, then all pendelum, reverse pendulum, hook and shovel serves are illegal by default. Since the proper technique that most pro’s use, requires you to lean into the ball when contacting. This increases the spin and control of placement when serving.

But this technique also makes the ball disappear behind the face of the serving player. Even on Timo Boll his serves the ball disappears behind his nose and chin right before he hits the ball:
View attachment 29449

Now this is not really a good example. The camera setup is much higher than what ML could actually see. Put that camera at eye level and I'm already more in agreement.

 

[Metaxa]

Indeed, hiding or not hiding the ball with your body/head is strictly forbidden but that rule should be rewritten. From me, an opposing player is allowed to throw his ball behind his back if he can, as long as I can see the ball at the point of contact with his racket.
What is many times worse and the umpires rarely, if ever, reprimand on this (there is an official hand signal for this, however) is that the server uses his serve from above the table and can take huge advantage of it as a result of making the playing area smaller. VERY important for playing your third ball!
If you watch the videos with Kenta Matsudaira.

I always thought LJH was the champion in that but was mistaken. Any service by Kenta from the side of the table is illegal. Yet I never see any reprimands against him.

 

[Dominikk85]

I am just curious: do you guys really think this is a big issue? Do the top players seem affected by the things that are prevalent but against the letter of the rules? Yeah, probably they should change the wording of the rules.

But when the ball goes behind someone's head for a moment but the contact is clear and unimpeded, and it does not affect the ability of the receiver to see, read and receive the serve, how much of a concern is it?

When you guys play, are you consistently faced with players whose serves are challenging to receive because of the fact that the server is not adhering to the service rules?

I saw an interview with a player who was asked about it and he said it doesn't bother him too much because he reads more the first bounce of the ball rather than the opponent motion.

Can't really judge that comment though

 

[Atas Newton]

I am just curious: do you guys really think this is a big issue? Do the top players seem affected by the things that are prevalent but against the letter of the rules?

I think it is a big issue, because it's giving those who do it an unfair advantage, even if insignifacnt. Some of the players don't even attempt to hide the serves - maybe they reckon it's unsportsmanlike, or maybe they just stick with the same serves since early days and they happen not to be hidden. Point is, you can't just go "well hide your serves too then, what's the problem", because some people won't and then the playing field fails to be level.

As to how insignificant all this is, I dunno if "they never complain to the umpire" is a good argument. First, they do complain. Timo did it recently quite openly, so did Truls in the same tournament, only he didn't complain to the umpire but to his coach. Which brings us to the second point: they know it probably won't change anything. If the umpire is so inclined as to call these kinda serves, he'll do it. If he's not, you're not gonna change his mind, so why bother.

 

[Johnniedarko]

I think it is a big issue, because it's giving those who do it an unfair advantage, even if insignifacnt. Some of the players don't even attempt to hide the serves - maybe they reckon it's unsportsmanlike, or maybe they just stick with the same serves since early days and they happen not to be hidden. Point is, you can't just go "well hide your serves too then, what's the problem", because some people won't and then the playing field fails to be level.

As to how insignificant all this is, I dunno if "they never complain to the umpire" is a good argument. First, they do complain. Timo did it recently quite openly, so did Truls in the same tournament, only he didn't complain to the umpire but to his coach. Which brings us to the second point: they know it probably won't change anything. If the umpire is so inclined as to call these kinda serves, he'll do it. If he's not, you're not gonna change his mind, so why bother.

In the clip of Timo it seems to me that he is complaining about the angle of the throw, not the hiddenness of the serve? The commentators seem to think so at least.

And that angle is allowed by the rules (up to 30 degrees from vertical), so no error from the umpire.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it is a big issue, because it's giving those who do it an unfair advantage, even if insignifacnt. Some of the players don't even attempt to hide the serves - maybe they reckon it's unsportsmanlike, or maybe they just stick with the same serves since early days and they happen not to be hidden. Point is, you can't just go "well hide your serves too then, what's the problem", because some people won't and then the playing field fails to be level.

As to how insignificant all this is, I dunno if "they never complain to the umpire" is a good argument. First, they do complain. Timo did it recently quite openly, so did Truls in the same tournament, only he didn't complain to the umpire but to his coach. Which brings us to the second point: they know it probably won't change anything. If the umpire is so inclined as to call these kinda serves, he'll do it. If he's not, you're not gonna change his mind, so why bother.

The other point is the skill level of the hidden serves and the follow up of the opponent. Some players don't take major advantage of the hiding and their serves are what they are. But some players actually do make serves that are incredibly difficult to read from the bounce trajectory (good hook serving is notorious for this). In fact, when a player is called a great server, it is not because they hide their serves so much as the combination of the hiding and the serve quality makes the serve very difficult to read. So a hidden serve is nor a big deal until the hiding is done by a server who makes it incredibly difficult to read what the serve is doing from thr trajectory. And then follows up loose returns with accurate kills.

So yes, it is a problem at the pro-level just as it is at the amateur level but just like everything in TT, the speed of the game and the quality of thr opponent's third ball makes it a bigger problem in some contexts than others.

 

[NextLevel]

Exactly, lets not try to solve a problem that doesnt exsist. I rarely see pros complain about the opponents serve.

TTD had done quite a few videos on Par Gerell and his serves. When you read the comments its mostly people saying that his serves are illegal.

But I have watched a few matches of Par Gerell playing against Ma Long, Wang Hao and Wang Chuqin (when he was like 17). They didnt seem to have a problem with his serve at all.

I have only seen it twice where a pro player complained about the opponents serve at WTT tournaments:
Truls Moregard against Wang Chuqin.
Timo Boll against Lin Shidong.

Both complaints were about their hook serves.

I have seem way more than that, but again, it goes to skill level.

 

[NextLevel]

In the clip of Timo it seems to me that he is complaining about the angle of the throw, not the hiddenness of the serve? The commentators seem to think so at least.

And that angle is allowed by the rules (up to 30 degrees from vertical), so no error from the umpire.

The angle of the throw is partly what creates the hidden serve (throwing it backwards to a point of invisibility). And there are other things about throwing the ball into the racket but that's not the point. The problem with non vertical tosses is that the forward momentum of the ball from the toss is easier to turn into trajectories that do not reveal themselves.

 

[dingyibvs]

It's a slippery slope. If that is allowed then am I allowed to completely hide the ball with my entire body and then rotate my bodt all out just before contact so that the opponent only sees the 100ms of contact? Isn't that not that different from the classic hidden serve?

But the ball doesn't really matter now, does it? It's the racket motion that generates spin, and there's no rule preventing you from hiding the racket until just before contact. You know where the ball is gonna be at at any given moment, as well as when it'd be struck, as soon as it's tossed. Hidden serves aren't meant to hide the ball, it's to hide the racket motion and contact point on the racket at the point of contact.

 

[blahness]

But the ball doesn't really matter now, does it? It's the racket motion that generates spin, and there's no rule preventing you from hiding the racket until just before contact. You know where the ball is gonna be at at any given moment, as well as when it'd be struck, as soon as it's tossed. Hidden serves aren't meant to hide the ball, it's to hide the racket motion and contact point on the racket at the point of contact.

That is true that you can hide the racket until just before contact. But hiding the ball makes it such that it is a lot more difficult to track the ball movement as you do lose some useful visual information.

 

[NextLevel]

But the ball doesn't really matter now, does it? It's the racket motion that generates spin, and there's no rule preventing you from hiding the racket until just before contact. You know where the ball is gonna be at at any given moment, as well as when it'd be struck, as soon as it's tossed. Hidden serves aren't meant to hide the ball, it's to hide the racket motion and contact point on the racket at the point of contact.

It's to hide both, both are important. The whole picture contains information, knowing how the racket is travelling into the ball is perfect information, but hiding the ball by definition makes the contact hard to discern. You want go take a mental picture of how the ball was contacted

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Perhaps unrelated:

During yesterday Final of the WS & MS World Cup, SYS was faulted twice for faulty service. First was low toss and the second was for tossing the ball into the body ( non vertical toss )

ML was faulted once for low toss serve. Maybe the umpire heard our ( the TT fanbase ) grivances regarding unsportsmanlike serve.

Perhaps???