Changing from offense to defense: Short or long pimples?

[Amayzde]

Hi folks,

I have always had a weaker backhand. I would say its pretty decent now. I score alot of points with slow spinny backhand openups, but its not a Darko Jorgic like killer.

Whenever my opponent starts putting pressure on my backhand I find myself stuck blocking, walking away from the table and start lobbing.

I tried adopting a few of Simon Gauzy’s tricks. He does alot of strawberry slices and flicks, chopblocks and chops to disrupt the opponent or slow the rally down.

Although my attempts arent that effective and often go wrong. Whenever I do get them right I find myself getting alot of joy by disrupting my opponent.

This made me think about maybe trying out defensive style with pimples. The more I think about it, the more I start to like te idea.

Im also kind of an equipment junky, and I have played with lots of different rubbers. I occasionally swap bats with some clubmates that had short or long pimples for the fun of it, but I have never bought a pimple rubber.

Alright, lets get to the title of the topic:
Transitioning from offense to defense
Has anyone here made a drastic change in playing style like this? Was it a succes? Or did you eventually go back to a normal backhand rubber?

I saw a video of Pongfinity where Emil tried out the long pimple rubber for his backhand. It looked like it was very difficult and unnatural for him to adjust.

I feel like it wouldn’t be this difficult for me since I occasionally swap bats with long pimple players, and I seem to adjust quite quickly.

Short or long pimples?
So most defensive players (atleast that I know of) use long pimples. But I also noticed that 1 Japanese defender uses short pimples to defend (I googled him, his name is Yuto Maramatsu).

So why would anyone choose to use short pimples for defense? What are the advantages opposed to long pimples for defense? And what are the disadvantages?

Also, what sponge thickness should I take for long pimples? I definitely don’t want OX long pimples. A few of my clubmates play with these and I tried to play a match against one of them with their own bat. It felt very difficult to anything else then push or block. Although I had a good laugh, those are not for me since I also want to play away from the table.

When it comes to specific rubbers, for long pimples I was thinking about Victas Curl P1, and Spectol S1 for short pimples.

Let me know your thoughts!

 

[Way Zooted]

I think you might need to narrow down the style of play you are planning with the pips. That is mainly what dictates the equipment.

(Typically) Long & thin pip, more sponge & less grip for longer range, "traditional" chopping and against strong topspin players. Long OX at the table blocking. Short & grippy for change of spin, more attack and against players that don't topspin well.

Some other play styles to consider...
Long: Gionis, Filus, Florian Bluhm, Daniel Kleinert
Long OX: Liu Song, Manika Batra
Short: Hou Yingchao, Wang Yang
Inverted: Satoshi Aida, Kirill Gerassimenko

 

[Zeen]

yeah, style matters a lot.
You could play an agressive counterattacking style, a style that focuses on variation or a purely defensive style that aims to outlast your opponent.

This will influence the choice of pips and blade. The more aggresive and variation you play the shorter the rallies. If you want longer rallies you need to be extremely safe and stable.

For example, if I choose a very slow blade like donic defplay, I cannot play a style where I attack every loose ball. This blade wants long rallies and play slow spin.
If I choose non-grippy long pips, I need to expect getting attacked hard and long rallies.

I am experimenting with grippy long pips at the moment. Great for spin variation, but you need to learn new strokes and find ways on how to balance effectiveness with safety.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

SP are more difficult to use when actually chopping, they are less absorptive and more spin-sensitive and require fast footwork and good form to both get in position and to keep the ball low when chopping, and they are not as naturally tricky vs LP at closerange. The strengths of SP in playing a defensive chop game is that you can change the spin on chops a lot easier, and keep a tighter table game because of the higher grip, and maintain a stronger ability to attack.

LP are less able to generate spin, but they are a lot easier to use when it comes to resisting and returning spin. You can use LP easier to do weird things like punch/sideswipe backspin and chopblock topspin, and there are more chop-friendly LP available than there are SP that are popular for chop defense.

 

[Metaxa]

If you like getting on people's nerves I recommend Wobbler...

 

[JJ Ng]

It is important for you to enjoy your playing style.

I am a bit dumbfounded by people trying different blades with different rubbers. You cannot tell sh*t.

You have to either keep the blade the same, or keep rubbers the same across different blades to have any idea what you are doing.

I have 16 of my blades (it costs only $40 per blade so it is not Lin Yun-Ju Super ZLC that costs $900 a piece; ok I am exaggerating).

I think the first step to anyone want to experiment a new style is to GET TWO BLADES of the SAME MAKE and MODEL! That is the first step. I see the original poster uses Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon which I have one myself. It is a very good nice blade that is affordable. So the first step is to buy another one and ask for a similar weight as your current main blade.

Second step is to keep your current blade and set up and see if you really enjoy having inverted on the BH side and fool around with spinning it all different way Ander Lind's style (if you watch Ander Lind's official youtube channel, you will know what I mean; crazy spins, crazy shots, crazy angles). Alternatively, you can also do defensive style using inverted rubber AKA Adam Bobrow style. Ander Lind and Adam Bobrow have this innate touch and feel for table tennis that you simply cannot teach. Yes you can learn it over time but some people are just more talented than the others. Plus Adam Bobrow plays every single day I am sure. So maybe you are lacking some of those touches so you want to change the BH to pips

Third step, when you start a new style do NOT look for a long pips with wobbling effects. You are trying to get used to a new rubber. You don't need the ball wobbling all over the tables and, let be honest, wobbling off the tables thereby you lose the points outright. Start with a long pip rubber that is very steady and boring so you get used to chopping and defending. Butterfly Feint Long is known to be very very stable with good control. It was not made to wobble the ball to confuse your opponents and also in the process confuse you even further. I think OX would be best. however, Ma Lin Carbon is not a fast blade. Plus if you have played with your clubmates' OX long pips and you do NOT like it, then trust your instinct. Feint Long II sems to be more stable than Feint Long III. So get Feint Long II on the backhand of your second blade.

Four step: enjoy! Play with the new set-up 80% of the time. But fool around with your old set-up 20% of the time. After a while, do you like your new set-up with long pips or not? If so, then for your old set-up, slap a different long pips with different sponge thickness to EJ.


Finally short pips are for aggressive choppers. Don't use short pips far away from the table. You are not going to have fun with that set-up right now.

 

[Amayzde]

Okay so to elaborate more on the playstyle I want to play. I wouldn’t say I want to be the kind of defender that just chops away from the table to outlast my opponent.

I think I would still mainly play offensive with my forehand. But with my backhand I would probably be mainly defensive, occasionally twiddling to block or topspin to add some variation.

I think if I have to name a pro player I would want to play like then I would pick Ruwen Filus. But of course I have to figure out what works for me.

 

[Draycott old man]

I'm using Dr Neubauer Aggressor Pro 1.5 mm on my B.H it's a Medium Pimples I feel I've got the best of both worlds as I can attack and produce really awkward ball that your opponent seems to put in the net so often!!!! Then you can just block balls and get backspin or a float very tough to read !!! Plus I can chop which doesn't get the most backspin ever but enough to confuse your opponent!!! My F.H is Nittaku Sieger PK 50 mm really spinney!!! My Blade is Dr Neubauer Matodor an excellent choice for anyone using Anti or Pimples!!!

 

[Way Zooted]

Filus uses Feint Long 3 which is a gripper pip. Curl P4 would be more similar than P1. They aren't as reactive to spin like short pips but you can still add a bit of your own spin to set up a forehand attack or twiddle for a backhand attack.

 

[JJ Ng]

Okay so to elaborate more on the playstyle I want to play. I wouldn’t say I want to be the kind of defender that just chops away from the table to outlast my opponent.

I think I would still mainly play offensive with my forehand. But with my backhand I would probably be mainly defensive, occasionally twiddling to block or topspin to add some variation.

I think if I have to name a pro player I would want to play like then I would pick Ruwen Filus. But of course I have to figure out what works for me.

I think Ruwen Filus uses Feint Long? You can google it and find out.

I am not saying you will be a defender all the time. But when you switch from inverted to long pips, you want a stable long pips to understand what pips is all about. Then after that transition period, if you want to find a long pips that wobbles, you can.

You want your transition to be fun. Take one step at a time to keep it fun.

 

[Ultravisitor]

Okay so to elaborate more on the playstyle I want to play. I wouldn’t say I want to be the kind of defender that just chops away from the table to outlast my opponent.

I think I would still mainly play offensive with my forehand. But with my backhand I would probably be mainly defensive, occasionally twiddling to block or topspin to add some variation.

I think if I have to name a pro player I would want to play like then I would pick Ruwen Filus. But of course I have to figure out what works for me.

The transition to long pips is very hard and tedious. Long pips are hard to play on fast blades. Anything faster than ALL in the beginning makes it hard to learn IMO. So also need to get accustomed to a slower fh.

Coming from inverted rubber I suggest you start with feint long 2 or 3. Fl3 has more grip and is slower than Fl2. Fl3 plays a bit more like inverted, but you need to good chopping motions to get good backspin. Fl2 is easier to play defence with IMO.

On another note, I think it's easier to train a better BH than to switch to pips. My guess is that it takes you at least a year ( training 2-3 times per week) to get to your old level, no guarantee that you even reach it.
Maybe try some more different bh rubbers.

Is there a chopper in your club that you can learn from? If not don't bother...

 

[merlin el mago]

Usually short pips for attack & long pips to deffend.

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

Whenever my opponent starts putting pressure on my backhand I find myself stuck blocking, walking away from the table and start lobbing.

It sounds like a situation, which you could train with somebody. Maybe I miss the point or not understand you correctly... but you do not like when you must defend... and because of it you would like to change your style just into a pure defence? Really?🤷‍♂️

You play with Ma Lin Carbon. It's a good blade for SP, so my recommendation is... do not change your style drastically but try to adapt that BH short pips attack style. Stay active and just replace your BH with Spinfire, and you will see if it could solve your issues. Go for 2.1mm, Spinfire is very good on FH as well. Sometimes it's very helpful to have flexible sides, e.g. when game goes wrong and it's necessary to change something.

Spinfire is easy to play, there are many happy videos like this one >

Otherwise 1.5mm is a recommended thickness for a chopper >

Spinfire is not any magic rubber, heavy spin loops are still problematic, but it's a good option though. I started with 802-40, which is recommended for an easy transition from inverted rubber, it's a great and cheap option, too. It was really an easy transition to me, so I picked up that Spinfire, simply got attracted by all these happy videos and now I'm happy with Spinfire, too.🤩And, I noticed they just released a totally new version, Spinfire Soft, but not any review yet.

Well, shortly to say, I believe that accommodation of short pips attack style would be easier for you and would give you more profit than such drastic style change. I used to play LP, be sure that pure defence needs 100% accuracy and consistency, which is not so easy to achieve. In fact I'm just on opposite way, from pure defence to some more active style and SP on BH + inverted rubber on FH fits me perfectly.

Let Mima Ito inspire you!🤘

 

[JJ Ng]

It sounds like a situation, which you could train with somebody. Maybe I miss the point or not understand you correctly... but you do not like when you must defend... and because of it you would like to change your style just into a pure defence? Really?🤷‍♂️

You play with Ma Lin Carbon. It's a good blade for SP, so my recommendation is... do not change your style drastically but try to adapt that BH short pips attack style. Stay active and just replace your BH with Spinfire, and you will see if it could solve your issues. Go for 2.1mm, Spinfire is very good on FH as well. Sometimes it's very helpful to have flexible sides, e.g. when game goes wrong and it's necessary to change something.

Spinfire is easy to play, there are many happy videos like this one >

Otherwise 1.5mm is a recommended thickness for a chopper >

Spinfire is not any magic rubber, heavy spin loops are still problematic, but it's a good option though. I started with 802-40, which is recommended for an easy transition from inverted rubber, it's a great and cheap option, too. It was really an easy transition to me, so I picked up that Spinfire, simply got attracted by all these happy videos and now I'm happy with Spinfire, too.🤩And, I noticed they just released a totally new version, Spinfire Soft, but not any review yet.

Well, shortly to say, I believe that accommodation of short pips attack style would be easier for you and would give you more profit than such drastic style change. I used to play LP, be sure that pure defence needs 100% accuracy and consistency, which is not so easy to achieve. In fact I'm just on opposite way, from pure defence to some more active style and SP on BH + inverted rubber on FH fits me perfectly.

Let Mima Ito inspire you!🤘

The OP plays away from the table. Short pips in that situation would be a bad idea.

I have played with 802-40 and Spinfire before on the BH side. I like them. But short pips are just not for chopping away from the table. Some ultra-aggressive pro-level defenders have used short pips on the BH side. So it has been done. But I don't think that the OP is looking for that.

The way I see it is, the OP wants to either a) back away from the table and chop from the BH side using long pips (instead of lobbing away from table using inverted on the backhand side) or b) stay close to the table, use long pips to disrupt the opposing player and then once in a while, twiddle the paddle and surprise the opponent with inverted on BH and do some aggressive blocking (AKA those Indian pro players style).

Anyway, that's my interpretation of it. My original recommendation of either Feint Long II or Feint Long III remain.

By the way, I like both 802-40 and Spinfire fine. Agree that 802-40 is easiest long pips to use for transitioning from inverted to short-pips. Spinfire is obviously faster than 802-40 and can be used as the next step. I personally prefer 1.9mm just fine. It is fast enough. 2.1mm Spinfire was too fast for me.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Agree that 802-40 is easiest long pips to use for transitioning from inverted to short-pips.

802-40 is easy to use but I think Joola Tango Ultra (idk if they still make it anymore but also Butterfly Raystorm) is the SP that comes closest to smooth rubber. Tango Ultra has very fat and soft pips with a soft sponge

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

The OP plays away from the table. Short pips in that situation would be a bad idea.

I have played with 802-40 and Spinfire before on the BH side. I like them. But short pips are just not for chopping away from the table. Some ultra-aggressive pro-level defenders have used short pips on the BH side. So it has been done. But I don't think that the OP is looking for that.

The way I see it is, the OP wants to either a) back away from the table and chop from the BH side using long pips (instead of lobbing away from table using inverted on the backhand side) or b) stay close to the table, use long pips to disrupt the opposing player and then once in a while, twiddle the paddle and surprise the opponent with inverted on BH and do some aggressive blocking (AKA those Indian pro players style).

Anyway, that's my interpretation of it. My original recommendation of either Feint Long II or Feint Long III remain.

By the way, I like both 802-40 and Spinfire fine. Agree that 802-40 is easiest long pips to use for transitioning from inverted to short-pips. Spinfire is obviously faster than 802-40 and can be used as the next step. I personally prefer 1.9mm just fine. It is fast enough. 2.1mm Spinfire was too fast for me.

You should say Yuto Muramatsu that SP away from the table is a bad idea. He would definitely thank you. Obviously he doesn't know it.
Anyhow, I didn't say that SP are a good idea for it. I said that going to a pure defense style just because of one problematic situation doesn't make much sense to me, and offered a different way because offense is a best defense, you know.

Really good choppers have their 100% accuracy and consistency. They are able to predict the next ball. I wonder how many years it takes to master all these skills?! 🤔

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

802-40 is easy to use but I think Joola Tango Ultra (idk if they still make it anymore but also Butterfly Raystorm) is the SP that comes closest to smooth rubber. Tango Ultra has very fat and soft pips with a soft sponge

For a transition you don't need the closest one, you need the most flexible one in a category, which is close enough to smooth rubber. It seems that Tango Ultra shines in blocking only. It's even quite expensive. 802-40 is much cheaper and much more flexible. I put it on my very old OFF- blade and was surprised how good and easy to play it is.

 

[Way Zooted]

Heck, just try it all... I think if you play enough, you should try everything. I think It helps with feel and understanding. Today I played all my table tennis matches with a hard bat.

 

[Zeen]

spinfire is extremely hard to control if you are chopping. Harder to chop with than inverted imo.

If you want something cheap to try out then I recommend meteor 8512.
A very grippy long pip that can change spin and ever create some on its own.

 

[pong99]

I have played with Spinfire, but not for chopping. It is a very good all around high spin SP.

This chopper says Spinfire chops very well in 1.5mm. He can also step in and attack with it.