Changing from offense to defense: Short or long pimples?

[ejprinz]

I went from dual inverted to SP backhand, then to LP backhand (1mm sponge). It took me 12 weeks (2 hours/day with machine & partners) to match my old level in tournaments. I didn't twiddle much in the beginning. I benefited in two ways:

1. I learned to play against long pips players because now I know what long pips do to the ball.
2. I got a lot of feeling for spin and the ball, I can twiddle now, and if I play dual inverted I now can chop inverted and do chop block (I learned that first with the long pips).

I tried long pips backhand on fast blades (Yinhe Pro 01 external and Pro 05 internal ALC) which is very challenging (for chopping). My best LP blade is the Victas Swat (1150Hz) which is similar to the great Yinhe 980XX defender's blade. I tried a couple of LP rubbers and right now I play either Nittaku Wallest or Neottec Tokkan (1mm sponge). I also tried MP (Dawei 388C-1 1.3mm) and SP (Nittaku Moristo SP, Yinhe Uranus Pro Medium Sponge Max).
Same conclusions as what the other folks see:
* Chopping doesn't work as well with the SP, and there is a continuum from inverted to SP to MP to LP where control gets better but backhand gets weaker.
* Real defense needs a defender's blade. Yinhe 980 is good & cheap, but 980XX is great and expensive ($70 or so).
* Developing the techniques (with twiddling) is really expensive, as you now have to play the inverted backhand with the forehand rubber (I use H3 Neo 39degrees with no boosting which works great for that purpose) and be able to switch to LP b/h.
* Twiddling in the tournament under stress is challenging and I had "twiddle stalls" and got caught e.g. with LP forehand so you also need to learn that technique.

My take is that it definitely was a lot of fun, I learned a lot, all my partners learned to play against LP, and now I play what I feel like, although for tournaments I would still play LP backhand with a control blade.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

For a transition you don't need the closest one, you need the most flexible one in a category, which is close enough to smooth rubber. It seems that Tango Ultra shines in blocking only. It's even quite expensive. 802-40 is much cheaper and much more flexible. I put it on my very old OFF- blade and was surprised how good and easy to play it is.

In this context, does 'flexible' mean 'versatile?' I agree that 802-40 is more versatile, but that's because Tango Ultra is faster, bouncier, and more spin sensitive than 802-40; I'm not sure that every player would agree that these attributes would necessarily make a rubber shine at blocking. Its also really not an expensive rubber, $40 from TT11, $27 from TTJapan

 

[Amayzde]

I can see a few comments here and there that are sceptical about me wanting make such a drastic change to my playstyle. I understand your concerns, but I have more reasons to change then just “oh I have a weak backhand, long pimples will probably solve all my problems”.

The truth is, I have been playing table tennis since 2007. I had to quit due to an injury in 2016. Now I have been playing again since September last year and so far so good. I would say my playing level is even better now then it was before I quit. Probably because I worked more on the mental side of the game when my skills where still lacking behind in the beginning. I really had to plan out my points from the start because I was too slow to react.

So now Im up to my old level, my forehand is really good again like it used to be, maybe even better because I focus on placement rather then power now. But I still have the same problem with my backhand. I used to not have a backhand at all. All I could do is push or block, topspinning was non-existent. Eventually I started practicing my backhand to the point where I have a good openup against backspin and a decent killer topspin on easy balls.

This is why I want to try out long pimples
Lately I started doing more strawberry flicks, strawberry slices and chop blocks. I have to say that even though my backhand is weak in open rallies, I think my backhand has quite good feeling to do all those weird strokes to disrupt my opponent.

I don’t seem to have this backhand problem against long pimple players. I think its because they slow the rally down for me so I dont experience the same pressure as wehn someone pressures my backhand with an attack.

So then I thought long pimples might be worth trying out for those reasons. Because then whenever someone pressures my backhand, I can easily slow the rally down myself. And it will (or at least I hope) also make my strawberries and chop blocks both more easy to execute and more disruptive for my opponent. And I seem to quite enjoy disrupting my opponents while looking for an opportunity to get my forehand in.

 

[jammmail]

I can see a few comments here and there that are sceptical about me wanting make such a drastic change to my playstyle. I understand your concerns, but I have more reasons to change then just “oh I have a weak backhand, long pimples will probably solve all my problems”.

The truth is, I have been playing table tennis since 2007. I had to quit due to an injury in 2016. Now I have been playing again since September last year and so far so good. I would say my playing level is even better now then it was before I quit. Probably because I worked more on the mental side of the game when my skills where still lacking behind in the beginning. I really had to plan out my points from the start because I was too slow to react.

So now Im up to my old level, my forehand is really good again like it used to be, maybe even better because I focus on placement rather then power now. But I still have the same problem with my backhand. I used to not have a backhand at all. All I could do is push or block, topspinning was non-existent. Eventually I started practicing my backhand to the point where I have a good openup against backspin and a decent killer topspin on easy balls.

This is why I want to try out long pimples
Lately I started doing more strawberry flicks, strawberry slices and chop blocks. I have to say that even though my backhand is weak in open rallies, I think my backhand has quite good feeling to do all those weird strokes to disrupt my opponent.

I don’t seem to have this backhand problem against long pimple players. I think its because they slow the rally down for me so I dont experience the same pressure as wehn someone pressures my backhand with an attack.

So then I thought long pimples might be worth trying out for those reasons. Because then whenever someone pressures my backhand, I can easily slow the rally down myself. And it will (or at least I hope) also make my strawberries and chop blocks both more easy to execute and more disruptive for my opponent. And I seem to quite enjoy disrupting my opponents while looking for an opportunity to get my forehand in.

So I've had a similar train of thought and development with my backhand. Add to the fact I'm a lefty I feel I get pinned on my BH to much.
Basically I lose confidence in my BH and play a weird roll shot instead of committed to the shot. Or push. I feel myself do it - but dont do it half as much in practice so its really hard to correct.

I did briefly try LP - add its like playing a different game and would be too hard to learn. I even played a league game and even though I won one game it was pretty much a disaster.

I have a SP set up that im wanting to try - but at practice I always think - right lets not think about it lets just go for your shots. 'Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' Springs to mind!
I think if you want to try something - go for it. I probably need to do the same.

 

[Emin]

Yinhe Pluto 1.5mm worked for me yesterday and today.
Basically modern defense with a lot of twiddling and more attacking.
Ill try it in a tournament this weekend to see how it goes.

 

[JJ Ng]

I can see a few comments here and there that are sceptical about me wanting make such a drastic change to my playstyle. I understand your concerns, but I have more reasons to change then just “oh I have a weak backhand, long pimples will probably solve all my problems”.

The truth is, I have been playing table tennis since 2007. I had to quit due to an injury in 2016. Now I have been playing again since September last year and so far so good. I would say my playing level is even better now then it was before I quit. Probably because I worked more on the mental side of the game when my skills where still lacking behind in the beginning. I really had to plan out my points from the start because I was too slow to react.

So now Im up to my old level, my forehand is really good again like it used to be, maybe even better because I focus on placement rather then power now. But I still have the same problem with my backhand. I used to not have a backhand at all. All I could do is push or block, topspinning was non-existent. Eventually I started practicing my backhand to the point where I have a good openup against backspin and a decent killer topspin on easy balls.

This is why I want to try out long pimples
Lately I started doing more strawberry flicks, strawberry slices and chop blocks. I have to say that even though my backhand is weak in open rallies, I think my backhand has quite good feeling to do all those weird strokes to disrupt my opponent.

I don’t seem to have this backhand problem against long pimple players. I think its because they slow the rally down for me so I dont experience the same pressure as wehn someone pressures my backhand with an attack.

So then I thought long pimples might be worth trying out for those reasons. Because then whenever someone pressures my backhand, I can easily slow the rally down myself. And it will (or at least I hope) also make my strawberries and chop blocks both more easy to execute and more disruptive for my opponent. And I seem to quite enjoy disrupting my opponents while looking for an opportunity to get my forehand in.

Here is what I think. You should do whatever you want that is enjoyable. When you ask a question about equipment, I answer. I don't go on a tangent talking about playing style or not. I am not at your club looking at how you play. I have no interest how you are developing as a player. So I keep my mouth shut.

I do believe too many people posting here have an agenda. And I don't get it. For example, on another thread, someone asks for a combination racket (blade + two set of rubbers) that cost about $80. And yet the answers are all over the place and some people reply with budgets that are like $150+. I don't get it. This is as simple as it gets. Someone new to the forum want to enjoy the game and want a certain budget. Some members of the forum just totally ignore that request and answer with set-up that cost much more. Come on! It is not that hard just to answer one simple question.

I think the game is about fun and exploration as well. It is not all about "winning" or "player development." For those, leave it to the coach.

Going back to your original question, that's why since Ma Lin carbon is not expensive, my advice would be for you to get two sets of blade (if money is not a huge issue) except one set remains the same (your current double inverted set-up) and another set with same FH rubber but BH is Feint Long II or Feint Long III. And my advice is for you to play 80% with your new set up with BH long pips and play 20% with your old set up, using inverted rubber on the BH to lob. And let's see how you enjoy it!

Some people here remind me of all the players are the club who are sore losers. Whenever they win (even like an edge ball), they pump themselves up. Whenever they lose, they mumble some excuses (like I am playing a new set-up today or I did not get much sleep last night), when we shake hands. That takes all the fun out of the game.

Enjoy the game and play with whatever style you are comfortable with!

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

spinfire is extremely hard to control if you are chopping. Harder to chop with than inverted imo.

Extremely? Which blade did you try, please? I play Spinfire 2.1mm with utterly fast Carbospeed and 1.5mm with Waldner Legend Carbon, and I have no problem with (emergency) chops on BH. Sure, it's a little bit harder than with inverted or LP, but imo it's still perfectly fine, so I wonder if blade's stiffness or hardness could have such significant impact?!

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

In this context, does 'flexible' mean 'versatile?' I agree that 802-40 is more versatile, but that's because Tango Ultra is faster, bouncier, and more spin sensitive than 802-40; I'm not sure that every player would agree that these attributes would necessarily make a rubber shine at blocking. Its also really not an expensive rubber, $40 from TT11, $27 from TTJapan

Checking TT11 just now, 802-40 $22.5, Spinfire $42, Tango Ultra $49.
Revspin description 'The amazing characteristics of Tango rubbers have joined forces with a pips-out topsheet for a short-pips rubber ideal for blocking.'
And yes, I meant 'versatile', I'm not a native speaker, sorry.

 

[Zeen]

Extremely? Which blade did you try, please? I play Spinfire 2.1mm with utterly fast Carbospeed and 1.5mm with Waldner Legend Carbon, and I have no problem with (emergency) chops on BH. Sure, it's a little bit harder than with inverted or LP, but imo it's still perfectly fine, so I wonder if blade's stiffness or hardness could have such significant impact?!

Yes, extremely hard to chop with compared to LP or other chopping SP like spinpips.
Of course, in the off chance anyone could actually control that thing it would be extremely potent.

However, just because you get the occasional emergency chop does not mean OP can consistently chop with it and make the necessary variations without error.

Blade is not as important as you think. Wang Yang chops with a Harimoto ALC.
But the stiffness and hardness need to be suited to player's feeling for the chop.

 

[JJ Ng]

Checking TT11 just now, 802-40 $22.5, Spinfire $42, Tango Ultra $49.
Revspin description 'The amazing characteristics of Tango rubbers have joined forces with a pips-out topsheet for a short-pips rubber ideal for blocking.'
And yes, I meant 'versatile', I'm not a native speaker, sorry.

I don't want to get in between the debate between @PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer and @Zeen too much. I can see both sides of view.

I have played with 802-40 and Spinfire. I think 802-40 is easier to start off with because it is less bouncy. Eventually I think upgrading to Spinfire would be good.

I have played with 2.1mm Spinfire and 1.8mm Spinfire. 2.1mm is too fast for me. I would say 1.5mm Spinfire and even thinner would be better for chopping.

TT11 does not give any further discount on Spinfire so $42 is it. I easily buy enough to get 30% discount so 802-40 would be $15.75 and Tango Ultra would be $34.30 so Spinfire is still the most expensive option. Do I think Spinfire is worth $42? Yes, it is a good set of rubber.

 

[PoorPingPong&PianoPlayer]

I have played with 2.1mm Spinfire and 1.8mm Spinfire. 2.1mm is too fast for me. I would say 1.5mm Spinfire and even thinner would be better for chopping.

Spinfire is available in OX, 1.5, 1.8 and 2.1mm. I wonder if somebody already tried Spinfire OX.

 

[JJ Ng]

Spinfire is available in OX, 1.5, 1.8 and 2.1mm. I wonder if somebody already tried Spinfire OX.

I like Spinfire. It definitely generates quite a bit of spin.

On the forum and at my club, no one has used OX.

I have purple 1.8mm and I still use it time to time to play against club players who have NO CLUE on how to play against pips, just to mess with them.

I went on a journey to play pips from Dec 2023 to March 2024. Since then I have gone back to double inverted.

When I was playing with Spinfire, I used it like inverted which some of the club players criticized me for it. They said, "you should hit straight through the backspin instead of trying to loop it using Spinfire." I pretty ignored them. However, by playing short pips for a while it made my whole game better.

I played J-pen growing up so I know how to move. But I took a 7-8 year break from ping pong. When I came back 5 years ago, I forgot how to move because I am much older now (and fatter too). By playing short pips, it rekindled my old fire to move more and use my forehand more because when I played double inverted, I frankly got a bit lazy. And somehow by trying to loop with short pips, it has helped me loop more with inverted on my BH now. So I enjoyed my time with pips but time to move back to double inverted.

 

[Zeen]

You should also try meteor 8512.
I tried around 10 pips for the same game style you want to do, and 8512 was easily the best of all of them in terms of control, spin variation, versatility.

I suggest thickest sponge available (seems to be 1.0mm at the moment) because then you can push with backspin and return fast topspin with short movement and still get good spin into the chop.

 

[Amayzde]

I did try one of my clubmates rackets yesterday. He also has Fastarc G-1 on FH, same af me so I could make a good comparison.

He has some thick custom blade which I have no idea of what it was. It was also quite light and bouncy, so I suspect there was balsa in there. He had Tibhar Grass Dtecs on his backhand, and I believe it has a 1,6mm sponge.

Keeping the ball on the table with long pimples wasnt too much of a problem. Of course I did make occasional mistakes because I wasnt used to it, but I got the hang of it quite quickly.

1 thing I struggled with was whenever someone attacked hard, It was hard to chop the ball onto the table. I think this was partially because I was too close to the table to chop these balls. So if I want to adopt this playing style I really need to get more comfortable inviting the opponent to attack and keep the ball on the table from a comfortable distance.

I did struggle to get my forehand to work. In the beginning it was mostly the weight difference that threw me off. But eventually once I got a little more used to the weight Instill missed quite a bit. It felt like my topspins didnt arc down onto the table as much as Im used to.

So conclusion after this is that this was very interesting. It didnt go amazing, but it also wasnt terrible. Theres definitely a few more disadvantages to long pimples then I initially thought of, but whenever I got it right I had a blast.

I think I will get a spare racket with long pimples, hopefully not too expensive. I was planning on getting G-1 on my fh, same as my regular setup. Long pips rubber Im gravitating thowards feint long 3, because its supposedly more grippy then feint long 2, and I think that wouldnt be a bad idea coming from inverted.

For my blade Im a little unsure, I could go with another Ma Lin Carbon, but a few of my long pips clubmates frowned upon mentioning Ma Lin Carbon for long pimples… And I guess they know better then I do.

I would also like the weight distribution to not be too different from my current setup. So I was thinking about getting an oversized blade to accomodate for the lightness that long pimple rubbers have. Id prefer it to not be too expensive. Does anyone know something around €40?

 

[JJ Ng]

I did try one of my clubmates rackets yesterday. He also has Fastarc G-1 on FH, same af me so I could make a good comparison.

He has some thick custom blade which I have no idea of what it was. It was also quite light and bouncy, so I suspect there was balsa in there. He had Tibhar Grass Dtecs on his backhand, and I believe it has a 1,6mm sponge.

Keeping the ball on the table with long pimples wasnt too much of a problem. Of course I did make occasional mistakes because I wasnt used to it, but I got the hang of it quite quickly.

1 thing I struggled with was whenever someone attacked hard, It was hard to chop the ball onto the table. I think this was partially because I was too close to the table to chop these balls. So if I want to adopt this playing style I really need to get more comfortable inviting the opponent to attack and keep the ball on the table from a comfortable distance.

I did struggle to get my forehand to work. In the beginning it was mostly the weight difference that threw me off. But eventually once I got a little more used to the weight Instill missed quite a bit. It felt like my topspins didnt arc down onto the table as much as Im used to.

So conclusion after this is that this was very interesting. It didnt go amazing, but it also wasnt terrible. Theres definitely a few more disadvantages to long pimples then I initially thought of, but whenever I got it right I had a blast.

I think I will get a spare racket with long pimples, hopefully not too expensive. I was planning on getting G-1 on my fh, same as my regular setup. Long pips rubber Im gravitating thowards feint long 3, because its supposedly more grippy then feint long 2, and I think that wouldnt be a bad idea coming from inverted.

For my blade Im a little unsure, I could go with another Ma Lin Carbon, but a few of my long pips clubmates frowned upon mentioning Ma Lin Carbon for long pimples… And I guess they know better then I do.

I would also like the weight distribution to not be too different from my current setup. So I was thinking about getting an oversized blade to accomodate for the lightness that long pimple rubbers have. Id prefer it to not be too expensive. Does anyone know something around €40?

Ma Ling Carbon is not that fast. I think your clubmate does not understand that.

It is hard enough to adapt to long pips on your backhand side so I think you should stick with a second racket that is Ma Lin Carbon with G1 on the forehand and Feint Long 3 on the backhand. Maybe you want to start with Feint Long 3 0.5mmg sponge?

As for oversized blade, I don't know much about. But I like the Tibhar Stratus Power Wood. There is Tibhar Stratus Power Defense that is for $44.17 on Tabletennis11 so you might want to look into that.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

For my blade Im a little unsure, I could go with another Ma Lin Carbon, but a few of my long pips clubmates frowned upon mentioning Ma Lin Carbon for long pimples… And I guess they know better then I do.

I would also like the weight distribution to not be too different from my current setup. So I was thinking about getting an oversized blade to accomodate for the lightness that long pimple rubbers have. Id prefer it to not be too expensive. Does anyone know something around €40?

If you are already used to it, I don't think it would be bad to use FL3 on a MLC. Its somewhat stiff but its not so fast one couldn't chop comfortably with one IMO

But if you're looking for an oversized chopping blades under €40, you can check out the Donic Defplay or Yasaka Sweden Defensive from TT11, but be aware they are both a lot slower and more flexible than a Ma Lin Carbon

 

[Way Zooted]

This popped up in my YouTube feed today...

"I switched to the DARK SIDE... My FIRST Table Tennis League (Short Pips)"