Backhand blocking finally clicked for me

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When i miss my BH it is 90% of the time because I am not quite far enough out to where the ball is. Jimmy Butler was the one who really made me aware of it. One of the many pieces of amazing free advice I owe him for.
 
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Could someone go more in depth about "flat blocking" for shake hand*? My main practice partner likes to argue about semantics, and can't warm up worth a darn. I can never articulate to him what he is doing wrong, in a way that clicks. I would like other perspectives on it for my own growth as well. Neither of us lob so I can't really use that analogy.
 
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Could someone go more in depth about "flat blocking" for shake hand*? My main practice partner likes to argue about semantics, and can't warm up worth a darn. I can never articulate to him what he is doing wrong, in a way that clicks. I would like other perspectives on it for my own growth as well. Neither of us lob so I can't really use that analogy.
NextLevel made me aware of the fact that during blocking and warmups I am lifting topspin, albeit ever so slightly. What I've noted since then, is that I only do it on my defensive blades which are very flexy. On my more solid offensive blades, especially JPEN, I don't do those little mini lifts at all...which tells me it's largely subconscious. So when blocking and doing warm ups with my Defplay, I have to really tell myself to move forward with the correct trajectory and avoid compensating with a brush.

NextLevel can more intelligently speak to it. His wheelhouse for sure.
 
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FOR ALL WHO SEE THIS: DO THIS!

Trust me, I know :p I definitely know how annoying it is when the block comes back with a lot of topspin. It's downright evil when your opponent does this in the warmup in the tournament

I remember reading a post (maybe it was by you or Carl or something) about how the proper way to block in practice is to block flat.

Thanks for the warning anyways. I do know how much spin is appropriate in practice (it's not like I'm deliberately trying to give my practice partner a hard time). And I'm sure that the amount I'm giving is appropriate (similar to a medium-weak lob). And my practice partner (albeit ~1900) definitely doesn't have much trouble with my blocks in practice. If anything, I feel that my initial blocking stroke was too flat


*****************

On the side note: I would advise players to learn to do both. Knowing that there is a difference is the first step of the way. Some players don't know any better and do one or the other.

There's a time and place for everything! Sometimes a flat block doesn't work (against loops that are low, fast, not spin focused). Somtimes the spinnier one doesn't work (high and lots of spin).

You are more than advanced enough that I wouldn't be worried to deal with your blocks and you could be fixed by a good player if he was really concerned. My coach told me that he has never lost to a guy who couldn't flat block in the game warm ups because topspin blocks in warmups are evidence of bad technique and that at certain points, topspin becomes so heavy in matches that you can't arc it close to the table without counter-spinning - topspin blocking with an open angle will send the ball repeatedly high or long.

For uncoached players below USATT 1800 though, it is a different story. Many of those players have this illusion that in practice, if you loop hard, the opponent is supposed to start missing your loops by blocking them badly. This is not true. If you loop consistently, no matter how hard, as long as there is a consistent amount of spin on the ball, there is a flat block that brings your ball back on the table. Advanced players know this and calibrate their blocks and their loops for this in practice drills. Players without good coaching do all kinds of things like sidespinning or wiping the ball to keep their blocks on the table. These are better than topspin blocks in some cases but are still part of the problem. Rather than look for the flat block and getting good practice reps, they take pride in the fact that the practice partner is missing the block. This is a big mistake. In fact, 2500 players can miss bad blocks from 2000 level players in warmups if the block is not a good flat block.

The reason why these players tend to block long as the topspin increases is that lifting blocks with not so closed angles have a higher margin for error at lower levels of spin. As you get higher levels of power and spin, these lifting blocks will lift the ball long if the angle is not sufficiently closed (in other words, they have to start playing mini counter topspins, but since they almost never counter topspin below 1800 level if they are not coached, this is asking for a lot).

For someone like you who knows how to countertopspin, the challenge is getting to rely on a relatively flat contact and hit forward through the ball when blocking. It might run counter to how you are used to controlling the ball. Some very good players at your level or slightly higher have to go through drills to build out a flat block. I suspect in your case that the missing the table is what is bothering you about blocking. IF I coach people, I tell them that to calibrate their strokes, they have to deliberately miss the table or aim for spots and see if the ball goes where they aimed it with their technique. This is because many people do not really understand their strokes and the margin they have if they are aiming for the table all the time.

At higher levels, flat blocking is not always truly flat - the main thing though is to make sure that the motion of the ball and the stroke in the vertical plane isn't so large that it causes timing errors in both your stroke and those of the opponent. In matches though, some people are willing to take this risk in other to cause timing errors for opponents.
 
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NextLevel made me aware of the fact that during blocking and warmups I am lifting topspin, albeit ever so slightly. What I've noted since then, is that I only do it on my defensive blades which are very flexy. On my more solid offensive blades, especially JPEN, I don't do those little mini lifts at all...which tells me it's largely subconscious. So when blocking and doing warm ups with my Defplay, I have to really tell myself to move forward with the correct trajectory and avoid compensating with a brush.

NextLevel can more intelligently speak to it. His wheelhouse for sure.

Yeah, those are slower blades, so I am sure you can get away with the lifting block up to a point. But it's better to hit through the ball just a little more as you described so you can keep your technique consistent.
 
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Yeah, those are slower blades, so I am sure you can get away with the lifting block up to a point. But it's better to hit through the ball just a little more as you described so you can keep your technique consistent.
My warmups with my Jpen, and Joo Se Hyuk blade are great. I even get comments about how different it is... but when I go back to the defplay (Which is my go-to chopping blade) it's pretty different.
 
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Could someone go more in depth about "flat blocking" for shake hand*? My main practice partner likes to argue about semantics, and can't warm up worth a darn. I can never articulate to him what he is doing wrong, in a way that clicks. I would like other perspectives on it for my own growth as well. Neither of us lob so I can't really use that analogy.

You control the ball in two ways - spinning with the Magnus effect or directional hitting. Basic hits rely mostly on the directional force, heavy topspin loops rely mostly on the Magnus effect, loop drives rely on both.

A lifting stroke with an open paddle has no strong component of spin or directional force. Its focus is to get the ball over the net. For people who play with non-grippy surfaces this is okay. But as the surface grip gets higher these lifting strokes are not necessary and inverted rubbers are designed to already lift the ball if you do standard hits (so are short pips to a lesser degree)

So A lifting block lacks control because it has no real directional component and has no real spin. In some cases, it can reduce the force from the incoming ball and be used to arc the ball over the net but the movement of the ball on the vertical plane makes the ball much harder to time consistently with your loop. This timing disruption is greater if the looper has more spin on their loops As it is transferred to the block. It also isn't always clear why the topspin block is arcing (it can be a low spin ball just affected by thrbupward motion of the block or a heavy spin ball loaded by the prior loop) but it is easier to time a ball that is coming straight at you through the table than one that is arcing with an inconsistent amount of topspin.

If you are an advanced player, learning to loop balls that are kicked or topspin blocked to you can be a good practice to improve your spin read and timing. For a learning player or someone just looking for simple practice, it can be a nightmare as you hit racket edge on the ball over and over or hit balls long and into the net as the topspin level is inconsistent.

So basically, to cut a long story short, good practice blocking limits movement of the stroke and the ball in the vertical plane. It takes some practice to get used to setting your angle and using your body to whip the ball forward but it is worth it, especially if your game is mostly closer to the table. Your practice partners will than you for it too.
 
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You are more than advanced enough that I wouldn't be worried to deal with your blocks and you could be fixed by a good player if he was really concerned. My coach told me that he has never lost to a guy who couldn't flat block in the game warm ups because topspin blocks in warmups are evidence of bad technique and that at certain points, topspin becomes so heavy in matches that you can't arc it close to the table without counter-spinning - topspin blocking with an open angle will send the ball repeatedly high or long.

For uncoached players below USATT 1800 though, it is a different story. Many of those players have this illusion that in practice, if you loop hard, the opponent is supposed to start missing your loops by blocking them badly. This is not true. If you loop consistently, no matter how hard, as long as there is a consistent amount of spin on the ball, there is a flat block that brings your ball back on the table. Advanced players know this and calibrate their blocks and their loops for this in practice drills. Players without good coaching do all kinds of things like sidespinning or wiping the ball to keep their blocks on the table. These are better than topspin blocks in some cases but are still part of the problem. Rather than look for the flat block and getting good practice reps, they take pride in the fact that the practice partner is missing the block. This is a big mistake. In fact, 2500 players can miss bad blocks from 2000 level players in warmups if the block is not a good flat block.

The reason why these players tend to block long as the topspin increases is that lifting blocks with not so closed angles have a higher margin for error at lower levels of spin. As you get higher levels of power and spin, these lifting blocks will lift the ball long if the angle is not sufficiently closed (in other words, they have to start playing mini counter topspins, but since they almost never counter topspin below 1800 level if they are not coached, this is asking for a lot).

For someone like you who knows how to countertopspin, the challenge is getting to rely on a relatively flat contact and hit forward through the ball when blocking. It might run counter to how you are used to controlling the ball. Some very good players at your level or slightly higher have to go through drills to build out a flat block. I suspect in your case that the missing the table is what is bothering you about blocking. IF I coach people, I tell them that to calibrate their strokes, they have to deliberately miss the table or aim for spots and see if the ball goes where they aimed it with their technique. This is because many people do not really understand their strokes and the margin they have if they are aiming for the table all the time.

At higher levels, flat blocking is not always truly flat - the main thing though is to make sure that the motion of the ball and the stroke in the vertical plane isn't so large that it causes timing errors in both your stroke and those of the opponent. In matches though, some people are willing to take this risk in other to cause timing errors for opponents.


I will make sure that I will not stray away from the One True Path of flat blocking. :)

**************

There's one thing that I'd like to add on to.

the challenge is getting to rely on a relatively flat contact and hit forward through the ball when blocking.

Try holding the paddle with RPB. Now with your paddle 1 foot in front of your chest, try to open your racket. And then try to hit the ball flat. Have fun with that.

Anyone playing RPB knows that it is very difficult to open your racket, since the natural angle for doing RPB is very closed compared to shakehand. You have to apply pressure using your middle finger.

Because of this natural closed racket angle, my reaction block usually missed by going into the net. And so, I fixed that with my close-table lobbing method (which makes me lift the ball a little). This is exactly the 'missing the table' calibration that you were talking about.

It's quite coincidental that you mentioned the point about lifting without a closed racket, since I happen to be lifting a little with a closed racket due to RPB. Also, I don't have any trouble with really spinny loops. I just played in NCTTA regionals, where my block did completely fine against 2200 players loading their loops with spin (plus my practice partner loops spinny as well).


I will admit that initially I did not understand my own blocking stroke for a full 5 and a half years. But after a little thinking, I feel that now I have been enlightened (and the stroke finally clicked for me, hence the title of this thread)


EDIT: I've tried to control using only directional movement. It works out for my forehand. Not for my backhand. I do know how to control the ball this way ( in fact, this is how I loop and counter-loop now; no more peeling the ball; more solid contact ), but it doesn't work out when you close your paddle too far.

If anything, this is my next goal. If I can figure out how to control the ball with directional movement, I can finally start hitting harder with my backhand. As of right now, I am still 'peeling the ball' with my backhand attacks. When I do try directional control, it starts being inconsistent.

Perhaps with sufficient speed it is possible. But I still need to figure out a practical way to do this with RPB.
 
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I suspected for RPB it could be different and Wang Hao had blocking as a relative weakness in his backhand. The thing about lobbing is that it implies motion in vertical plane and I suspect if I was to see your stroke, there is more to it than that. Maybe just the idea of actually doing a stroke when blocking is helping more than anything else. It' also possible that your backswing allows you to hit the ball slight more open. But as long as you are not lifting the ball into the sky I suspect it is largely fine if your practice partners are not hitting racket edges repeatedly.
 
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For RPB perhaps the "lifting" block is natural for catching the ball early on the rise? I do this as well on my RPB blocks too. I was mostly trying in imitating Wong ChunTing and Xu Fei videos.

Also I found TPB actually helping me understand "flat" blocking with the RPB especially when no reaction time and need for placing ball with safety on BH returns.

Nowadays its just movement and positioning that I struggle with and not the stroke or return itself. I got the stroke timing figured out but can't get there. Too f at, too fat, too really really fat :p :-D, who's fat ;-) :')

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I suspected for RPB it could be different and Wang Hao had blocking as a relative weakness in his backhand. The thing about lobbing is that it implies motion in vertical plane and I suspect if I was to see your stroke, there is more to it than that. Maybe just the idea of actually doing a stroke when blocking is helping more than anything else. It' also possible that your backswing allows you to hit the ball slight more open. But as long as you are not lifting the ball into the sky I suspect it is largely fine if your practice partners are not hitting racket edges repeatedly.


I'll try posting a video. My practice partner likes having me block for his 'forehand loop backhand' drill now, so I can record that on Wednesday.

I will admit, there is vertical movement. I just hope that it's not excessive, and that it doesn't become a problem down the line.

On the side note, I immediately noticed the huge difference in racket angle when I started practicing backhand looping again (i use the natural closed angle). My wrist temporarily forgot what angle to use when looping for a good 2 hours.

So basically learning to block well made me temporarily miss my backhand loops. What a sad day that was... At the very least, now I know what went wrong.

I feel as though, right now, my backhand isn't really able to 'spin the ball forward' (directional control) like how my forehand does. My best guess is that I need more racket speed/more wrist (but we'll probably need another video to get that checked out).

Do you guys have any advice on that (backhand looping with power using directional control)?
 
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I'll try posting a video. My practice partner likes having me block for his 'forehand loop backhand' drill now, so I can record that on Wednesday.

I will admit, there is vertical movement. I just hope that it's not excessive, and that it doesn't become a problem down the line.

On the side note, I immediately noticed the huge difference in racket angle when I started practicing backhand looping again (i use the natural closed angle). My wrist temporarily forgot what angle to use when looping for a good 2 hours.

So basically learning to block well made me temporarily miss my backhand loops. What a sad day that was... At the very least, now I know what went wrong.

I feel as though, right now, my backhand isn't really able to 'spin the ball forward' (directional control) like how my forehand does. My best guess is that I need more racket speed/more wrist (but we'll probably need another video to get that checked out).

Do you guys have any advice on that (backhand looping with power using directional control)?
Silver told me to try Kreanga BH stroke with RPB. It works! :-D

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For RPB perhaps the "lifting" block is natural for catching the ball early on the rise? I do this as well on my RPB blocks too. I was mostly trying in imitating Wong ChunTing and Xu Fei videos.

Also I found TPB actually helping me understand "flat" blocking with the RPB especially when no reaction time and need for placing ball with safety on BH returns.

Nowadays its just movement and positioning that I struggle with and not the stroke or return itself. I got the stroke timing figured out but can't get there. Too f at, too fat, too really really fat :p :-D, who's fat ;-) :')

Sent from my Z1 using Tapatalk


RPB on defense never felt natural at all to me. The only thing that felt natural was an RPB lob, which helped me understand the RPB block. It helped me understand where to position myself and how to time my stroke, and what direction my stroke should go in.

I actually don't try to hit on the rise.

Either way, good for you if using TPB helped you understand flat blocking with the RPB!

We can all become enlightened with own ways.
 
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Silver told me to try Kreanga BH stroke with RPB. It works! :-D

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I think I've tried it at some point. I've had some success with it, but I didn't know if that was the right stroke for it, so I dropped it to return to what I used to do.

I guess I'll try it again. It sounds like fun :)
 
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Here is Wang Hao blocking with RPB - this could just as well be any shakehand top player blocking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_pxzoqBKfo

See that he is whipping is paddle from back to front with limited upward motion and bouncing with the ball. The preparatory whip motion with his body circling into the ball is key. This is what I appreciated about the TPB block videos that Nuke posted as they show you that certain things about the block are universal.

The block is a stroke, it is not just holding your paddle there. It is a very short counter. One of my favorite parts of watching Dan's reviews with pros is watching how the pros block.
 
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I'll try posting a video. My practice partner likes having me block for his 'forehand loop backhand' drill now, so I can record that on Wednesday.

I will admit, there is vertical movement. I just hope that it's not excessive, and that it doesn't become a problem down the line.

On the side note, I immediately noticed the huge difference in racket angle when I started practicing backhand looping again (i use the natural closed angle). My wrist temporarily forgot what angle to use when looping for a good 2 hours.

So basically learning to block well made me temporarily miss my backhand loops. What a sad day that was... At the very least, now I know what went wrong.

I feel as though, right now, my backhand isn't really able to 'spin the ball forward' (directional control) like how my forehand does. My best guess is that I need more racket speed/more wrist (but we'll probably need another video to get that checked out).

Do you guys have any advice on that (backhand looping with power using directional control)?


Hit the side of the ball and cover - it's really more a circular motion. You may hook or fade the ball at first, but try to come over the ball, and direct the ball straight forward with topspin as much as possible. That's how I power loop with low arc. Looping is about circular motions and the thing about RPB looping is that most of the wrist work is on the backswing with very little on the follow through (with shakehand, you can either put more work on the backswing or put it more evenly on backswing and the follow through). I drag my wrist into the ball, hit the side and cover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groaqJhMsMY
 
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