Pitchford Top 20?

He sometimes looks like a top 10 talent, but he'll be 25 soon, he's been on the tour for a while already, and I don't think he's ever been top 40. Interesting question how much he can improve at this stage. Does anyone have an opinion on what's been holding him back so far in his career?

Top 10

That backhand, most especially the over-the-table long-ass arms flick... He paralized harimoto with that shot, and I think he'll do the same to most others. His play is unorthodox in many respects, and not the kind of unorthodox I think other players can just prepare for and get used to.

That, and also it doesn't seem like China really has any serious replacements for the big 3 right now, though FZD still has a long career ahead.

If he plays 8 tournaments this year that impact ranking and places well, he will have a decent WR.

Andy44 said:

Does anyone have an opinion on what's been holding him back so far in his career?

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Facts are he hasn't had any wins over higher ranked opponents to move up.

Loopadoop said:

Facts are he hasn't had any wins over higher ranked opponents to move up.

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That doesn't matter. Best results from 8 qualifying tournaments do. And you don't actually necessarily have to beat higher-ranked opponents to get as far as to gain points.

yoass said:

That doesn't matter. Best results from 8 qualifying tournaments do. And you don't actually necessarily have to beat higher-ranked opponents to get as far as to gain points.

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Theoretically you are correct, practically speaking you are more often wrong than right.

Everything is possible depends how he plays, how often and when do you expect him top 20. In current form he is definitely top 20, but for now ranking is 65, so it will take some time.
On the other hand if you look at English players they are very good at team competition (I think the team spirit is great) and not that good at singles.

I want to see him beat those players in bo7, not bo5. Then we can start talking. Every player shines here and there, I wish him the best of luck and would like to see him against the chinese, but this is way too early.

Loopadoop said:

Theoretically you are correct, practically speaking you are more often wrong than right.

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Maybe. I noticed the top players tend to be rather selective in the tournaments they participate in. So if you're #20 and participating in a tournament, less than 19 out of the other 19 top-20 players will participate. And between these <19 other higher-ranked players, a bunch of them will eliminate one another in the rounds preceding the ones you score ranking points with.

And of course, like Ma Long sometimes better players just lose points because of insufficient participation. I don't have to beat Ma Long to outrank Ma Long as long as I play tournaments, win some ranking points here and there, while Ma Long does not.

Maybe somebody has data available on the last few dozen qualifying tournaments - the players playing QF's and up, and their rankings? 8 men, 8 women for each tournament. If we find only top-15 ranked players there, categorically, you're right; then it's theoretical. Yet if it regularly happens that a sub-15 player reaches a QF (or goes even further), then it's not.

Loopadoop said:

Facts are he hasn't had any wins over higher ranked opponents to move up.

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In the world champs alone, 6 of his 8 wins have been higher ranked opponents.(Chuang, Chen, Harimoto, Mizutani, Samsonov, Cedric Nuytinck)

In the world cup, he beat Harimoto and Calderano, both are much higher ranked.

Yecats Encerwal said:

In the world champs alone, 6 of his 8 wins have been higher ranked opponents.(Chuang, Chen, Harimoto, Mizutani, Samsonov, Cedric Nuytinck)

In the world cup, he beat Harimoto and Calderano, both are much higher ranked.

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That response was related to his past activity, not his last year's activity.

Since the way the World Ranking works now is in performance in World Tour events and how far you get and how many World Tour events you play in, who Pitchford or anyone else beats does not matter. The issue for World Ranking with the new system has become:

1) Does the player have 8 or more appearances in World Tour events that count toward World Ranking in the last 12 months?
2) If the player has more than 8 World Tour appearances, What are the player's 8 best performances in World Tour Events in the last 12 months? (those are the ones that count towards World Ranking).
3) How many points did the player get for each of those events?

Some events are worth more points than others. But I don't believe the level of the opponents is counted any more. Just that you are at the tournament and what round you get to.

So many have argued that showing up to a tournament and losing in the first round gives a player more points than it should. But with the current World Ranking system, I believe if Pitchford has enough events to choose his best 8 and eliminate a few not so good events he could earn a pretty high ranking. Like if he can get 8 results that are semifinals or better, he will probably be in the top 10.

How else could anyone be ranked higher than Der_Echte or Ma Long?

He doesnt play well with fast Asian players and I mean fast footwork and flexibility but he is very good with powerful players. He won't be top 20 because when you play in a lot of tournaments you must beat a lot of "unknown" guys from place like Chinese Taipei, second team of Japan, Korea so he can have instruments to beat players from top 20 but he will have some problems with ranking points

I think he has developed his game in the right direction. I actually see improvements in his game. He's doing a lot of things that not many European players do like fast FH off-the-bounce counter loop, stay close to the table, try to take the ball very early and attack difficult angles. Especially, his over-the-table BH flick is amazing with his long reach. His reflex and flexibility is very impressive as well. The problem is whether he can play consistently like this or not. It will require dedication, determination, mental strength, luck (to avoid injuries), etc.
If he can keep up like this, he can definitely be in the top 20.

Yecats Encerwal said:

In the world champs alone, 6 of his 8 wins have been higher ranked opponents.(Chuang, Chen, Harimoto, Mizutani, Samsonov, Cedric Nuytinck)

In the world cup, he beat Harimoto and Calderano, both are much higher ranked.

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He's incredible. I'm thinking top 5 if he wasn't old already, but who knows. At first I was certain he's a top 5 player to be but I thought he was much younger than he is.

Yes, he is 24 - dead man walking! LOL

It didn’t happen today. Winning against the WR20 would’ve been a good start.

mart1nandersson said:

It didn’t happen today. Winning against the WR20 would’ve been a good start.

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Congrats to Sweden! Mattias played very well. He also had the crowd advantage.
But Liam didn't play too bad either. He still looks very promising to me.

The current ranking is messed up with the recent change BTW, looking at the top 50, I think there are many players that are much inferior to Liam Pitchford. Liao Cheng Ting, Ho Kwan Kit, Quadri Aruna? even Kenta Matsudaira, many more. From number 10 to number 50, I can only see a few players that can be confirmed as superior (or more consistent) to Liam, the others are inferior or just about the same level.

sderyke2002 said:

Yes, he is 24 - dead man walking! LOL

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He's 25 I think, but in any case that doesn't realistically leave more than 5-10 years (and timo is a freak) in good form, but already becoming uncompetitive in comparison to younger lions,

But the thing is more that when he is in his prime, the greatest chinese players are also in top form, and when I thought he was 18-20 (for some reason), I was thinking he would be in his prime after the chinese great 3 are on the decline, because he can definitely defeat the new crop of players. I don't see Lin GY being close to Ma Long etc.