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  1. zeio is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ttpshot
    My information is a bit outdated as I'm no longer with my old club.

    Custom rubbers were available to the public upon special order. There was actually an information on the Butterfly web site how to order your own customized rubber. Basically, you can choose certain top sheet with certain sponge as long as it's not extreme and spring(or tensioned) sponge. I'm pretty sure you could order one until 2018 but somehow it disappeared from the website in 2019. Probably because of price (more than Dignics per sheet, and with min order qty) and popularity.

    As for SP rubbers, what the Sales person of Buttefly said was that it was purely for traceability as they are one of the toughest bunch when it comes to sponsorship and misusage of their product. Most high profile Japanese players visit the factorty to handpick their rubbers but some (and overseas players) get theirs sent. As you know, rubbers vary in hardness even in same model and sponge thickness. It's just a part of manufacturing process because of the inconsistancy in sponge thickness. And sponsored players get to choose the hardest rubber out of the line.

    Now, that was the information form around 2016-2017 so it could well be different now especially when Tenergy Hard was available provided to pros before it hit the market.
    Quote Originally Posted by ttpshot
    Found the text (but not URL in Internet Archive, sorry!)

    --------------------------------
    Q「特注ラバーを作製することはできますか?」

    A「ハイテンションラバー以外は、基本的に作製可能ですが、ハイテンションラバー以外でも、一部作製ができない組み合わせもございますので、事前にお問い合わせください。なお、価格は定価の40%増、納期は40日~50日程度いただいております。なお、ご注文は1枚から承ります。
    詳細につきましては、お客様サポートセンターへご確認ください。」
    -------------------------------

    In short, it says the customized rubber can be made with an exception of tensioned rubber. 40% increase from normal retail price, L/T 40 to 50 days, minimum order of 1pc.
    It doesn't matter if they stopped offering. The customization is more or less limited to sponge thickness/hardness and mix and matching models within the same series. Just like the custom blade service they offered that was limited to common structures, you couldn't order something like what KLH used.



    High-tensioned getting ruled out makes it clear Butterfly acts like DHS and others here. Like I wrote above, something "real custom" like the Sriver + Bryce that only PROS can get, or like CQ's Bryce Speed + Spring Sponge at WTTC 2009.

    Last year, a Japanese blogger contacted Butterfly asking why they couldn't list what Harimoto was really using on their official site. The response is "It is very difficult to answer..." because of "trade secret."
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  2. yogi_bear is offline
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    #22
    So KLH's blade has a 2nd layer of spruce for his custom blade. I did not know what wood layer was used before.

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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    It doesn't matter if they stopped offering. The customization is more or less limited to sponge thickness/hardness and mix and matching models within the same series. Just like the custom blade service they offered that was limited to common structures, you couldn't order something like what KLH used.



    High-tensioned getting ruled out makes it clear Butterfly acts like DHS and others here. Like I wrote above, something "real custom" like the Sriver + Bryce that only PROS can get, or like CQ's Bryce Speed + Spring Sponge at WTTC 2009.

    Last year, a Japanese blogger contacted Butterfly asking why they couldn't list what Harimoto was really using on their official site. The response is "It is very difficult to answer..." because of "trade secret."
    To tell you the truth, tensioned/spring/KLH custom is sort of available if it's ordered by reputable TT shop with long history with butterfly but I agree with you that they're pretty much same as DHS if ordinary TT players can't get hold of it without the help from dubious online TT shops.

    By the way, in that link to the blog, Butterfly said "It is no "trade secret" it's on our website!".

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by igorponger
    BUTTERFLY ONLY PRODUCING COMMERCIAL RUBBERS. ONE CAN GET THOSE FROM A CASUAL SHOP.

    According to ITTF T4 Technical Regulations, the section regarding rubber legality,
    -- it is the commercial version of rubber that is solely allowed for international events.
    There is no such statement in T4.
    We had a long dispute in another thread regarding market availability and the official response of ITTF is stated there.
    ITTF is not responsible about the market availability.
    A LARC rubber may never appear on the market, so it may never get a "commercial" status.
    DIGNICS, like many other rubbers, has been in LARC for many years, legal for competitions, but not "commercial" and not market available. And during that period the only way IITF could control it is to descard it from a players' balde and examine it in the laboratory.
    It is in the ITTF authority to check if the market available rubbers fit with the LARC authorized samples.
    It is in the ITTF authority to check if players rubbers fit with the LARC authorized samples.
    Do they do it and how they do it is another story, its just a presumption that a commercial market available rubber should be the same as the one on the blade of the top player. But is it?
    I continue to doubt, because there is no legal evidence for a particular ITTF check about that.
    And while many top players use LARC listed, but not market available rubbers, I don't care about that at all, as that will always mean that the top players are playing with SPECIAL rubbers we can never have.
    Thats all.

  5. zeio is offline
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    #25
    Ya, it's difficult to answer because it's no trade secret. People knew Boll and Mizutani were already playing/testing with T05 Hard/D05/tacky rubber for so long and they were still listed as using T05/T80 until the respective models were released.
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    #26
    To be honest, most of us can't use pro setup to its full potential so I'm not really worried about "commercial" version being dumbed down a little. Hearing accusation on certain pros getting edge over other pros because of their special treatment, is not very nice.
    It looks like ITTF is caring more about how the rubbers look rather than how it's provided though.

  7. zeio is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    ...Do they do it and how they do it is another story, its just a presumption that a commercial market available rubber should be the same as the one on the blade of the top player. But is it?
    I continue to doubt, because there is no legal evidence for a particular ITTF check about that.
    And while many top players use LARC listed, but not market available rubbers, I don't care about that at all, as that will always mean that the top players are playing with SPECIAL rubbers we can never have.
    Thats all.
    The most popular example is the Friendship 755 that Deng Yaping is said to have used, though she mentioned it was 563 before correcting it to 799 during a TV commentary in 2006. It's said CNT specifically demanded Friendship to not make it available to the general public until DYP retired.

    Fukuhara is another. Over the years, the ones she's said to have used include Butterfly custom-made 563 clone, TSP custom-made medium-pips and Armstrong custom-made Attack 8.
    Last edited by zeio; 05-16-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    It doesn't matter if they stopped offering. The customization is more or less limited to sponge thickness/hardness and mix and matching models within the same series. Just like the custom blade service they offered that was limited to common structures, you couldn't order something like what KLH used.



    High-tensioned getting ruled out makes it clear Butterfly acts like DHS and others here. Like I wrote above, something "real custom" like the Sriver + Bryce that only PROS can get, or like CQ's Bryce Speed + Spring Sponge at WTTC 2009.

    Last year, a Japanese blogger contacted Butterfly asking why they couldn't list what Harimoto was really using on their official site. The response is "It is very difficult to answer..." because of "trade secret."
    that's more like an avalox p500 with one of the spruce layers replaced by alc.
    only the handle is "kong linghui special".

    the real "kong linghui special" had kiri core and the outer layers were hinoki.
    very different blade.

  9. zeio is offline
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    #29
    I see where AndySmith is coming. For example, DHS claims it is mostly psychological. OTOH, we have Boll saying he plays harder rubbers in smaller halls, and vice versa.

    Interview with Guan Yasong, DHS's Marketing Manager and Product Center Supervisor from the 7th volume of Table Tennis World in 2012.
    红双喜: 特制的秘密,就是没有秘密
    ...
    TTW:很多为专业队量身打造的专属球板以及试打品,会流传到业余球迷手中,觉得比市场版好,被被捧为神话,红双喜怎么看待的?
    红双喜:有次试打活动,我贴上去一片市场版狂飙,有个业余比赛的前三名试打完感觉非常好,我说回头给他配一个,他不要,就要现场这个,把胶皮撕下来给他,其实很多是心里因素,像狂飙王、狂飙皓、狂飙宁、狂飚霞、狂飙龙。,同款底板的生产工艺始终保持一致,我们给相关运动员一次性送10支、20支,其他的用做市场销售,差别其实非常小,主要是指标公差范围的差异,是同型号间正常的个体差异,红双喜为国家队配备很多器材,流出是很正常的,比方运动员当做礼物送给亲朋好友,大家觉得从国家队出来的更好,是非常正常的心理反应。
    ...
    TTW:省狂和国狂在市场上一直供不应求的状况,为什么不加大生产量呢?
    红双喜:专业运动员非常敏感,一些微小变化都能引起技术打法的变形,套胶的差别主要就是各点技术数据的公差范围,国套的公差范围非常小,省套稍微略大一些,市场套胶在一个水平上面。套胶是橡胶制品,保证每个点上的参数一致非常困难,所以国套、省套的比率不会很高,提高质量的话,意味着要做非常多的产品,按照这个比率我才能得到更多的国套和省套,从产能的角度来说是不容许的。
    DHS: The secret behind custom-made is that there is no secret
    ...
    TTW: A lot of personalized blades and prototypes tailored for the professional team get passed on to the amateur fans. They feel those are better than the commercial version, to the point of myth. How does DHS see it?
    DHS: There was a promotional event where I glued on a commercial Hurricane [3]. This amateur player who finished top 3 in a tournament felt really good after trying it out. When I told him I'd give him a new one, he refused and demanded that one, by tearing the rubber off right there. In fact, most of it comes down to psychological factors. For Hurricane King, Hurricane Hao, Hurricane Ning, Hurricane Xia, Hurricane Long, the production process for each series is always consistent. We provide the corresponding players with 10 to 20 pieces at a time, and the other ones are used for market sales. The difference is actually very small, the difference is mainly in the engineering tolerance, the individual differences of the same model. DHS provides a lot of equipment for the national team, so the leaks are very normal. For example, players use them as gifts for their relatives and friends. It's a very normal psychological reaction for people to feel they're better coming from the national team.
    ...
    TTW: Provincial Hurricane and National Hurricane are always in shortage on the market. Why not increase production volume?
    DHS: Professionals are very sensitive, even just a little change is enough to cause a distortion on the technical style. The difference in sandwich rubbers is mostly the tolerance of various parameters. The tolerance for National is the tightest. For Provincial the range is a little larger. Commercial is on a certain level. Sandwich rubber is a rubber product, as such it is very difficult to assure every parameter is consistent. This is why the yield rates of National and Provincial versions are not as high. If we were to increase volume, it would mean we need to produce many more units to get more National and Provincial versions at those yield rates, which is prohibitive in terms of production capacity.

    Quote Originally Posted by StehTischtennis
    ...Here he shows a Tengergy for his forehand weighing 99,6g and talks about his backhand rubber weighing around 93g or 94g.

    Interestingly he talks about how he's going to be testing his 4 rackets in the match hall and then deciding with which racket he will play the tournament and that in bigger halls he prefers softer rubbers as he prefers getting a little bit of "help"/catapult effect from the rubber and that he plays harder rubbers (he brought up to 104g for his forehand) in smaller halls.

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    Last edited by zeio; 05-16-2019 at 11:06 AM.
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    #30
    When it comes to W968 and HL5 they use different gluing process and glue from what I've been told resulting in more dwell on W968. What are your thoughts about that? When are the blades rejected by the players? Does Ma Long get his blades unmarked and then he chooses the ones he wants, the rest goes back to DHS to mark either W968 or HL5? Does Ma Long send back the ones he wants to get them marked with date and number 1?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    I see where AndySmith is coming. For example, DHS claims it is mostly psychological. OTOH, we have Boll saying he plays harder rubbers in smaller halls, and vice versa.

    Interview with Guan Yasong, DHS's Marketing Manager and Product Center Supervisor from the 7th volume of Table Tennis World in 2012.

    DHS: The secret behind custom-made is that there is no secret
    ...
    TTW: A lot of personalized blades and prototypes tailored for the professional team get passed on to the amateur fans. They feel those are better than the commercial version, to the point of myth. How does DHS see it?
    DHS: There was a promotional event where I glued on a commercial Hurricane [3]. This amateur player who finished top 3 in a tournament felt really good after trying it out. When I told him I'd give him a new one, he refused and demanded that one, by tearing the rubber off right there. In fact, most of it comes down to psychological factors. For Hurricane King, Hurricane Hao, Hurricane Ning, Hurricane Xia, Hurricane Long, the production process for each series is always consistent. We provide the corresponding players with 10 to 20 pieces at a time, and the other ones are used for market sales. The difference is actually very small, the difference is mainly in the engineering tolerance, the individual differences of the same model. DHS provides a lot of equipment for the national team, so the leaks are very normal. For example, players use them as gifts for their relatives and friends. It's a very normal psychological reaction for people to feel they're better coming from the national team.
    ...
    TTW: Provincial Hurricane and National Hurricane are always in shortage on the market. Why not increase production volume?
    DHS: Professionals are very sensitive, even just a little change is enough to cause a distortion on the technical style. The difference in sandwich rubbers is mostly the tolerance of various parameters. The tolerance for National is the tightest. For Provincial the range is a little larger. Commercial is on a certain level. Sandwich rubber is a rubber product, as such it is very difficult to assure every parameter is consistent. This is why the yield rates of National and Provincial versions are not as high. If we were to increase volume, it would mean we need to produce many more units to get more National and Provincial versions at those yield rates, which is prohibitive in terms of production capacity.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    .... For Hurricane King, Hurricane Hao, Hurricane Ning, Hurricane Xia, Hurricane Long, the production process for each series is always consistent. We provide the corresponding players with 10 to 20 pieces at a time, and the other ones are used for market sales. The difference is actually very small, the difference is mainly in the engineering tolerance, the individual differences of the same model....
    ...
    TTW: Provincial Hurricane and National Hurricane are always in shortage on the market. Why not increase production volume?
    DHS: Professionals are very sensitive, even just a little change is enough to cause a distortion on the technical style. The difference in sandwich rubbers is mostly the tolerance of various parameters. The tolerance for National is the tightest. For Provincial the range is a little larger. Commercial is on a certain level. Sandwich rubber is a rubber product, as such it is very difficult to assure every parameter is consistent. This is why the yield rates of National and Provincial versions are not as high. If we were to increase volume, it would mean we need to produce many more units to get more National and Provincial versions at those yield rates, which is prohibitive in terms of production capacity.
    Zeio posts are as always- of the highest quality.
    Exactly the same was said by Tibhar CEO in the interview done by tabletennis11

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  12. zeio is offline
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RidTheKid
    When it comes to W968 and HL5 they use different gluing process and glue from what I've been told resulting in more dwell on W968. What are your thoughts about that? When are the blades rejected by the players? Does Ma Long get his blades unmarked and then he chooses the ones he wants, the rest goes back to DHS to mark either W968 or HL5? Does Ma Long send back the ones he wants to get them marked with date and number 1?
    That's what I read, too, where the gluing separates them. I can't tell as I haven't really looked into it. As for "culling" blades, LXX has shed some light on that.

    http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum...onal-h3#990282
    LXX also gave the OP a set of N68, National H3 and T64. When someone asked about the Carbonado 145 that LXX "used" at Rio, OP replied saying LXX told him that the handle and blade are separate. Stiga gives her 150 blades each time, from which she picks out not more than 5, must be 95g and above.

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