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Need to relax and extend the arm so you can swing and snap the forearm together. Maybe try to relax the hand so the racket points down and I think the rest will be relaxed.
If you would throw your racket far away you would not throw how you play because it would not get far. Get no energy from pushing the arm forward. Even if you try to use the body to get power i do not feel like it would help much because the arm is a bit tense like that so it would not swing more.
If you would throw your racket far away you would not throw how you play because it would not get far. Get no energy from pushing the arm forward. Even if you try to use the body to get power i do not feel like it would help much because the arm is a bit tense like that so it would not swing more.
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Your strokes do not sound like the contact is good. I may be wrong. While looping heavy underspin balls, it is easier to spot problems with form. That stroke is often used to diagnose issues with looping in my club, because it requires all elements of the form to be over accentuated. While I have limited knowledge it might be a helpful tool for more experienced players here.
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From what little I can tell, your contact is actually pretty good. It's just how much effort it takes you to make that stroke that could be a problem in practice. I don't see how you could really significantly improve on that contact, if it takes you that much effort to generate the contact you are currently getting. In essence you are going to be limited by how inefficient it is for your stroke to generate brushing, we can only realistically demand only so much physicality.
Firstly, you already know this, but it's very relevant, you are gripping the HELL out of that bat.
As a consequence of your death grip on the bat, your bat ends up very close to the axis of rotation of your body, and as such, your hand and a part of your forearm actually swings THROUGH the path that your bat takes.
I don't know how to explain this clearly in words, but typically, your elbow is supposed to be the pivot point for your stroke, with roughly a straight line going from your elbow to the tip of the bat, so your bat is at the maximum distance from the point of pivot (eg maximum leverage). Your bat should be swinging on a wider arc than your hand, which is in turn on a wider arc than your forearm. Your hand should not be following the bat, in the same arc like in your swing.
In your stroke, it's like your shoulder is the point of pivot, and your whole hand and most of your forearm is punching through the line your swing. Your bent arm is actually reducing the distance between the bat and the point of pivot.
That stroke, while the amount of brushing isn't fantastic, it's actually pretty good, but it's just that, honestly, it's kinda exhausting even watching the amoun of effort it takes you to produce 'pretty good' contact because your stroke is very inefficient.
Firstly, you already know this, but it's very relevant, you are gripping the HELL out of that bat.
As a consequence of your death grip on the bat, your bat ends up very close to the axis of rotation of your body, and as such, your hand and a part of your forearm actually swings THROUGH the path that your bat takes.
I don't know how to explain this clearly in words, but typically, your elbow is supposed to be the pivot point for your stroke, with roughly a straight line going from your elbow to the tip of the bat, so your bat is at the maximum distance from the point of pivot (eg maximum leverage). Your bat should be swinging on a wider arc than your hand, which is in turn on a wider arc than your forearm. Your hand should not be following the bat, in the same arc like in your swing.
In your stroke, it's like your shoulder is the point of pivot, and your whole hand and most of your forearm is punching through the line your swing. Your bent arm is actually reducing the distance between the bat and the point of pivot.
That stroke, while the amount of brushing isn't fantastic, it's actually pretty good, but it's just that, honestly, it's kinda exhausting even watching the amoun of effort it takes you to produce 'pretty good' contact because your stroke is very inefficient.
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ok, I will go back and make sure you have access.
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Yep. It is that simple. Of course you have to train systematically.
By the way, a 2500+ player I used to hit with sometimes made me understand the value of not trying to hit every shot with as much spin as possible. Viktor can get insane amounts of lefty topspin from either side but he also hits high arc balls that look like the ought to be loaded -- but aren't. Guys at my level are badly fooled. Guys at his own level aren't so much. He also hits extreme angles. I cand do that too, (at least with my FH) I copied him and worked on it. A lot.
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MOG, you have to relax more while looping. Your whole upper body is too rigid.
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This is the video of my fh after I had warmed for 5 minutes!!
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This is two strokes:
Stroke 1:
Stroke 2:
There are two important things to note in either stroke:
1) The angle of the bend in the elbow is pretty much constant from one photo to the next. That means your arm is not going from a little more straight to a little more bend. That means your elbow joint and forearm are in a fixed position in relationship to your upper arm.
2) The elbow goes from much lower to much higher. This means that almost all of the arm movement comes from your shoulder joint.
This is Ariel Hsing:
Key factors: 1) Elbow goes from straighter to more bent so racket moves much faster. 2) Elbow goes from lower to higher, but nowhere near as much lift of elbow as yours.
I was looking for a video of her where she tied her upper arm to her torso so she could not lift it while training, and, when asked by a reporter what that was for she answered: "Forehand Fixing Machine!"
She fixed her upper arm to train doing the FH stroke with only the forearm to get it into her stroke and her FH improved dramatically.
Stroke 1:
Stroke 2:
There are two important things to note in either stroke:
1) The angle of the bend in the elbow is pretty much constant from one photo to the next. That means your arm is not going from a little more straight to a little more bend. That means your elbow joint and forearm are in a fixed position in relationship to your upper arm.
2) The elbow goes from much lower to much higher. This means that almost all of the arm movement comes from your shoulder joint.
This is Ariel Hsing:
Key factors: 1) Elbow goes from straighter to more bent so racket moves much faster. 2) Elbow goes from lower to higher, but nowhere near as much lift of elbow as yours.
I was looking for a video of her where she tied her upper arm to her torso so she could not lift it while training, and, when asked by a reporter what that was for she answered: "Forehand Fixing Machine!"
She fixed her upper arm to train doing the FH stroke with only the forearm to get it into her stroke and her FH improved dramatically.
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Maybe this video I post every so often has useful info for you on what is going on with your stroke. The video is goofy just like I am. But it does explain the different components of the FH loop.
There is a complication to the movement your arm is doing that is not 100% covered here. But, in the movements that show only the upper arm moving, that is part of what is going on in your FH stroke.
By the way, any time I say: "Look at the speed of the movement of my arm," in the video, translate that to: "look at the speed of the movement of my hand." The hand substitutes for the racket since I did not have a racket. And in any of the strokes where my elbow is bending during the stroke, my hand is moving much faster than in any of the movements where my elbow is not bending. The movements where I combine movement of the upper arm with movement of the elbow, the racket goes so much faster my hand becomes much more of a blur as a result of the added speed.
There is a complication to the movement your arm is doing that is not 100% covered here. But, in the movements that show only the upper arm moving, that is part of what is going on in your FH stroke.
By the way, any time I say: "Look at the speed of the movement of my arm," in the video, translate that to: "look at the speed of the movement of my hand." The hand substitutes for the racket since I did not have a racket. And in any of the strokes where my elbow is bending during the stroke, my hand is moving much faster than in any of the movements where my elbow is not bending. The movements where I combine movement of the upper arm with movement of the elbow, the racket goes so much faster my hand becomes much more of a blur as a result of the added speed.
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New video specific to the movement that makes your stroke a little complicated MOG.
These things are hard to change though. Having a more rotational aspect to the stroke would take a lot of work to develop. And maybe it is unreasonable to think someone our age can make those changes.
By the way, I want to be clear. I am definitely not a table tennis coach. Nor would I ever want to be. I am however, a movement analyst and analyzing the movements in a TT stroke presents a particular challenge because there are so many things going on all at once. I used my movement training to help change my stroke from really lousy mechanics to sort of acceptable mechanics. But, I understand ways to change habitual patterns of movement and it took a lot of work to change my stroke.
So, someone looping like this for a long time, this is hard to change.
Also to be noted, when you have a high ball and you smash it, you do something different which is mechanically better. Which is also why your smashes on higher balls go faster than these loops which are not so fasts and not super spinny either. With the mechanics you are using you are still getting a decent shot. But improving the mechanics would make it so you could get a lot more without anywhere near as much effort.
These things are hard to change though. Having a more rotational aspect to the stroke would take a lot of work to develop. And maybe it is unreasonable to think someone our age can make those changes.
By the way, I want to be clear. I am definitely not a table tennis coach. Nor would I ever want to be. I am however, a movement analyst and analyzing the movements in a TT stroke presents a particular challenge because there are so many things going on all at once. I used my movement training to help change my stroke from really lousy mechanics to sort of acceptable mechanics. But, I understand ways to change habitual patterns of movement and it took a lot of work to change my stroke.
So, someone looping like this for a long time, this is hard to change.
Also to be noted, when you have a high ball and you smash it, you do something different which is mechanically better. Which is also why your smashes on higher balls go faster than these loops which are not so fasts and not super spinny either. With the mechanics you are using you are still getting a decent shot. But improving the mechanics would make it so you could get a lot more without anywhere near as much effort.
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By the way, I should give some credit. I did do the work to undo years of habitual patterns of movement to rebuild and change my FH technique. But Edmund Suen and Damien Provost also did a lot of work to get me to be able to hit a FH while getting my elbow to open and close as part of the stroke. And without those two I would not have even known to try and change my FH technique or how to. In terms of time, Edmund spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time with me; but Damien was helping and also telling Edmund what he needed to have me work on; Damien was coaching Edmund and Edmund spending hours training with me. My repayment was feeding balls to Edmund for him to loop around the net. But, that is also why I learned how to go around the net when I could barely loop. hahahaha. And what an inexpensive payment for how much Edmund helped me if you think about it.
And there were a few sessions where Damien showed up, watched and told me what to do and told Edmund what to have me work on. Those were big.
So, without that, my elbow joint/forearm would be locked like that in my FH loop still as well.
Some of what I did to fix it was hit with a robot over and over where I was not using my body, my upper arm, not anything but my elbow joint/forearm, and changing frequency on the robot: more space between balls and slowly speeding it up to the point where I could keep the stroke entirely from the elbow joint/ forearm snap.
After a while, when I added in the body, I could do the stroke with the body and just the elbow joint/ forearm. Then I started being able to add the upper arm without losing the forearm snap.
I did a lot of self hitting to get the technique as well. And shadow drills.
The idea is to get your nervous system to get used to the new pattern so the old pattern does not pop back in. And there was a period of months and months where I would have the stroke fixed and then the old form would start creeping back in.
So, fixing that kind of thing is pretty hard.
I have heard Baal say it is not likely to happen for someone over 40. I think he is right. It is hard to change that. But it can be changed. It just takes work.
With a kid, you can fix it in a matter of hours though, sometimes minutes.
I have a feeling Ariel Hsing worked decently hard on fixing that. Even though she was young, she had most likely been doing the stroke without the elbow/forearm for thousands of hours of training before she tried to fix it.
And there were a few sessions where Damien showed up, watched and told me what to do and told Edmund what to have me work on. Those were big.
So, without that, my elbow joint/forearm would be locked like that in my FH loop still as well.
Some of what I did to fix it was hit with a robot over and over where I was not using my body, my upper arm, not anything but my elbow joint/forearm, and changing frequency on the robot: more space between balls and slowly speeding it up to the point where I could keep the stroke entirely from the elbow joint/ forearm snap.
After a while, when I added in the body, I could do the stroke with the body and just the elbow joint/ forearm. Then I started being able to add the upper arm without losing the forearm snap.
I did a lot of self hitting to get the technique as well. And shadow drills.
The idea is to get your nervous system to get used to the new pattern so the old pattern does not pop back in. And there was a period of months and months where I would have the stroke fixed and then the old form would start creeping back in.
So, fixing that kind of thing is pretty hard.
I have heard Baal say it is not likely to happen for someone over 40. I think he is right. It is hard to change that. But it can be changed. It just takes work.
With a kid, you can fix it in a matter of hours though, sometimes minutes.
I have a feeling Ariel Hsing worked decently hard on fixing that. Even though she was young, she had most likely been doing the stroke without the elbow/forearm for thousands of hours of training before she tried to fix it.
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By the way, I should give some credit. I did do the work to undo years of habitual patterns of movement to rebuild and change my FH technique. But Edmund Suen and Damien Provost also did a lot of work to get me to be able to hit a FH while getting my elbow to open and close as part of the stroke. And without those two I would not have even known to try and change my FH technique or how to. In terms of time, Edmund spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time with me; but Damien was helping and also telling Edmund what he needed to have me work on; Damien was coaching Edmund and Edmund spending hours training with me. My repayment was feeding balls to him for him to loop around the net. But, that is also why I learned how to go around the net when I could barely loop. hahahaha.
And there were a few sessions where Damien showed up, watched and told me what to do and told Edmund what to have me work on. Those were big.
So, without that, my elbow joint/forearm would be locked like that in my FH loop still as well.
Some of what I did to fix it was hit with a robot over and over where I was not using my body, my upper arm, not anything but my elbow joint/forearm, and changing frequency on the robot: more space between balls and slowly speeding it up to the point where I could keep the stroke all elbow joint.
After a while, when I added the body in, I could do the stroke with the body and just the elbow joint/ forearm. Then I started being able to add the upper arm without losing the forearm snap.
I did a lot of self hitting to get the technique as well. And shadow drills.
The idea is to get your nervous system to get used to the new pattern so the old pattern does not pop back in. And there was a period of months and months where I would have the stroke fixed and then the old form would start creeping back in.
So, fixing that kind of thing is pretty hard.
I have heard Baal say it is not likely to happen for someone over 40. I think he is right. It is hard to change that. But it can be changed. It just takes work.
With a kid, you can fix it in a matter of hours though, sometimes minutes.
I have a feeling Ariel Hsing worked decently hard on fixing that. Even though she was young, she had been doing the stroke without the elbow/forearm for thousands of hours of training before she tried to fix it.
However Carl 5 years ago every fh i hit was a flat drive off the bounce, so to have a bad shoulder loop is an improvement on my original fh drive.
It is ironic that my fh drive would probably be a very good shot with the new ABS ball but I seem to have lost it somewhere.
I think it will be hard for me to add wrist movement to my loop because of my grip and i might not try until my feet and forearm improve. But I am going to work on more forearm movement in the loop and the footwork initially, despite the videos I do get good topspin on fh at times.
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Yep. I agree.
But your FH drive comes out on the shots with the higher ball and that stroke is actually just a different stroke but you get more pace on those shots. And I would say, you having taught yourself to loop is something noteworthy. I don't think any of it is essential. You can loop how you do and still get to a decently high level. Understanding the mechanics helps you understand where more power, speed, spin, pop might come from.
Like, in that first goofy video of me explaining the different components of the mechanics of the stroke, if you look at how different the speed of my hand is when the weight transfer, the core rotation, the elbow and upper arm are all part of the stroke compared to any of the other versions, you get to see a stark difference.
Hard to fix. But fixable. It can be done.
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