A rubber between MX-P and EL-S

[UpSideDownCarl]

You say she wouldn't, so I ask again, have you ever seen or been on the table with these players live? I have. If you haven't, I wonder how you can make this claim, which is really hurting your credibility before you've even really gotten started...

This is also a great point.

And I will reiterate, when someone makes a claim like that, for people to actually take them seriously, they would have to show the footage. Without footage, we can only assume you do not have such an accurate assessment of what you are actually doing.

With a firm assertion that you are NOT WILLING to post footage of yourself, we have a good enough answer about whether what you say is accurate or not.

Just cherry pick one shot at a time, edit the footage, find 4-5 loops (not smashes, not slaps) that you feel show you having more power than Hayata. I will be totally happy to find out that I am wrong if you are actually right. But post the footage or stop saying you have more power.

By the way, technically power is the combination of speed and spin. Speed without spin is not really power. Spin without speed can be powerful. But when the two are combined, that is real power in table tennis. You have to really be transferring power into the ball to get both. Which is why a slap ball will not suffice. More power will actually mean a higher spin/speed ratio. If you watch Ma Long's shots from 2007-2009, they are faster than today. But today, Ma Long has more power than he did when he was young because he gets soooooooo much more spin and almost as much speed.

 

[Michael Kitt]

I have only seen Quadri Aruna come to my club, but I only watched, didn't play him. Some would say he's one of the hardest hitters. His forehand is... different, he probably has a higher level of speed compared to spin than typical Chinese technique.

If I said I have more power than him then I could more understand the reason for being attacked.

 

[zyu81]

I have only seen Quadri Aruna come to my club, but I only watched, didn't play him. Some would say he's one of the hardest hitters. His forehand is... different, he probably has a higher level of speed compared to spin than typical Chinese technique.

If I said I have more power than him then I could more understand the reason for being attacked.

Right. So you have no idea how hard Hayata or other top, similarly hard hitting, female players do. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't think it is an attack but more of a fact check. You made some frankly ridiculous claims so it may lead one to question where you are coming from on all the claims you have made regarding the rubbers and their capabilities, in this thread.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I have only seen Quadri Aruna come to my club, but I only watched, didn't play him. Some would say he's one of the hardest hitters. His forehand is... different, he probably has a higher level of speed compared to spin than typical Chinese technique.

If I said I have more power than him then I could more understand the reason for being attacked.

Rather than seeing it as being attacked, see it as that you are being called out.

Again, if you can show the footage, there is no reason for us to say any of what we have said. Show the footage. Otherwise, don't bother saying you have more power than someone.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Alright. This is martial arts. I have a friend. He is about 5'4". Maybe he is 180 lbs. He is in his 50s. He has been doing martial arts since he is maybe 8 years old. He teaches martial arts. He is pretty much a badass.

Me, him and this other guy are standing outside of my friend's jazz club. The other guy is 6'4", 270lbs. The are flapping their lips at each other. The little guy says, "I tell you what, lets go punch for punch. You can go first. Punch me as hard as you can in my shoulder and lets see what happens." Big guy takes a running start. Takes a giant overhand right aiming at the little guy's shoulder. The little guy is standing there relaxed. And just before contact he tensed up just the right amount. Little guy did not move. Did not budge. Big guy bounced back holding his wrist and saying, "I think I sprained my wrist." Little guy said, "Now I don't even have to throw my punch." It was technique.

Different friend. Martial arts. But it is the same kind of story. Little guy is on rollerblades. Big guy is 330lbs. Little guy is 5'5" at most 140. AND HE IS ON SKATES. Little guy does Ninjitsu. He is skating around the big guy like, "are you ready to play fight." Big guy says, "there is no effing way you stand a chance against me with those skates on." Within 2 min, the big guy is on the ground and the little guy has him in a hold with pressure points and is saying: "do you give up."

Technique, technique, technique.

 

[Michael Kitt]

In fighting, just having a 10 pound weight advantage is considered unfair, that's why weight classes are divided in such a way. You describe winning without the use of power so it doesn't directly correlate. Michael Jai White has an interview saying he would beat Bruce Lee in a fight because he weighs more. It's a valid point, as he has more power in his strikes. The other additional technique elements aren't relevant to this discussion.

I didn't test topspin to topspin rally, generally I win points outright with any setup in that situation when it lands, if done from close to the table, so it doesn't really matter outside of pro level.

Edit: Well actually incoming balls were a slow topspin I believe.

 

[zyu81]

I didn't test topspin to topspin rally, generally I win points outright with any setup in that situation when it lands, if done from close to the table, so it doesn't really matter outside of pro level.

Against players of what level? You play topspin-to-topspin rallies close to the table and win almost all of them?

 

[Michael Kitt]

If someone hits their hardest topspin shot vs me, if I'm in position I will hit close to my hardest topspin shot back to them from close to the table. Sometimes I will start my swing before they even finish theirs and then correct. I think nobody has ever returned that. It's my favorite thing to do in table tennis by far, the reason I play is for those opportunities. Usually they are still recovering when it hits their side.

But anyways, the first topspin drive is mostly what I was testing.

 

[P1ngP0ng3r]

I suggest to end this off-topic discussion, as this doesn't help the TS and/or other members interested in TS' question. Thanks.

Let's get back on-topic.
I'm surprised to see no one mentioned Vega X (or maybe I overlooked it). It feels softer than the 47.5 would suggest but still firmer compared to EL-S. Okay, it doesn't pack that much punch compared to MX-S, in both speed and spin. But it offers a decent level of control in return. In 2.0 or max thickness, this could well be the rubber TS is looking for.

 

[Der_Echte]

Switching from h3 to T05 takes very little adjustment. For drives you can generally use the same stroke and T05 will accept it.

Switching from T05 to H3, the H3 might not accept your stroke previously used for T05.

Disagree totally (about switching from H3 to T05 or even vice-versa), if you are talking the high performance bang impact. Such a totally different shot, grip, and impact.

Now if you are talking just above newbs who are trying to play offence and have not yet learned a biomechanically sound stroke, do not yet have command of grip and impact, then I might agree.

 

[Der_Echte]

Switching from h3 to T05 takes very little adjustment. For drives you can generally use the same stroke and T05 will accept it.

Switching from T05 to H3, the H3 might not accept your stroke previously used for T05.

I am no MMA expert but I believe that looping a ball is much more abstract, and has lots more variables involved when it comes to the strength of the human and the strength of the ball that that human can loop. There are plenty of extremely physically strong top players who, despite being highly trained and a high level, do not loop purely as hard as a scrawny fellow.

So if you think this stuff is really simple logic, I will ask again if you have ever actually been on the table, or at the least seen in person, people who are able to do the things that you are speaking about. I believe that if you have, you would not think that the strongest person off the table will necessary have a stronger loop than a weaker counterpart, given that they both "incorporate" brush. Or that it is "not a hard concept".

I am going to make odds of 999 to 1 that Kitt has not really experienced on the table or even on the sidelines what pro level player does to the ball. Kitt's posts are not consistent with someone who has seen this or been up close on hte other end on serious shots.

 

[Der_Echte]

All the discussion about technique and biomechnic IS relevant... has direct effect on shot, especially with these kinds of rubbers.

I could play FH with either rubber, I used to really hate on EL-P the one time I had it, but it really was a bad glue job, got a sheet a few months ago and I made it sing. Even so, I am going softie for a few month months, a half year, or whatever it takes to improve my timing to impact, so that I can be a badder bad-azz with a mid firm, and maybe later, a firm rubber. For now, soft it is.

 

[Michael Kitt]

The thread has been derailed due to you guys, enough already. I know what I'm talking about, whether you agree or not is of no concern to me.

Vega X I've heard many good things. I haven't played much with rubbers that meet the criteria desired though. Since virtuoso mentioned Rakza Z, which might be a bit harder than what you're looking for, that will depend on your technique how much you end up liking it. I think it's great.

 

[zyu81]

If someone hits their hardest topspin shot vs me, if I'm in position I will hit close to my hardest topspin shot back to them from close to the table. Sometimes I will start my swing before they even finish theirs and then correct. I think nobody has ever returned that. It's my favorite thing to do in table tennis by far, the reason I play is for those opportunities. Usually they are still recovering when it hits their side.

But anyways, the first topspin drive is mostly what I was testing.

Ok so basically what you are describing here is a very low percentage shot which will happen maybe 1-2 times in an entire match? By the way, what you describe is not really what people are talking about when they say topspin-topspin.

Between...

1) this post above
2) saying you hit harder than one of the top woman players in the world, one who in particular is known for hitting hard, just by virtue of the fact that she is a woman and based off of one 3 second edited GIF, despite you never having heard of this player nor having watched females of her level play
3) saying you have a “Chinese” stroke
4) later saying that there aren’t big differences between looping with H3 and T05, despite using H3 unboosted which no players who hit as hard as Hayata would do
5) conducting rubber tests by “being fed easy balls”
6) not knowing that H3 has higher end power than T05 (at least when boosted, which any player who hits as hard as Hayata would do...)

...you have made many posts that are not consistent of someone who is able to make accurate and objective assessments of equipment or table tennis play in general. I could be wrong. If not, that is fine, but being a little more realistic about your knowledge base would be helpful in understanding why you have made some of the assertions that you have.

But since you have doubled down on defending that "you know what you are talking about", but don’t want to post video, do you have anything else such as ranking/rating/league you play in to convey your level? I think it would be helpful for people on this thread who have read your assessments to understand where you are coming from.

Anyways, this all ties back to zeio’s “hit harder” post. The harder you hit the more the H3 will come to life and give. But it needs to be boosted. And it takes someone who can really loop hard with quality to access these higher levels of ball quality that zeio is referring to.

 

[Kuba Hajto]

On topic:
I've recently played with EL-P, MX-P on Tibhar Curious and I do play have Donic Ultra Power with Vega X. Both blades are clipper clones with similar thickness. Vega X for me is harder to spin than MX-P. MX-P is faster, Vega X feels way more direct to me. It was easier to generate Arc with MX-P for me. Hardness wise, felt similar to me, MX-P maybe a tiny tad softer. Both Vega X and MX-P brand new sheets with less than 15hrs on each.

Off topic:
I played with one of the second and first league pros on one gig, and you could literally feel their power. It was really unreal. Those balls weren't that fast, but they were really hard to control spin wise. You can not measure what you feel by blocking such ball, just be seeing someone play...

 

[Konrad Bak]

deleted

 

[zyu81]

what about Victas V15 Extra, reading some older posts, it is suggested that it has better control than MX-P, yet still very spinny

I found V15 to be a much better rubber all around than MX-P.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

The thread has been derailed due to you guys, enough already. I know what I'm talking about, whether you agree or not is of no concern to me.

Vega X I've heard many good things. I haven't played much with rubbers that meet the criteria desired though.

Actually, the thread has been led off in this direction because you boasted of things and will not produce the video evidence.

Show footage or stop making these kinds of claims. That is very simple. If you make those kinds of claims, you need to show the evidence. End of story.

Also:

Sometimes I will start my swing before they even finish theirs and then correct. I think nobody has ever returned that.

Waldner was famous for watching players break to one side while he was mid-stroke and then change the direction of his shot to hit behind his opponent. Any decent level player can do this. If you are in your backswing before your opponent's shot is off, it REALLY makes me wonder what level you are playing at. Any decent level club player will see that and totally mess you up with intelligent shot placement. Also, if you are in your backswing that early, there is no way you can get the power advantage from the recoil and whip that a backswing gives to your stroke. Backswinging that early automatically means your timing cannot be on. Watch any top baseball player swinging at a fastball: the backswing is timed to the ball approaching so it gives the swing power. In TT you would need to do this as well to have good power. Backswinging to early would indicate the timing would have to be off which would create a loss of power. So......to be dissuaded from what you have caused me to think your level must be, I would now need to see a decent amount of footage.

All you have to do is stop making claims about your abilities, OR, post footage and this line of discussion that you brought up, goes away.

And, again, you brought it up by making claims of your power and skill. Footage, or stopping the claims will end the current direction of discussion. [Zyu's suggestion of ranking/ rating/ league, any info that would help us have a more accurate idea of your level would be useful. But nothing would replace footage.]

 

[Konrad Bak]

deleted

 

[Der_Echte]

I do no think I have interacted with Zyu to any extent, but he strikes me having been there and/or done that. If you look at this posts over time, dude is consistent with someone who has seen and experienced the things he talks about.

When people come on the forum and talk smack about things they really do not understand deeply or even basically, there are many obvious signs.

Usually, Next Level or Carl are the first ones to see and comment. Myself, as only a Grand Consultant, do not have to do anything - the forum memebrs are already addressing it in their own way. They also peformed consulting services for free.

I can tell anyone on the forum that when I started, I really did not have any TT expericence whatsoever... yet I enthusiastically discussed about anything possible. Hopefully, I kept it within context enough.

Some of the older vet forum memebrs from this and other forums my remember my early posts (and have a good laugh at them with a full rack of Andechs Bier of their preference)

We ALL do this to an extent... and we as forum members expect this and are forgiving/undrstanding... but when someone comes on the forum and keeps digging their hole, reinforcing that position, and STOMPING all over what hangs down from their man-zone both straight and round... it becomes quite noticeable and someone, somebody, some Goon Squad is gunna get involved for the merryment of society.