A rubber between MX-P and EL-S

[Konrad Bak]

deleted

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. And it is easy to rectify. If you want to talk smack, you just post the video evidence to back it up. Otherwise stay on topic and don't talk smack.

I am doing my best to stay away from the Amanda Nuñes comments because those are also asking for it. But I will leave them be. I will simply say that a big man who is not well trained in the art of fighting could easily be on the receiving end of a behind whooping from a little girl if that little girl is well trained in the sweet science.

 

[zyu81]

I do no think I have interacted with Zyu to any extent, but he strikes me having been there and/or done that. If you look at this posts over time, dude is consistent with someone who has seen and experienced the things he talks about.

When people come on the forum and talk smack about things they really do not understand deeply or even basically, there are many obvious signs.

Usually, Next Level or Carl are the first ones to see and comment. Myself, as only a Grand Consultant, do not have to do anything - the forum memebrs are already addressing it in their own way. They also peformed consulting services for free.

I can tell anyone on the forum that when I started, I really did not have any TT expericence whatsoever... yet I enthusiastically discussed about anything possible. Hopefully, I kept it within context enough.

Some of the older vet forum memebrs from this and other forums my remember my early posts (and have a good laugh at them with a full rack of Andechs Bier of their preference)

We ALL do this to an extent... and we as forum members expect this and are forgiving/undrstanding... but when someone comes on the forum and keeps digging their hole, reinforcing that position, and STOMPING all over what hangs down from their man-zone both straight and round... it becomes quite noticeable and someone, somebody, some Goon Squad is gunna get involved for the merryment of society.

Kloster Andechs...man of good taste.

The reason I have gone down this rabbit hole of a discussion is: I strongly believe that equipment recommendations that are made for someone who has given no indication of their playing style and level (as OP has done), is a largely futile effort. It is almost completely pointless, and I think the forum would benefit from a rule that equipment recommendation posts must be accompanied with some sort of guiding information, but perhaps that's too far away.

Basically, there are way too many variables for each individual person, how they play each individual shot, etc. that will determine what they think of equipment. When OP talks about the spin and stability he likes in MXP and ELS, we don't really know how he hits or plays that gives him that impression. Me personally, and for a 2600 US rated friend of mine, we would describe MX-P as quite unstable. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here.

Then, when you introduce another bunch of variables of the respondents and what THEY feel/think/experienced, you now compound the variability.

Now, add in the harsh-but-true fact that a lot of intermediate players don't actually know how they play, and what they think versus reality can be very different...and you are compounding even more variability. You see where this is going - I could essentially pick any random reasonable rubber and throw it in as a suggestion, and that would be as legitimate of a suggestion as what anyone else is saying. You really just have to try a product, for a sufficient amount of time, to see whether or not you like it. Surely this may not be economically practical for everyone but it is the reality of the situation.

I'm sure this has all been said before but I'll say it again since this thread has gotten a lot of traffic, and some posters think the thread has been "derailed" even though the side discussion is very relevant to the stuff at hand once you piece it all together.

Thanks.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Kloster Andechs...man of good taste.

The reason I have gone down this rabbit hole of a discussion is: I strongly believe that equipment recommendations that are made for someone who has given no indication of their playing style and level (as OP has done), is a largely futile effort. It is almost completely pointless, and I think the forum would benefit from a rule that equipment recommendation posts must be accompanied with some sort of guiding information, but perhaps that's too far away.

Basically, there are way too many variables for each individual person, how they play each individual shot, etc. that will determine what they think of equipment. When OP talks about the spin and stability he likes in MXP and ELS, we don't really know how he hits or plays that gives him that impression. Me personally, and for a 2600 US rated friend of mine, we would describe MX-P as quite unstable. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here.

Then, when you introduce another bunch of variables of the respondents and what THEY feel/think/experienced, you now compound the variability.

Now, add in the harsh-but-true fact that a lot of intermediate players don't actually know how they play, and what they think versus reality can be very different...and you are compounding even more variability. You see where this is going - I could essentially pick any random reasonable rubber and throw it in as a suggestion, and that would be as legitimate of a suggestion as what anyone else is saying. You really just have to try a product, for a sufficient amount of time, to see whether or not you like it. Surely this may not be economically practical for everyone but it is the reality of the situation.

I'm sure this has all been said before but I'll say it again since this thread has gotten a lot of traffic, and some posters think the thread has been "derailed" even though the side discussion is very relevant to the stuff at hand once you piece it all together.

Thanks.

There is really a lot in here. And it is very well articulated. There is a depth to what is presented that could easily be missed.

So, read it. Read it again. Maybe read it a third time. Then hit the LIKE button.


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland

 

[Der_Echte]

...Kloster Andechs...man of good taste....

Now if in the SOUTH (Bayern) or anywhere in good ole Deutschland we would declare a certain Bier to be the BEST... that would be very silly and there are so many that could contend or claim....

What OUGHT to be indisputable is that Bier is in SPITZE KLASS, meaning it is in the exclusive Top Class, which only a few make it. Let's call it Top 5 or Top 10.

 

[Der_Echte]

There is really a lot in here. And it is very well articulated. There is a depth to what is presented that could easily be missed.

So, read it. Read it again. Maybe read it a third time. Then hit the LIKE button.

Carl,

You got the analysis and conclusion "hit the head on the nail" as Americans would say regarding that, but your recommendation of "hit" the LIKE button... that is WEAK.

POUND dat LIKE Button is more like it.

*** Der_Echte making a quick bee-line for the missile defense bunker entrance ***

 

[Der_Echte]

...and for a 2600 US rated friend of mine, we would describe MX-P as quite unstable. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here....

hehe zyu, that is EXACTLY the feedback nexy Korea President got from the Korean pro players he supported with MX-K (Nexy Korea is Tibhar distributor) so he really wanted a rubber that would be "Stabil" at higher impacts. He had already engeineered the Karis topsheet with a Japanese sponge (made at a factory that is the equivilant of "ESN in Japan"...

... but Pr Moon really wanted a true ESN sponge to go with Karis... it took a lot of convincing and research and some Euros expended... but they finally got MX-K 47.5 and 52 produced...

.. and for the HARD HITTING natured Koreans, this rubber delivered.

unfortunately, there are only a few stroke situations where I can realize the potential of this rubber (in 47.5), so I need some more development on my impact timing and impact to make better use of a rubber like MX-K in the other stroke situations I use.

So for now, softie FX-S it is... and it isn't a terible choice for now either... I perform better with it right now... and maybe later, I will have developed enough to be good enough to make good use of a medium to med-hard sponeged dynamic rubber on FH.

 

[Der_Echte]

...I'm sure this has all been said before but I'll say it again since this thread has gotten a lot of traffic, and some posters think the thread has been "derailed" even though the side discussion is very relevant to the stuff at hand once you piece it all together....

No piecing together required, but nice to do so. When we in the forums start discussion WHY we do something or HOW it is done or the DYNAMICS involved and the kind of TECHNIQUES required, etc... then were are opening a really good kind of can of worms, to use an American expression.

Thos kind of thngs really DESERVE more attention and discussion over fanboy equiment talk... I am anong the most severe sarcastic commenters on this syndrome... perhaps to the extend I turn off people.

The kind of things zyu is emphasizing are absolut essential to better understanding of the sport and lead to better performance if used enough and often.

Even if I am causing trouble talking this smack and that, I do my best to get people who CAN explain it and discuss it (because they KNOW and maybe have DONE) then we get good stuff to read and digest, which is kinda like having a well done Thüringer Bratwurst with Kemf on a great bun in one hand, and a 1 Litre Stein of cold azz Oberdorfer bier (name your variety) in the other in July or August at the local Fest with friends.

 

[P1ngP0ng3r]

So, before I post a question about equipment, you expect me to write aan essay on my technique, my experience with previous equipment, showing tons of footage of me playing, etc etc ?

I have the biggest respect for you guys, as active members like you keep a forum alive and providing advice to other members.

But geez,...you all done padding each other on the shoulder, telling others how experienced/intelligent you all are?

This is a forum, where everyone can participate and contribute: pro players, intermediate, beginners, etc.
When you ask advice, you get response from all sorts of members. You take into account that some non-experienced members, react as well. Reading the posts, you take this into account and you value posts from experienced members (vets as you describe it) and reviewers (like yogi_bear).

And yes, some members make bold claims about themselves, but there is no need throwing yourself on that person and continue hijacking this thread with all your posts, proving yourself right.

I'm 46 years old, playing TT for 33 years. Spending way(!!) too much money on equipment. So without posting that much on this forum, I consider myself experienced. And if I can help another member with advice, I will try to give him/her advice based on my personal experience with that equipment. No need to over-complicate things.

By posting this, I probably put a target on my back

 

[Konrad Bak]

deleted

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So, before I post a question about equipment, you expect me to write aan essay on my technique, my experience with previous equipment, showing tons of footage of me playing, etc etc ?

I have the biggest respect for you guys, as active members like you keep a forum alive and providing advice to other members.

But geez,...you all done padding each other on the shoulder, telling others how experienced/intelligent you all are?

This is a forum, where everyone can participate and contribute: pro players, intermediate, beginners, etc.
When you ask advice, you get response from all sorts of members. You take into account that some non-experienced members, react as well. Reading the posts, you take this into account and you value posts from experienced members (vets as you describe it) and reviewers (like yogi_bear).

And yes, some members make bold claims about themselves, but there is no need throwing yourself on that person and continue hijacking this thread with all your posts, proving yourself right.

I'm 46 years old, playing TT for 33 years. Spending way(!!) too much money on equipment. So without posting that much on this forum, I consider myself experienced. And if I can help another member with advice, I will try to give him/her advice based on my personal experience with that equipment. No need to over-complicate things.

By posting this, I probably put a target on my back

I do think you are making some good points. So I just want it noted that nobody seems to be telling the OP of the thread who was asking for rubber advice that he must quantify anything about anything.

Also: This question in post #23 of this thread:

Why is it said that Chinese rubber like H3 has more top end speed than ESN while being slower on most hits? How is it that ESN rubber can have some max threshold while a H3 cannot?

If you can match the potential spin output for either on a hard sponge, then the H3 should not have a speed advantage. I've tested hitting my best hardest hitting forehand Chinese stroke with both H3 and Tenergy05. Tenergy05 was faster and is still a bit easier to be consistent, since you can be lazier with it.

If compared to Omega 7 Hyper, then forget about it, but that one yeah you do have to take some steam off sometimes for consistency.

Maybe that old adage was true for soft and medium hardness rubbers though.

Does it have anything to do with the actual content of the thread? Or would that constitute what you are calling a hijacking? Could H3 in any way be construed as anywhere in between or in the ballpark of MXP and ELS? Did anyone, before this post....anyone....mention H3 once?

And his response to the answer he was given that he may need to hit harder to unlock the top end performance of H3, that he can hit harder than the girl who was used as an example, is there an appropriate answer to that? Might it be that sometimes people are not fully aware of their level? And impact depth and quality actually might mean something?

So, I agree with you that, if people were calling out the OP for asking his question without providing adequate information, that you would be making an excellent point.

But this is not the OP. To me it seems his question was off topic to begin with. And his responses to information that may have been on the mark, and could have been seen as helpful, seem to indicate he may not understand things about his own skill levels and how that might not give him access to some of the qualities possessed by the rubber he is asking about?

So, yeah, this kind of thing can be ignored. Or it can be called out. But I do think the actual answer to what Michael Kitt was asking has something to do with the idea that without a certain impact depth and quality, he may not have access to feeling some of what the rubber he is asking about can do. That he chose to argue with that notion, in the particular way he did, can't be separated from what followed. And of course, people can also choose to read or not to. Nevertheless, I do think the OP's question was answered well enough in post #2 by Airoc.

 

[zyu81]

So, before I post a question about equipment, you expect me to write aan essay on my technique, my experience with previous equipment, showing tons of footage of me playing, etc etc ?

This is a forum, where everyone can participate and contribute: pro players, intermediate, beginners, etc.
When you ask advice, you get response from all sorts of members. You take into account that some non-experienced members, react as well. Reading the posts, you take this into account and you value posts from experienced members (vets as you describe it) and reviewers (like yogi_bear).

No need for an essay or "tons" of footage, but at least an attempt to objectively measure someone's game and level would be ideal. For example, when I (often) see someone describe their game as, say, "based on backhand chiquita openings and spinny third balls and heavy loops from both sides" I know that person is: 1) extremely advanced, and I wonder why they might be asking for equipment recommendations, or 2) they have no clue how they actually play. More often than not, it's 2.

Absolutely, everyone should give input regardless of who they are, but how does it help a prospective buyer if he has no way of knowing whether the recommender can relate to his game and needs at all? Your ideals are good and well until someone buys a $100 sheet of H3, thinking it's a rubber between MX-P and EL-S, because someone who thinks he "loops harder than Hayata" and "wins almost every topspin to topspin rally he plays by countering with his hardest looped ball when the opponent loops their hardest by starting his shot before the opponent has even finished their stroke" told you so.

 

[zyu81]

Yup and we come to funny situation when guy wants something between two rubbers.
Someone said to him perfect answear but guys still talk about mark v sriver dhs pf 04 or fxs.
Disgusting

Rhyzer 48? Felt nothing like the Evolution MX-P to me.

 

[P1ngP0ng3r]

No need for an essay or "tons" of footage, but at least an attempt to objectively measure someone's game and level would be ideal. For example, when I (often) see someone describe their game as, say, "based on backhand chiquita openings and spinny third balls and heavy loops from both sides" I know that person is: 1) extremely advanced, and I wonder why they might be asking for equipment recommendations, or 2) they have no clue how they actually play. More often than not, it's 2.

Absolutely, everyone should give input regardless of who they are, but how does it help a prospective buyer if he has no way of knowing whether the recommender can relate to his game and needs at all? Your ideals are good and well until someone buys a $100 sheet of H3, thinking it's a rubber between MX-P and EL-S, because someone who thinks he "loops harder than Hayata" and "wins almost every topspin to topspin rally he plays by countering with his hardest looped ball when the opponent loops their hardest by starting his shot before the opponent has even finished their stroke" told you so.

Completely true and that's the downside asking advice on a forum/platform like this.
Think we can all agree that your primairy source for equipment advice should be a coach from your own club. A person who actually knows your level of playing, knows your strenghts and weaknesses, your style etc.
Unfortunately, not everyone has a coach available and for those, a forum is their second best.

Think we can also agree on the following: the more info (level, style, current/pas equipment, etc) you provide, the more trustworthy feedback you get.
But still, you always should be weary about responses without decent substantiation(?).
As Carl already mentioned, post #2 by Airoc is a decent reply.
Suggesting Rhyzer 48 without any additional information, is (clearly) not

 

[zyu81]

Completely true and that's the downside asking advice on a forum/platform like this.
Think we can all agree that your primairy source for equipment advice should be a coach from your own club. A person who actually knows your level of playing, knows your strenghts and weaknesses, your style etc.
Unfortunately, not everyone has a coach available and for those, a forum is their second best.

Think we can also agree on the following: the more info (level, style, current/pas equipment, etc) you provide, the more trustworthy feedback you get.
But still, you always should be weary about responses without decent substantiation(?).
As Carl already mentioned, post #2 by Airoc is a decent reply.
Suggesting Rhyzer 48 without any additional information, is (clearly) not

I am not an EJ master so I don't really know how to describe it. But Rhyzer 48 felt nothing on ball contact like MX-P did. I also felt on heavier shots that the spin and speed capabilities of Rhyzer 48 were far greater than MX-P. So maybe Konrad can expand on this.

Also, Rhyzer rubbers have the opposite of good durability.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I am not an EJ master so I don't really know how to describe it. But Rhyzer 48 felt nothing on ball contact like MX-P did. I also felt on heavier shots that the spin and speed capabilities of Rhyzer 48 were far greater than MX-P. So maybe Konrad can expand on this.

Also, Rhyzer rubbers have the opposite of good durability.

Yeah. I would agree with all of this. But there is really no such thing as a rubber between MXP and ELS just like all the inquiries looking for something just like T05 but from a different company so: less expensive--were honestly not answerable.

R48 is softer than MXP and harder than ELS. But its playing characteristics are way way different than either.

I have R48 on my blade. I can say it is a strange rubber. For me, on certain shots with deep impact, the rubber's throw is odd and the ball can sometimes shoot out at unpredictable angles sometimes higher than expected. When using touch to loop heavy backspin and trying to make the shot slow and spinny, it can release the ball so it comes out very low. So, for me, with my technique, it can perform a bit inconstantly or, some might say, it is not very linear.

I have assumed some of this was because the sponge is designed to have high catapult on deeper impact and respond with little to no catapult on touch shots for short game.

I also can attest to the fact that, after the rubber was on my blade for about 3 weeks, I noticed a marked decrease in performance. It still works fine for me. But, it seems that it plays differently after the boost effect wears off. For me this was clearly noticeable.

That being said, if the OP is looking for something in between MXP and ELS, I am not really sure there is a better answer because I am not sure what he is looking for exists. And, at least in some respects (low catapult on soft touch, high catapult on big impact; softer than MXP, harder than ELS) it is very much in between those two rubbers in certain ways.

In other ways, it is not and there really is just no good answer.

By the way, despite all I said about R48, I do think it is a pretty good rubber. There are just some things to get used to with it.

 

[P1ngP0ng3r]

Carl, what's the thickness of your R48?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl, what's the thickness of your R48?

Max. Not sure what thinner would feel like.

And it does produce crazy amounts of spin on certain shots.

 

[Konrad Bak]

deleted

 

[zyu81]

I wrote Rasanter 47 and 48 and Rhyzer 48 and I know Rhyzer 48 better than Rasanters so I put pressure when everybody talking about "WHO HITS HARDER MA LONG OR JOHN DOE" SHOW VIDEO EOEOE
He can buy Extra V15, new Extra V11, Nanoflex FT 48, Omega V Tour, Hexer Powergrip, Hexer Grip, Rakza 9, Rasanter V47, Goldarc 8, Rozena, Gewo Nexxus 48, Tibhar Quantum, Bluestorm Z2
and and we can only write opinion because I can't judge what will be the best for someone, but I can judge what he can like the most in comparison to your offers.
For me Rhyzer 48 is perfect rubber, has better durability than R47 and maybe it plays different to MXP (higher throw, more dwell time, less spin in shorter impact, less gears in harder impact, more spin in harder shots, better stability 2.0 sponge, more bouncy than MXP, softer than MXP etc )

Um. Ok. It is also by no means durable, and not what most people would call "manageable" speed. It is very fast and bouncy.

Those are two of the four criteria that OP asked for, that it rather objectively fails in.

Also, I frequently see people describe equipment as "direct". I have no clue what that means. If anyone could explain, much appreciated.