Advantages of older generation rubbers (R7,G1,Vega Pro,..) ?

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Hi together,
I am really interested in your general opinion about the following topic:

What advantages and disadvantages do rubbers from the generation 2009-2011 have?
In general, I mean rubbers like Rakza 7, Donic Baracuda, Vega Pro, Nittaku G1.
Compared with modern rubbers like Vega X, Hexer Powergrip, Bluestorm Z2, Victas Ventus Extra, and so on.

Most of the new rubbers have some kind of „new“ technologies. Especially developed for dealing better with the new balls. But at what costs?

Besides advantages and disadvantages, which generation of rubbers do you prefer, and why?

Love to hear your thoughts on that.
Cheers
 
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To me, the modern rubbers may have slightly more catapult, but the reality is that they are just very minor improvements. In an actual gameplay situation, you if you are actually striking the ball, the "catapult" doesn't have too much effect.

I would be perfectly happy playing with Rakza 7 or G1 or Vega Pro.
 
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Hi together,
I am really interested in your general opinion about the following topic:

What advantages and disadvantages do rubbers from the generation 2009-2011 have?
In general, I mean rubbers like Rakza 7, Donic Baracuda, Vega Pro, Nittaku G1.
Compared with modern rubbers like Vega X, Hexer Powergrip, Bluestorm Z2, Victas Ventus Extra, and so on.

Most of the new rubbers have some kind of „new“ technologies. Especially developed for dealing better with the new balls. But at what costs?

Besides advantages and disadvantages, which generation of rubbers do you prefer, and why?

Love to hear your thoughts on that.
Cheers
I have played with, out of that list, Rakza 7, Vega Pro, Nittaku G1, Vega X, and Victas Ventus Extra. Honestly very little difference. Choose the older generations and their more affordable prices. I have been tempted to try Bluestar from Donic since JO Waldner and Persson have been advertising shamelessly on Dan's channel. But I will stick with my hurricane on my forehand side. I am happy. I am not tempted at all.
 
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I feel that newer rubbers have more dynamics and far more grip. They feel more reactive and more dwelly.

I currently have a goldarc 8 and Bluestorm Z3, goldarc feels grippy when you brush fast and hard, but z3 gripped easier when it was new,(now it's worn). Same feeling with dignics and tenergy, tenergy felt soft and grippy with fast hard movement but can slip if you don't have a stable acceleration, dignics doesn't have that, it feels almost tacky, so grippy that you can just brush with the slowest stroke and still feel the ball dig into the topsheet.

I think that's because dignics has softer top sheet and less surface tension, which contributes into making the topsheet softer.

On the other hand, bluestorm was a first try at new rubbers for donic, thin topsheet and softer sponge. They have a TON of surface tension which makes them go rock hard and slip within 4-5 months and become unusable. These early new gen rubbers become very hard and lose grip very fast, they're not worth the money.

Compared to the bluestorm, even t05 has more spin and better feel from day 1 to 1 year later, bluestorm can't touch that.
 
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The ones from 2009-2010 are the closest to Tenergy. The ones from 2011-2013 start to deviate and serve as the prototype for the later ones. The ones from 2014-now last shorter and weigh more, that is, the "perceived" performance gain actually comes from the higher hardness.

In other words, the grippy ones from 2014-now are a waste of time and money. Either get the hybrid ones or get Dignics/Tenergy.

To put it bluntly, it's either Chinese or Japanese rubber. European rubber, given its price and longevity, has reached a dead end. We have come full circle, after roughly 15 years.
 
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Dwelly? You know nothing about dwell. USDC will shit on me but this is the truth. No one here as been able to say what it takes to increase dwell.

Define grippy. There is a coefficient of friction.


The coefficient of friction is what you are after. It is the amount of tangential force that you can apply as a function of the normal force. Tacky rubbers rule here but they have their own problems.


Show us a formula that involves tension! The whole tensor, tension thing is a fraud. No one has been able to show a formula that involve tension over 15 years now.

My advice is to just play an concentrate on what you can do with what you have. People are adaptable. Equipment is not.
Get some manners and let people share their experience. Bluestorm sucks and has no dwell, dignics feel almost tacky with all that grip and feel with no downside other than its price. I don't care why rubbers feel and play as they do, I only know what I've seen through trying them all. So cut acting like you know how I felt using the bluefail and dignics, meaning GOD, and go act like an idiot at twitter, where you belong.

Let us talk.
 
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Dwelly? You know nothing about dwell. USDC will shit on me but this is the truth. No one here as been able to say what it takes to increase dwell.

Define grippy. There is a coefficient of friction.


The coefficient of friction is what you are after. It is the amount of tangential force that you can apply as a function of the normal force. Tacky rubbers rule here but they have their own problems.


Show us a formula that involves tension! The whole tensor, tension thing is a fraud. No one has been able to show a formula that involve tension over 15 years now.

My advice is to just play an concentrate on what you can do with what you have. People are adaptable. Equipment is not.
Also, grip and tension is a physics thing. Higher surface tension will give a harder feeling, that's inevitable. Don't lecture me, I'm not your friend.
 
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re you saying when the ball hits Bluestorm that it doesn't spend anytime sinking into the rubber and then being pushed back out?
Never said that, Z3 just kicks the ball out like a damn cannon, hence the lack of spin and sensitivity. And low throw angle.

How you feel doesn't matter. By the time you feel anything the ball is long gone. This has been established years ago.
Feel is the only reason we can understand dwell and use the tacky rubbers with their advantages.

Do harder rubbers have more dwell time?
If so, then how can that be when the ball won't sink as far into the harder rubber relative to a soft rubber.
Dwell is subjective to the sponge hardness, and a hard rubber can have more dwell than a soft one. A good example is the hurricane 3 and tenergy 05. Or dignics 05 and vega europe.

If not then according then why is dwell time important. Even zeio hedged his comments with "perceived".
Again, it's about feel. That's what this sport relies on.

Dwell time gets short has the impact speed increases. It is short. About 1-1.5 ms at slow speeds and then it gets shorter from there. Can you tell the difference between 1 ms and 1.1 ms?
It is possible for dwell time to be infinite. How is this achieved? What are the necessary conditions?
We want to know.
Of course we can tell the difference, that tiny difference is the reason so many different sponge hardness of the same rubbers exist. The rasanter series is a good example, a billion sponge hardesses. And of course chinese rubbers.

Another point about dwell and tiny time differences, why do you think games chase low latency, we as humans can feel and understand these times, no matter how small it is. Try playing with a wireless mouse and then with a high quality wired, if you know what you're looking for, you'll find the difference and it will annoy you.

Is there tension? What holds the rubber in tension? Something must hold the rubber in tension. If that something is removed, then it should shrink. You say it is a physics thing. The must be a physics formula for it. Where is it? I have been asking this question for years. Hint, there isn't any. I believe there is a little tension when the ball hits the rubber and stretches it a little but not before. This is like a trampoline where tension increases as you depress the trampoline, but the trampoline is already in tension because of the frame and springs. TT paddles don't have the frame and springs.
There is tension in rubbers, that's why they shrink, Butterfly literally markets their rubbers as tensioned topsheets with high power sponge. Especially when they market them by stretching them by 300%.

Here's the link from Butterfly's official website for support of my argument.


This is a short part of Butterfly's statements in the article.

"High Tension" creates tension on a rubber’s surface and sponge to use the energy of the incoming ball and redirect it back into the shot. The technology is complex, but the principle is easy to understand: Like on a trampoline, the higher tension on the surface creates a higher bounce!Rubbers using "High Tension" have a much higher surface tension compared to classic rubbers, without negatively affecting material quality. Compared to the first "High Tension" rubbers, the tension in TENERGY has even been increased by 300%.

If you continue this argument I'll continue pulling articles from resources that cannot be invalidated. Happy now? Because I'm not.

Have a good day.
 
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@Lowday20298 ,
Friend, you have been dissing Z3 and I on the other hand am loving it and I am considering buying another piece to put on my FH in lieu of Donic Baracuda. Currently I am using the Z3 on my BH and I absolutely love the extreme trampoline effect. I am thinking of using both side, that is, FH & BH Z3 now. I have tried Z3 on my FH and it feels nice. The trampoline effect helps me to drive with little effort. So, friend, , what do you think? Is my idea good or should I just stick with Baracuda? To me, the Baracuda is a looping rubber. If you brush it properly, this is where Baracuda shine. Love to hear more from an opposing view. Thanks.
 
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I suppose the most advantage of older ESN rubbers have is they are not boosted. Or at least G-1 and Barracuda and Vega Pro are not. I assume it's the same with the others too. So their playing characteristics don't drastically change after one or two months. They don't particularly shrink either.
G-1 and Barracuda topsheets are really good and last for long.

While I think G-1 is awesome maybe the best compromise is V>15 extra since that is not boosted and has great durability and is more like the newer rubbers at the same time. Just make sure you don't get the blue colored one.
 
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@Lowday20298 ,
Friend, you have been dissing Z3 and I on the other hand am loving it and I am considering buying another piece to put on my FH in lieu of Donic Baracuda. Currently I am using the Z3 on my BH and I absolutely love the extreme trampoline effect. I am thinking of using both side, that is, FH & BH Z3 now. I have tried Z3 on my FH and it feels nice. The trampoline effect helps me to drive with little effort. So, friend, , what do you think? Is my idea good or should I just stick with Baracuda? To me, the Baracuda is a looping rubber. If you brush it properly, this is where Baracuda shine. Love to hear more from an opposing view. Thanks.
I love the baracuda, it's extremely spinny. The z3 is a blocking and counter rubber. It's really good but it doesn't last long. Mine died after 4-5 months. I play everyday and got destroyed really quick. I think that for the forehand a better choice would be the z1. I really like the bluestorm pro am, it has a higher throw angle and much more spin.
 
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I love the baracuda, it's extremely spinny. The z3 is a blocking and counter rubber. It's really good but it doesn't last long. Mine died after 4-5 months. I play everyday and got destroyed really quick. I think that for the forehand a better choice would be the z1. I really like the bluestorm pro am, it has a higher throw angle and much more spin.
I had used Z1 before which is awesome when stroking or doing multi-ball. But when it comes to actual game-play, my ball fly here and there. Baracuda is ok for me, maybe I should just stick with Baracuda for FH and Z3 for BH, my current set up and be contented.
 
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I had used Z1 before which is awesome when stroking or doing multi-ball. But when it comes to actual game-play, my ball fly here and there. Baracuda is ok for me, maybe I should just stick with Baracuda for FH and Z3 for BH, my current set up and be contented.
Z3 has very low throw, that's why I don't like it on backhand. You can just turn your racket around and see if you like it. Bluegrip C2 is really good if you want something modern
 
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