He did not toss the ball 16cm high, instead, he tossed it with wrist backward a lot. It is hard to return this kind of ball if his free hand is in the way. Yes, table tennis can be a disgusting sport when so many good fellows turn "evils" in serving.
Anders Lind discussing illegal serves
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It's definitely way more than 30. Whether it is 60 or not is debatable. And it is incredibly illegal, the problem is that it is accepted widely. In fact most shovel and reverse pendulum serves are illegal.
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If you go frame by frame starting from the point the ball leaves the hand, it looks within 30 degrees of vertical. Mentally breaking the 90 degree square using table as bottom base into thirds from where he tossed to the ball's apex it appears to fall within the first third starting from vertical. Although I will say the camera angle is not the best to determine verticality.
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It does not just hurts yourself. Our "inter-club provincial tournaments" are always a team competition . Should I decide to throw a game my team will suffer. So I decided to not play at all.
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I was able to match up the two screen shots I took by matching the different colour panels on the wall:
The moving (blurred) hand is about to release the ball. His hand moves in a slight arc, but I think it's fair to say that this toss is probably closer to 30 degrees than 60 (its nowhere near 45, let alone 60).
But his example demonstrates a few points...
1) It's not explicitly stated where in the toss the 30 degree rule applies. The only interpretation that makes sense to me is that it refers to the angle as the ball leaves you hand (at the peak of the toss it is moving purely laterally).
2) There are factors that can make the determination of the angle quite difficult. Human nature is that if it moves a larger distance laterally, you're more likely to conclude that the 30 degree rule has been broken... but for a given angle, the higher you toss the ball, the further the ball is going to travel laterally.
Note also that at ~1min 30 into the video Anders states that "Let's say you throw the ball one metre up, it can maximum go 30cm to the side". Maybe someone would like to do the math, but that doesn't seem right to me. Also, does he mean the horizontal distance from leaving the hand to returning to the same height? From where his hand is at rest to where he hits the ball?
As a player,
1) Unless a player is throwing the ball into their bat, I don't really care about what angle the ball is tossed at.
2) I do care if the ball is being obscured in the toss
3) I care if the ball is not being tossed high enough only if the server is gaining advantage from this. If I'm umpiring I usually let it go if no advantage is apparent. If the player is intentionally trying to 'pull a swifty' it is usually pretty obvious and I would call it.
Cheers, LLS
Ball must always be between the player (incl. limbs) and the table during service, with serving hand being removed immediately after toss. This is the simplest way I can think of to crack down on it.
The reason most people do those standard forehand serves is because they are copying older players (or getting coached by them) who developed them deliberately for the purpose of hiding the serve. It's understandable that older players may want to adapt their serves for the new rules, to avoid starting from scratch. But it's been a long time now since the rule change.
Some players have trouble not doing sidespin unless the ball is contacted in line with their shoulder, which could also be a factor. But a different serve form would be beneficial to most players as there wouldn't be so much movement / recovery from the serve to ready position.
The reason most people do those standard forehand serves is because they are copying older players (or getting coached by them) who developed them deliberately for the purpose of hiding the serve. It's understandable that older players may want to adapt their serves for the new rules, to avoid starting from scratch. But it's been a long time now since the rule change.
Some players have trouble not doing sidespin unless the ball is contacted in line with their shoulder, which could also be a factor. But a different serve form would be beneficial to most players as there wouldn't be so much movement / recovery from the serve to ready position.
Everyone can serve legally if he/she wants. Someone just choose not to.
The problem is enforcement.
A few years ago there was a 10k tournament, in the final both players were hiding their serves. It was just serve / kill every point. The umpire called them out on it, they complained but had to start serving legally. Then there were rallies. Much better for the audience.
However, after the match, the players complained about the umpire. The umpire was right to call them on it, but I bet he will think twice about doing it again. Unfortunately bullying and intimidation goes a long way. Remember marcos freitas many years ago going off on the umpire for calling his serves illegal? Disgraceful behaviour even if the umpire was incorrect.
So the loser of the match above runs one of my local clubs. One time a friend of mine was accidentally hiding his serves, so I warned him about it. He went and asked the owner of the club, who observed the serves. He thought they were legal. This friend of mine has actually won division 3, 2 then 1 comps in running years, and in my opinion mostly because of this hidden serve that was never fixed and never called out by umpires. It's a great serve even without them being hidden. So when I play him, I need to move a good 30cm - 50cm from a normal ready position just to see it properly, otherwise I struggle with the return and the score stays close just because of that.
A few years ago there was a 10k tournament, in the final both players were hiding their serves. It was just serve / kill every point. The umpire called them out on it, they complained but had to start serving legally. Then there were rallies. Much better for the audience.
However, after the match, the players complained about the umpire. The umpire was right to call them on it, but I bet he will think twice about doing it again. Unfortunately bullying and intimidation goes a long way. Remember marcos freitas many years ago going off on the umpire for calling his serves illegal? Disgraceful behaviour even if the umpire was incorrect.
So the loser of the match above runs one of my local clubs. One time a friend of mine was accidentally hiding his serves, so I warned him about it. He went and asked the owner of the club, who observed the serves. He thought they were legal. This friend of mine has actually won division 3, 2 then 1 comps in running years, and in my opinion mostly because of this hidden serve that was never fixed and never called out by umpires. It's a great serve even without them being hidden. So when I play him, I need to move a good 30cm - 50cm from a normal ready position just to see it properly, otherwise I struggle with the return and the score stays close just because of that.
It's not just the illegal serve, there is also the effect on every player they play. Say one junior has hard to read illegal serves. You have three choices:
1. Lose but say nothing
2. Complain to the referee, who will do nothing and you still lose
3. Learn to cheat yourself so you have a chance
Edit: I say junior because that is where all this starts.
1. Lose but say nothing
2. Complain to the referee, who will do nothing and you still lose
3. Learn to cheat yourself so you have a chance
Edit: I say junior because that is where all this starts.
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Once upon a time I played with a U15 Jr player and he too copied the hook serve using his body to hide the serve. I did make a complain to his coach stating I am not complaining because I lost, I am just telling in good faith to prevent him carrying this bad habit into his future career. I hope his coach took my "advise" in good faith.
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we need more trick shots like Adam's snakes, that disappeared totally even in amateur leagues since 40mm
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Fair Play first
THE OLD FARTS.
Curious fact to note. Table tennis is the world's only sport to welcome old farts as a field umpire. A salient comparison is the sport of shuttlecock that would not let the oldish ones over 60 taking umpiring sits inside playing court.
Curious fact to note. Table tennis is the world's only sport to welcome old farts as a field umpire. A salient comparison is the sport of shuttlecock that would not let the oldish ones over 60 taking umpiring sits inside playing court.
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100% !!! my toss is varies between 8 cm and 16cm, and its very irritating to be called at my age even though the toss is vertical and ball visible
umpire must be able to see a space between free hand and ball,
(not obscured by fingers)
Laser:
Should be enough and enforcable.
hopefully!
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I maintain, for me rule 2. 6.4 remains the culprit with many current top players you see much less in lower series. The cause of these illegal services is allowing you to line up next to the table. Ban this and this illegal service already becomes much harder to make. You can see this clearly when these players make this service from aside the table or players who handle this service from behind the table. This could already be a regulation that could easily be included in the TT rules.
(from an other topic) https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...o-call-hidden-serves.33715/page-2#post-455152
The other fact of course that umpires do not have the balls to rightfully take sanctions on (top)players is another major flaw in umpire training and execution.
All other laws are difficult to no change if there is not going to be eagle camera's. Right against right-handed players, left against left-handed or right against left-handed players, the referees are going to find it increasingly difficult to judge without the help of cameras that will then have to be set up in the right angle. To me, this seems like an impossible task.
(from an other topic) https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...o-call-hidden-serves.33715/page-2#post-455152
The other fact of course that umpires do not have the balls to rightfully take sanctions on (top)players is another major flaw in umpire training and execution.
All other laws are difficult to no change if there is not going to be eagle camera's. Right against right-handed players, left against left-handed or right against left-handed players, the referees are going to find it increasingly difficult to judge without the help of cameras that will then have to be set up in the right angle. To me, this seems like an impossible task.
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For me as a beginner i practice unlegal service. Its one player who always hide his serve. So i do the same back against him.
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Sure serves are an issue, but isn't boosting illegal too? There are whole threads dedicated to on how to boost, but shouldn't that be enforced, too, rather than a whole industry and products available?
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