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You forget how many blades just sit in people's closets gathering dust.
Someone I know just told me he turned the blades in his closet into a Tesla.
Well, maybe it was a Specialized instead.
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True, these are blades I see frequently. I was mainly talking about the Butterfly blades.
The butterfly ZLC blades and Super ZLC blades range from 250 to 350+ Euro.
I play 2 competitions and some tournaments,watch high end games, so I meet many TT players and yet never encountered a player with a blade like that here.
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Maybe because those are expensive as heck :| I would put my wallet pain barrier at about 100-150 Euros for blade. Although I despise brand loyalty, I understand that everyone has their own preferences, and that's ofc fine. You can't talk about ZLC blades thinking only about Butterfly blades. There are more manufacturers using this material.
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Coincidentally I’m looking at Butterfly catalogue today. In world championships 2019 Budapest, 56.6% players used Butterfly, 28% used Bty ALC & 14.3% used ZLC or SZLC. So ZLC is not that far behind ALC among the top as we might think.
https://issuu.com/bowmar-sports-2020-catalog/docs/2020catalog3/16
(Look like I’m advertising for them by sharing the link while the only stuff I use from them is edge tape )
https://issuu.com/bowmar-sports-2020-catalog/docs/2020catalog3/16
(Look like I’m advertising for them by sharing the link while the only stuff I use from them is edge tape
)
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Wel,Konrad, for me it's not about ZLC ,SZLC is good or bad,or if it's better then ALC,All Wood etc.
Nor has it to do with Jealousy.
It's simply the fact that I never see it in my Table Tennis Circle.
So I can't even test, or ask how it plays or feels or ask about experiences.
It seems like no one here is not willing to take a 300 or 350 Euro risk for a blade that they might end up not liking.
And that is why I wondered why Butterly has so many of them.
Pro's playing with these blades doesn't really count because they usually get the blades for free.
So for me it was just a matter of wondering where that market is, because in Belgium these blades hardly exist.
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ZeroTT: here is some info that could help you.
Kevlar is used in making bullet proof vests. Zylon used to be used in making bullet proof vests as well, but they found that, over a few years, the Zylon material would undergo a slight chemical change that would cause it to no longer be bullet proof. This is not a quality you want in a material used to save the lives of police and soldiers.
Arylate is a material that is similar to Kevlar and Zylon. There was a point when they used to use Kevlar in a certain number of TT blades. I think some companies still make blades with Kevlar as the composite material.
If you have ever seen Kevlar, you will understand better the actual function of all these materials in a TT blade. They also used to use Kevlar in the first Roller Blade skates:
The material has some characteristics like plastic where it will hold a shape. But it is also softer and more pliable.
Kevlar is heavier than Arylate and Zylon. So those two started being more popular for use in blades. Arylate is related to polyester and is often used in fabrics that need to be waterproof or strong like, sometimes it is used in the parts of a sail that attach the sail to the ropes and mast. (Forgive me, I don't sail, so I am just using the words that come to me.)
I have also said earlier, Arylate is used in the iPhone chords I use because it makes the chords exponentially stronger than your average iPhone chord and it looks just like the type of material used on cheaper iPhone chords.
So, soft, pliable, but very strong with a rebound. So, these materials are used to make the carbon feel softer when they are weaved with Carbon.
I believe Arylate is softer than Zylon and lighter than Kevlar. To my understanding, this makes it ideal. Because Zylon is harder, I believe this makes it faster in blades. But there are always downsides that come with faster. There is always a give and take.
How does the deterioration of Zylon affect the play of a ZLC or ZLF blade 3-4 years down the road? I really don't know. I should pull my TB ZLF out and see how it feels these days. It has been sitting on a shelf for at least 4 years. Why did I switch from a ZLF to an All Wood blade: I like all wood and I missed the wood feeling of an all wood blade. I could easily play with an Innerfiber ALC or ZLC though. I just like all wood. And I have more than enough pace on my blade, in my opinion. I add the rest of the pace with technique.
So, the question to me is: would you rather a softer more controlled ALC blade, a slightly faster, not as soft ZLC blade, or would you want to just go for carbon without the Zylon if you want the extra pop. Like T5000 with a Cypress or Hinoki top ply gives a very good effect of speed, control, power and spin too. There is no wrong or right answer. You just are getting slightly different effects.
It is all personal choice. But in the ZLC blades that are outer fiber that I have tried, I have ALWAYS preferred ALC. It just feels notably better TO ME. Someone else would have a different experience. And I would never need anything faster than a Viscaria or a TB ALC. With the InnerFiber blades, I like the ZLC. It works well there. But I still don't need anything faster than my OSP Virtuoso Plus.
Why is Zylon and ZLC so much more expensive than ALC? I am not sure but, at least to some extent, it may have something to do with how much harder Zylon is to cut. The material....I am not sure it is much more expensive. But I believe cutting Zylon may be exponentially harder than cutting ALC or Carbon. I could be wrong about that. But I think that may be part of the price.
So, as far as I am concerned, I do not know if you are missing anything not having tried blades with zylon. I think the idea that the material breaks down and changes characteristics over time should be something to be leery of in the first place.
Why does Zylon stop being bullet proof in bullet proof vests and armor after a few years? How does that chemical change affect playing characteristics of a blade? These are good questions and I don't know the answers.
Kevlar is used in making bullet proof vests. Zylon used to be used in making bullet proof vests as well, but they found that, over a few years, the Zylon material would undergo a slight chemical change that would cause it to no longer be bullet proof. This is not a quality you want in a material used to save the lives of police and soldiers.
Arylate is a material that is similar to Kevlar and Zylon. There was a point when they used to use Kevlar in a certain number of TT blades. I think some companies still make blades with Kevlar as the composite material.
If you have ever seen Kevlar, you will understand better the actual function of all these materials in a TT blade. They also used to use Kevlar in the first Roller Blade skates:
The material has some characteristics like plastic where it will hold a shape. But it is also softer and more pliable.
Kevlar is heavier than Arylate and Zylon. So those two started being more popular for use in blades. Arylate is related to polyester and is often used in fabrics that need to be waterproof or strong like, sometimes it is used in the parts of a sail that attach the sail to the ropes and mast. (Forgive me, I don't sail, so I am just using the words that come to me.)
I have also said earlier, Arylate is used in the iPhone chords I use because it makes the chords exponentially stronger than your average iPhone chord and it looks just like the type of material used on cheaper iPhone chords.
So, soft, pliable, but very strong with a rebound. So, these materials are used to make the carbon feel softer when they are weaved with Carbon.
I believe Arylate is softer than Zylon and lighter than Kevlar. To my understanding, this makes it ideal. Because Zylon is harder, I believe this makes it faster in blades. But there are always downsides that come with faster. There is always a give and take.
How does the deterioration of Zylon affect the play of a ZLC or ZLF blade 3-4 years down the road? I really don't know. I should pull my TB ZLF out and see how it feels these days. It has been sitting on a shelf for at least 4 years. Why did I switch from a ZLF to an All Wood blade: I like all wood and I missed the wood feeling of an all wood blade. I could easily play with an Innerfiber ALC or ZLC though. I just like all wood. And I have more than enough pace on my blade, in my opinion. I add the rest of the pace with technique.
So, the question to me is: would you rather a softer more controlled ALC blade, a slightly faster, not as soft ZLC blade, or would you want to just go for carbon without the Zylon if you want the extra pop. Like T5000 with a Cypress or Hinoki top ply gives a very good effect of speed, control, power and spin too. There is no wrong or right answer. You just are getting slightly different effects.
It is all personal choice. But in the ZLC blades that are outer fiber that I have tried, I have ALWAYS preferred ALC. It just feels notably better TO ME. Someone else would have a different experience. And I would never need anything faster than a Viscaria or a TB ALC. With the InnerFiber blades, I like the ZLC. It works well there. But I still don't need anything faster than my OSP Virtuoso Plus.
Why is Zylon and ZLC so much more expensive than ALC? I am not sure but, at least to some extent, it may have something to do with how much harder Zylon is to cut. The material....I am not sure it is much more expensive. But I believe cutting Zylon may be exponentially harder than cutting ALC or Carbon. I could be wrong about that. But I think that may be part of the price.
So, as far as I am concerned, I do not know if you are missing anything not having tried blades with zylon. I think the idea that the material breaks down and changes characteristics over time should be something to be leery of in the first place.
Why does Zylon stop being bullet proof in bullet proof vests and armor after a few years? How does that chemical change affect playing characteristics of a blade? These are good questions and I don't know the answers.
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Great info there Carl, just a few notes:
It has been shown that Zylon degraded quickly when exposed to light, heat and moisture. The difference is that in bullet proof vests the zylon sheets are just stitched in multiple layers to make a ballistic panel. In a TT blade the fibers need a resin to form a layer, so they are encased in that resin, otherwise they would just be a dead weight. Because they are encased, I don't think that the degradation will be as severe. Even if it is, we are talking about stopping TT balls, which is hardly as demanding as stopping bullets. Of course I have yet to test a 10 year old zylon blade so this is just a guess.
Arylate (Vectran) is actually slightly heavier than Kevlar, 1.41 [Kg/dm3] vs 1.39 [Kg/dm3]. Zylon is the heaviest with 1.56 [Kg/dm3].
Zylon is much more expensive to make than Vectran or Kevlar, and that makes the material more expensive also. It's harder to cut yes, but I wouldn't say exponentially, maybe twice as hard at best. The rest is just brand talk to justify their prices.
It has been shown that Zylon degraded quickly when exposed to light, heat and moisture. The difference is that in bullet proof vests the zylon sheets are just stitched in multiple layers to make a ballistic panel. In a TT blade the fibers need a resin to form a layer, so they are encased in that resin, otherwise they would just be a dead weight. Because they are encased, I don't think that the degradation will be as severe. Even if it is, we are talking about stopping TT balls, which is hardly as demanding as stopping bullets. Of course I have yet to test a 10 year old zylon blade so this is just a guess.
Arylate (Vectran) is actually slightly heavier than Kevlar, 1.41 [Kg/dm3] vs 1.39 [Kg/dm3]. Zylon is the heaviest with 1.56 [Kg/dm3].
Zylon is much more expensive to make than Vectran or Kevlar, and that makes the material more expensive also. It's harder to cut yes, but I wouldn't say exponentially, maybe twice as hard at best. The rest is just brand talk to justify their prices.
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Cool. Good info. I am happy to be corrected on stuff I have not looked at in a good 4-5 years and am just pulling from memory.
And the underlying point is, when you know what the materials are and what they do, it could help you make a choice as to whether you would really prefer one of the other.
There are no right or wrong answers to personal preference. But if you understand what the individual substances to for the performance of a blade, it helps you know what you might like. Like, I believe that Arylate woven into Carbon allows a blade to be thinner and lighter while retaining speed, and it also gives some of the qualities of an all wood blade in that there is added control and spin, but with some of the speed a Carbon blade would provide. My interpretation about why I like the feeling of ALC in traditional composite compositions (outer fiber) is the mimicking of some of the qualities of a blade with "more feeling" and more "dwell time". Why I think I like ZLC better with InnerFiber type blades is, when there are more layers of wood before you get to the composite material, the wood provides some of what the Arylate is providing in the outer fiber blade and you need to composite layer to give a little more pop for it to have a purpose.
I could be wrong on all of that. Clearly there are others who will feel differently. But that is how my mind attempts to wrap around the subject of what I feel when I use those kinds of blades. And hopefully the info is useful to ZeroTT.
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Finding the personal dream setup is a hard work, sometimes it never happens, sometimes it comes by a chance.
What works for one, doesn't work for another. I don't like the usual idea to look what the top players are playing with. Just find what works best for you.
I play with already 4 years old Xiom Vega Tour Hinoki-ZLC blade /2 pieces in use and one unused still in the box, got it because its out of production/. I have other blades and I've tested many other blades, but no other blade gives me that pleasure, feeling and consistency.
About the price - the blade is the cheapest object in the TT equipment equation. For 4 years I gave a lot more money for rubbers, apparels, shoes, club taxes, training, etc. Rubbers alone for this period cost 3 times more than the price of all those 3 blades.
What works for one, doesn't work for another. I don't like the usual idea to look what the top players are playing with. Just find what works best for you.
I play with already 4 years old Xiom Vega Tour Hinoki-ZLC blade /2 pieces in use and one unused still in the box, got it because its out of production/. I have other blades and I've tested many other blades, but no other blade gives me that pleasure, feeling and consistency.
About the price - the blade is the cheapest object in the TT equipment equation. For 4 years I gave a lot more money for rubbers, apparels, shoes, club taxes, training, etc. Rubbers alone for this period cost 3 times more than the price of all those 3 blades.
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If I have to choose different wings structure, I would choose Alc for BH and ZLC for FH.
But others, like Yogi for example, would choose the opposite.
So which is "better" is all upon you.
But others, like Yogi for example, would choose the opposite.
So which is "better" is all upon you.
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Right. After a bunch of arguments about Zylon, one day later you jump ship to Zephylium
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Hey I know this thread is really old but recently I got to try out a ZJK sZLC which was around 5 -6 years old or maybe older. For me it felt like a normal sZLC blade and was still really fast. I did test this blade 3 or 4 months ago just came across this thread recently.
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Tbqh I remember around 2013-2015 the two recommended blades here for top amateurs were:
Timo boll spirit
Jun mizutani ZLC (not super for sire)
Both with t05 on each side. And it wasn't uncommon to see new gear threads with the red handled ZLC
We will see ZLC become more popular again when top players use it. At the moment the best women in the world use ALC the best men use ALC. Once that changes we will see it back.
Timo boll spirit
Jun mizutani ZLC (not super for sire)
Both with t05 on each side. And it wasn't uncommon to see new gear threads with the red handled ZLC
We will see ZLC become more popular again when top players use it. At the moment the best women in the world use ALC the best men use ALC. Once that changes we will see it back.
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Felix Lebrun was using inner force ZLC before going to Tibhar. LYJ is using his own super ZLC blade. Youtubers like Pandapong are also using sZLC blades.
LYJ did beat ML at Frankfurt 2023 Finale. People are saying sZLC blades are good for backhand flicks so maybe it will start to catch on among backhand flick-oriented players. Zhang Jike also used sZLC in 2014. Patric Franziska who got his own blade is also using zlc, Sofia Polcanova is also using innerforce zlc.
I personally prefer ZLC over ALC and I love the feeling of sZLC although it is too fast for me currently. I actually have not received my own sZLC blade yet so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I also believe that the reason ZLC is not as popular as ALC is that we don't have a staple for out carbon ZLC I mean we have Viscaria for ALC I don't think there is a Viscaria for ZLC. There is even Revoldia for CNF.
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