Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[blahness]

Short video of how to use the hips to generate power on the BH by one of Harimoto's training partners.

The most, most important thing is that the backswing is initiated by the hips and not the arm. And of course the forward swing is also initiated by the hips, not the arm.
Anders Lind video also emphasises this correctly.

But obviously if you have no idea how to focus energy and brush the ball with your fingers and forearm, even if you use the correct hip rotation it is useless. The hip rotation is a power amplifier, but if your arm movement is wrong it's amplifying the wrong action and you won't get anywhere either.

Thats why I feel like you have to get the fingers, arm movement right first, then add in the hips for more quality.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I had a backhand lesson for 2hours before xmas and it was invaluable. I had it with someone I follow on youtube and really like the way they teach, but it's one thing watching their videos and another thing actually having a lesson. Whilst the videos tell you the theory, the lesson helped me actually understand what I should be feeling as well as letting me know all the things I wasnt' doing but actually thought I was. For example my elbow moved too much and I was also finishing the backhand drive with my bat at an upward angle which on occasion caused the ball to obviously fly up or long. By the end of the 2 hours I was hitting much more consistently and know what to work on over the coming months.

This kind of information should be shared in every post surrounding "coaching".
You don't just master an art of say Kung Fu by reading the manual. That is fictional novel stuff. Real Kung Fu requires to be taught by a master.

 

[dingyibvs]

This kind of information should be shared in every post surrounding "coaching".
You don't just master an art of say Kung Fu by reading the manual. That is fictional novel stuff. Real Kung Fu requires to be taught by a master.

That's pretty true. Like Seth Pech said in one of his videos, "feel is almost never real". You can read tutorials and feel like you're doing it right, but it's not gonna be real. Having a coach correcting your movement every step of the way is the quickest way to get the motion down. It's not impossible to do it by recording yourself, but it would take much, much longer.

Tutorials IMO are more useful for small tweaks. But the basic structure is much better done under the tutelage of a good coach.

 

[Musaab]

Why do you think those are counters and blocks? And where precisely in those videos do you see him taking it from the side?

He is showing how to use the body to generate power, but the mechanism is not visible on most of his shots (I have seen Wang Hao show similar things). The main thing I try to show people with that mechanism is that the backhand topspin power tends to be more about pulling the racket into the ball rather than pushing it into the ball. I have found showing the mechanism with twist but never using it on actual shots to be confusing to most people unless it gives the right feeling (and in my experience, it doesn't do so necessarily, but the fact high level players show it must count for something lol).

Do you speak Korean?

I'm talking about the ones in Zeio's video. I don't speak Korean but I used auto-translate and he seems to suggest taking the ball from a little bit to the side etc... In contrast to Fan Zhendong

 

[Musaab]

Backhand has become so much more important today than ever. Also someone who is strong on both sides tend to last longer (Boll/Chuang)

There is no right technique, but in a nutshell you can punch the ball pack or brush the ball pack, or a bit of both, or 30/70 or 70/30.
Strokes are smaller today, and I always loved to watch women's BH to BH rallies as I felt that is true talent by using what we call quick placement. It is small stroke and uses the wrist to guide the direction of the ball.

I actually chatted to someone recently. One should actually spend way more time on BH in the early stages and learn FH later on - similar to what LYJ did. His FH was always weak, and when he matured from a tiny 15 year old to a strong and fit 18 year old, his FH became complete too

Totally agree, I now use it more often and I'm less fatigued than before with all the running I used to make with the forehand over the entire table

 

[Musaab]

This is true for both forehand and backhand, the speed of the game requires you to take early backswings while moving (cross and semi-cross footwork) and to swing at the ball while moving. But Musaab isn't even discussing this scenario, he is seeing something in very basic backhand countertopspin rallies that I am trying to make sense of but cannot without his input.

Let me give you an imaginary example where you play a part in it, I actually saw a video of you playing long time ago, it is clear you are more comfortable with your backhand, you are also a tall guy. Now if you were to teach someone shorter with different biomechanics the exact backhand loop you do there is a big chance it wouldn't work. Instead, they need to understand the physics of it and try to come up with their own recipes instead following of yours (or anyone for that matter). I'm saying this is at least less applicable to forehand. I do recognize there might be a bias since I'm FH oriented but you should recognize your bias too being BH oriented

 

[Musaab]

In this vid from the start timestamp, JYS is talking about how to use the leg and knee/waist bend/turn to leverage the power... and how to use the wrist and bat start position and swing plane to make BH topspin.

This technique is for off the table. There is no way to play this shot at the table and make another shot like this - takes too long to be ready.

JYS also gets into the feeling at impact and says it is more of a rubbing the ball sensation than banging into it.

JYS is emphasizing the timing of the explosion of body moving parts - that you are exploding up and starting stroke at the same time.

That is a guiding principle for many top level coaches teaching BH - at the table shorter stroke and less to little body torque (more down and up)... and more and more away from table, more use of body torque.

Haha, at 2:21 JYS admits this and recommends for beginners it is no good to learn this kind of stroke when parked at the table... that a player should come off the table and practice this stroke. JYS then steps back to around one meter behind table. Yes, that is an appropriate distance for a BH shot that uses body rotation and torque and longer swing.

Totally and thanks for the translation , FZD though doing it differently , right ?

 

[Musaab]

Short video of how to use the hips to generate power on the BH by one of Harimoto's training partners.

The most, most important thing is that the backswing is initiated by the hips and not the arm. And of course the forward swing is also initiated by the hips, not the arm.
Anders Lind video also emphasises this correctly.

But obviously if you have no idea how to focus energy and brush the ball with your fingers and forearm, even if you use the correct hip rotation it is useless. The hip rotation is a power amplifier, but if your arm movement is wrong it's amplifying the wrong action and you won't get anywhere either.

Thats why I feel like you have to get the fingers, arm movement right first, then add in the hips for more quality.

This is the revelation I had in my head and one training session (pending video confirmation), everything falls in place when I just like the forehand, try to initiate the movement from the legs and let the arm just follow through to hit at that sweet spot

 

[Der_Echte]

Totally and thanks for the translation , FZD though doing it differently , right ?

Hi Musaab,

I chimed in, because I speak Korean and often jist Korean vids... plus you heavily referenced that JYS vid.

I do not know Chinese, maybe @zeio or @Tony's Table Tennis would help you better understand your FZD vid.

As a general thing, some players have some different preferences over others and some are better from a certain position of strike zone than others...

Some old school players hit their BH over the belly button, while JYS and LSS seem to like it to the left of their belly button. It is about setting the strike zone with leverage and using body stance and motion to generate, amplify, and ultimately deliver energy to the ball.

 

[NextLevel]

I'm talking about the ones in Zeio's video. I don't speak Korean but I used auto-translate and he seems to suggest taking the ball from a little bit to the side etc... In contrast to Fan Zhendong

I'm also talking about the one's in zeio's video. Those are almost all off the bounce countertopspins played with different degrees of spin and speed/control.

As I explained, he was trying to explain the use of the hips and the legs similar to how one plays the forehand, but claiming it was more subtle on the backhand. I know some people agree with this, but I don't as I explained earlier, I think there are many ways to use the body on the backhand and most of the time, rotation is not really involved and most of the backhand power from a specific pulling motion from the shoulder similar to unsheathing a sword, throwing a frisbee or doing a breast stroke that involves the core, but not so much the hips or the legs (though they can definitely add something) that involves the core, but not so much the hips or the legs. I watched the full video you provided finally with auto-translate and he spoke clearly about himself being one of the players who takes the backhand with smaller strokes and a strike zone in front of him for rapid attack and spoke about Calderano and Lee Sang Su as players with bigger and more powerful strokes but which challenged recovery more. JYS was one of my favorite players from a style standpoint because of his off-the-bounce counterlooping backhand and I find your analysis of him completely alien to me.

People with auto-translate can verify my statement here:

 

[NextLevel]

Let me give you an imaginary example where you play a part in it, I actually saw a video of you playing long time ago, it is clear you are more comfortable with your backhand, you are also a tall guy. Now if you were to teach someone shorter with different biomechanics the exact backhand loop you do there is a big chance it wouldn't work. Instead, they need to understand the physics of it and try to come up with their own recipes instead following of yours (or anyone for that matter). I'm saying this is at least less applicable to forehand. I do recognize there might be a bias since I'm FH oriented but you should recognize your bias too being BH oriented

I have taught many people backhand, so I clearly disagree. In fact, from a conceptual standpoint, I teach the backhand in my head the same way Pitchford teaches it, I teach people to hit the ball solidly off center (on the side) and then supinate around the ball either upwards for backspin or over the ball for topspin. It's a simple stroke, how well you do it depends on your athleticism, but seeing that a high level player did it gave me the confidence to stop pretending it was alien technique. But other people night focus on things like my height or my reach and then say my backhand or forehand is good because of long arms or some stuff like that.

You haven't posted video of your backhand and I understand backhand enough that I can tell someone technically how to have a basically good one in many ways, but with adults, you have to work against language and internal story telling. Adults often believe they know more than they do know and their logic is correct, so the hard work is getting them to stop thinking and to find a balance between technique and story telling.

There are many ways to play an effective backhand (not even a backhand topspin, I remember when I didn't have a forehand, and a coach told me that you don't need a good backhand to play at a high level, I thought he was wrong, but over the years, I have learned he was correct, you can get to a high level with pips or just blocking on the backhand, it is much harder to do so without attacking on the forehand because the movement on the forehand expanded the options really well though I think Alamiyan is showing that it might just be limited imagination when it comes to backhand play as long as you are willing to move).

The main thing with table tennis IMHO is to just accept that everything is process. If you give up on process, then you have pretty much given up on the problem. If there are things that prevent you from getting on the process, that is just life, one can't have everything in life. But if you can choose what you want, choose what gets you in the process.

 

[NextLevel]

Totally and thanks for the translation , FZD though doing it differently , right ?

The differences are not worth making a big deal about, JYS could probably imitate that backhand if asked to, and Fan can definitely imitate JYS backhand if asked to. JYS takes his backhand a bit earlier and more for speed than Fan, Fan is practicing controlled backhand looping vs block in that video. In fact, if one watches JYS forehand video, and by the way, I have forgot to thank you for letting me know one of my favorite alltime players now has a Youtube Channel, you will see him imitating the arm usage of various players in including Fan/Zhang Jike, Ma Long and Timo Boll. And in his backhand video, he imitates a few swings as well and I think at some point he makes a mention of Fan but I can't remember, but he clearly mentions swinging like Hugo Calderano and Lee Sang Su.

So again, thank you for letting me know the JYS channel exists.

 

[dingyibvs]

Short video of how to use the hips to generate power on the BH by one of Harimoto's training partners.

The most, most important thing is that the backswing is initiated by the hips and not the arm. And of course the forward swing is also initiated by the hips, not the arm.
Anders Lind video also emphasises this correctly.

But obviously if you have no idea how to focus energy and brush the ball with your fingers and forearm, even if you use the correct hip rotation it is useless. The hip rotation is a power amplifier, but if your arm movement is wrong it's amplifying the wrong action and you won't get anywhere either.

Thats why I feel like you have to get the fingers, arm movement right first, then add in the hips for more quality.

It's important to note when to use this technique though. It's not something you use in close to the table counters. It's something you use when you have time, like against backspins or away from the table.

Close to the table you don't have the time to do that, you simply suck in a your belly a bit and lower your left leg slightly and then tense up your body. The important part here is tensing up the body, which will act as a solid base for the fulcrum of your shoulder/elbow. The reason I stress that is because sometimes you'll have to move a bit to the right to hit a BH shot that comes to your middle or slightly to your right. You simply can't rotate to the left or bend your left leg and thus weight transfer from left to right in that situation. However, you CAN still shift to the right to get the ball close to your hitbox, and you CAN still tense up your body to solidify your shot.

That's why I focus on those two things, shifting to get the ball close to your hitbox, and tense up your body for the shot. The body usage close to the table is to enable those two things, not to add extra power through body rotation. The ball comes too quickly when you're playing close to the table, you don't have time to decide when to rotate your body and when you don't. This is unlike the FH shot, when every shot everywhere begins with rotating the body to the right and putting weight on the right foot except for against slow/short/high balls where you have plenty of time to adjust.

 

[blahness]

It's important to note when to use this technique though. It's not something you use in close to the table counters. It's something you use when you have time, like against backspins or away from the table.

Close to the table you don't have the time to do that, you simply suck in a your belly a bit and lower your left leg slightly and then tense up your body. The important part here is tensing up the body, which will act as a solid base for the fulcrum of your shoulder/elbow. The reason I stress that is because sometimes you'll have to move a bit to the right to hit a BH shot that comes to your middle or slightly to your right. You simply can't rotate to the left or bend your left leg and thus weight transfer from left to right in that situation. However, you CAN still shift to the right to get the ball close to your hitbox, and you CAN still tense up your body to solidify your shot.

That's why I focus on those two things, shifting to get the ball close to your hitbox, and tense up your body for the shot. The body usage close to the table is to enable those two things, not to add extra power through body rotation. The ball comes too quickly when you're playing close to the table, you don't have time to decide when to rotate your body and when you don't. This is unlike the FH shot, when every shot everywhere begins with rotating the body to the right and putting weight on the right foot except for against slow/short/high balls where you have plenty of time to adjust.

Not necessarily. This is the full hip rotation stroke which I think is about 30-45 deg rotation.

Also, its not necessarily a left to right weight transfer - if the ball is to your right hip or more you actually load up your right leg and push off it (while rotating hips). If ball is to your left side you load up your left leg. You actually push off both legs if it's to your middle. The reason why it's unintuitive is because, the hip rotation is more of an internal hip rotation where you rotate inwards, not externally like the FH.

Against fast topspin, you don't rotate 30-45 deg, maybe only 5-15 deg but the rotation has to be there if you want to get any kind of good power and control over the shot. If you make a stroke smaller, it should have all the same components except in a smaller magnitude, otherwise when do you know when to use full stroke vs abbreviated stroke? Having gears in your movement ensures that you have a smooth transition to all balls.

Also, hip rotation is way faster than moving your arms. This also applies to FH. Even straightening arm during backswing is a waste of precious backswing time, when you can just rotate hips to backswing, forward swing and then recover (also with the hips).

 

[dingyibvs]

Not necessarily. This is the full hip rotation stroke which I think is about 30-45 deg rotation.

Also, its not necessarily a left to right weight transfer - if the ball is to your right hip or more you actually load up your right leg and push off it (while rotating hips). If ball is to your left side you load up your left leg. You actually push off both legs if it's to your middle. The reason why it's unintuitive is because, the hip rotation is more of an internal hip rotation where you rotate inwards, not externally like the FH.

Against fast topspin, you don't rotate 30-45 deg, maybe only 5-15 deg but the rotation has to be there if you want to get any kind of good power and control over the shot. If you make a stroke smaller, it should have all the same components except in a smaller magnitude, otherwise when do you know when to use full stroke vs abbreviated stroke? Having gears in your movement ensures that you have a smooth transition to all balls.

Also, hip rotation is way faster than moving your arms. This also applies to FH. Even straightening arm during backswing is a waste of precious backswing time, when you can just rotate hips to backswing, forward swing and then recover (also with the hips).

No, that's the wrong way of teaching it, and it's part of the reason I along apparently some others think online tutorials are useless.

The close to the table shot is not merely a smaller variation of the away from the table or vs backspin shot. The key here is that the ratio of waist rotation vs spinal flexion/extension is different between the two shots. The larger motion loop is more like an analog of the FH shot, with a very pronounced left/right rotation, good whip motion from the legs to the waist to all the joints of the upper extremity sequentially. The mistake is to teach the close to the table shot similarly, thinking it's just the same mechanics but with a smaller motion. It doesn't look the same, as others have pointed out, yet all sorts of teachers think they're the same and teach them the same way. That's wrong.

You touched on the difference between the two, albeit using incorrect terms. You said it's more like an "internal rotation". Internal and exertnal rotation refer to the limbs as it rotates around the trunk, while the trunk, as the point of reference, does not internally or externally rotate. I get what you mean though, the rotation is not predominantly right to left. You're flexing your hip and your spine at both the lumbar and thoracic regions during the backswing. The lumbar/hip flexion kicks your hip out, the thoracic flexion brings your shoulder down, and the right to left rotation adds a diagonal component. The resulting overall motion is what you actually see, the the left hip kicks out to the left (and thus belly sucked in while the left leg flexes), and the shoulder is brought down and to the left.

That's the primary motion for a close to the table shot. The larger motion shot involves a much larger component of the left/right rotation, while the smaller motion is primarily flexion of the spine/hip, with a bit of rotation.

When I was trying to add body to my BH shot, I initially tried the left/right rotation method, but it was a disaster with quicker counters. I gave up on it, and instead focused on adjusting my body to ensure the ball comes to my strike zone. When the ball came fast, I naturally lowered my body and kicked my hip out to the left to give me a bit of additional space to get to the ball. Then when I struck the ball with all my power, my body naturally tensed up and returned to the neutral position. It ended up looking exactly like how the pros showed it, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen.

IMO that's the correct way to approach body usage in close counters. If you try to approach it from the left/right rotation method, you'll never get there. This is especially true if you start off your BH practice with power loops of backspins or away from the table. That's a very natural motion, you get used to that and try to just use a smaller version of the same motion you'll end up with the wrong ratio of rotation vs spinal flex/extension.

 

[Der_Echte]

Yes, good central key point.

Allowing ball to come to strike zone (if you set position good enough) and NOT over-torque the body is critical to consistent quality impact on a BH counter vs a faster incoming ball. You only need to squat a little and bow a little.

Now vs a lower energy ball a meter off the table torque that body some and turn those shoulders some and bend that knee, you can be efficient and powerful vs that ball off the table... but vs incoming fast ball, trying for huge backswing and torque will just get you in trouble. it is extra level difficulty timing the impact in strike zone with all those moving parts vs that fast ball.

 

[Dr Evil]

I like this Seth Pech video about common technical errors. Eliminating things you do wrong might be a more efficient way to improve than trying to do everything right all at once.

 

[NextLevel]

The thing is that there are also many backhand topspin techniques. What I consider the classic one that most people who just want to spin should learn is the one that coach Hoang teaches here. If you can do this technique, then you can evolve to other variations later. But if your backhand looks like this, you are fine and have a good base to build on, don't let the envy of professionals make you miserable. A lot of the rest is enhanced backswing and elbow positioning and that just builds on itself over time as you get stronger and work on doing more with less. You can also make slightly different swings that move over shorter or larger distances but this is a good base to start with.

You don't have to learn only one technique for playing the ball. It is the secret of technical evolution - you can learn new strokes to add to your technical repertoire and select over time and there are many pros and a few cons of doing so. Your stroke doesn't have to look like Wang Chuqin on day one. But if your day one stroke is sound, it isnt that hard to add the things that Pitchford or Wang Chuqin add if you put in the time to train. That is my low level opinion of course.

 

[Der_Echte]

No, that's the wrong way of teaching it, and it's part of the reason I along apparently some others think online tutorials are useless.

The close to the table shot is not merely a smaller variation of the away from the table or vs backspin shot. The key here is that the ratio of waist rotation vs spinal flexion/extension is different between the two shots. The larger motion loop is more like an analog of the FH shot, with a very pronounced left/right rotation, good whip motion from the legs to the waist to all the joints of the upper extremity sequentially. The mistake is to teach the close to the table shot similarly, thinking it's just the same mechanics but with a smaller motion. It doesn't look the same, as others have pointed out, yet all sorts of teachers think they're the same and teach them the same way. That's wrong.

You touched on the difference between the two, albeit using incorrect terms. You said it's more like an "internal rotation". Internal and exertnal rotation refer to the limbs as it rotates around the trunk, while the trunk, as the point of reference, does not internally or externally rotate. I get what you mean though, the rotation is not predominantly right to left. You're flexing your hip and your spine at both the lumbar and thoracic regions during the backswing. The lumbar/hip flexion kicks your hip out, the thoracic flexion brings your shoulder down, and the right to left rotation adds a diagonal component. The resulting overall motion is what you actually see, the the left hip kicks out to the left (and thus belly sucked in while the left leg flexes), and the shoulder is brought down and to the left.

That's the primary motion for a close to the table shot. The larger motion shot involves a much larger component of the left/right rotation, while the smaller motion is primarily flexion of the spine/hip, with a bit of rotation.

When I was trying to add body to my BH shot, I initially tried the left/right rotation method, but it was a disaster with quicker counters. I gave up on it, and instead focused on adjusting my body to ensure the ball comes to my strike zone. When the ball came fast, I naturally lowered my body and kicked my hip out to the left to give me a bit of additional space to get to the ball. Then when I struck the ball with all my power, my body naturally tensed up and returned to the neutral position. It ended up looking exactly like how the pros showed it, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen.

IMO that's the correct way to approach body usage in close counters. If you try to approach it from the left/right rotation method, you'll never get there. This is especially true if you start off your BH practice with power loops of backspins or away from the table. That's a very natural motion, you get used to that and try to just use a smaller version of the same motion you'll end up with the wrong ratio of rotation vs spinal flex/extension.

What @dingyibvs is saying here is remarkable... I met him a little under a year ago and had a hit with him... his understanding and application of BH was USATT 1000 level... meaning it was many levels below average.

What he just wrote and expressed now shows a level of understanding and approach that maybe 5-10% of the better players have.

This can only be from what he is gaining from his adult coach who I have yet to meet and shake hiz hand.
That is what effective adult coaches do and they are very few and far in between.

 

[NextLevel]

No, that's the wrong way of teaching it, and it's part of the reason I along apparently some others think online tutorials are useless.

The close to the table shot is not merely a smaller variation of the away from the table or vs backspin shot. The key here is that the ratio of waist rotation vs spinal flexion/extension is different between the two shots. The larger motion loop is more like an analog of the FH shot, with a very pronounced left/right rotation, good whip motion from the legs to the waist to all the joints of the upper extremity sequentially. The mistake is to teach the close to the table shot similarly, thinking it's just the same mechanics but with a smaller motion. It doesn't look the same, as others have pointed out, yet all sorts of teachers think they're the same and teach them the same way. That's wrong.

You touched on the difference between the two, albeit using incorrect terms. You said it's more like an "internal rotation". Internal and exertnal rotation refer to the limbs as it rotates around the trunk, while the trunk, as the point of reference, does not internally or externally rotate. I get what you mean though, the rotation is not predominantly right to left. You're flexing your hip and your spine at both the lumbar and thoracic regions during the backswing. The lumbar/hip flexion kicks your hip out, the thoracic flexion brings your shoulder down, and the right to left rotation adds a diagonal component. The resulting overall motion is what you actually see, the the left hip kicks out to the left (and thus belly sucked in while the left leg flexes), and the shoulder is brought down and to the left.

That's the primary motion for a close to the table shot. The larger motion shot involves a much larger component of the left/right rotation, while the smaller motion is primarily flexion of the spine/hip, with a bit of rotation.

When I was trying to add body to my BH shot, I initially tried the left/right rotation method, but it was a disaster with quicker counters. I gave up on it, and instead focused on adjusting my body to ensure the ball comes to my strike zone. When the ball came fast, I naturally lowered my body and kicked my hip out to the left to give me a bit of additional space to get to the ball. Then when I struck the ball with all my power, my body naturally tensed up and returned to the neutral position. It ended up looking exactly like how the pros showed it, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen.

IMO that's the correct way to approach body usage in close counters. If you try to approach it from the left/right rotation method, you'll never get there. This is especially true if you start off your BH practice with power loops of backspins or away from the table. That's a very natural motion, you get used to that and try to just use a smaller version of the same motion you'll end up with the wrong ratio of rotation vs spinal flex/extension.

I think you are correct. I would argue that 95% of this follows if you get your arm backswing into the proper shape and let it move over a very short distance with whip mechanics, so I just focus on making sure the arm mechanics are right and then let people figure out the body on their own using a breast stroke or unsheathing a sword as a paradigm.