Backhand topspin tutorials are useless

[blahness]

No, that's the wrong way of teaching it, and it's part of the reason I along apparently some others think online tutorials are useless.

The close to the table shot is not merely a smaller variation of the away from the table or vs backspin shot. The key here is that the ratio of waist rotation vs spinal flexion/extension is different between the two shots. The larger motion loop is more like an analog of the FH shot, with a very pronounced left/right rotation, good whip motion from the legs to the waist to all the joints of the upper extremity sequentially. The mistake is to teach the close to the table shot similarly, thinking it's just the same mechanics but with a smaller motion. It doesn't look the same, as others have pointed out, yet all sorts of teachers think they're the same and teach them the same way. That's wrong.

You touched on the difference between the two, albeit using incorrect terms. You said it's more like an "internal rotation". Internal and exertnal rotation refer to the limbs as it rotates around the trunk, while the trunk, as the point of reference, does not internally or externally rotate. I get what you mean though, the rotation is not predominantly right to left. You're flexing your hip and your spine at both the lumbar and thoracic regions during the backswing. The lumbar/hip flexion kicks your hip out, the thoracic flexion brings your shoulder down, and the right to left rotation adds a diagonal component. The resulting overall motion is what you actually see, the the left hip kicks out to the left (and thus belly sucked in while the left leg flexes), and the shoulder is brought down and to the left.

That's the primary motion for a close to the table shot. The larger motion shot involves a much larger component of the left/right rotation, while the smaller motion is primarily flexion of the spine/hip, with a bit of rotation.

When I was trying to add body to my BH shot, I initially tried the left/right rotation method, but it was a disaster with quicker counters. I gave up on it, and instead focused on adjusting my body to ensure the ball comes to my strike zone. When the ball came fast, I naturally lowered my body and kicked my hip out to the left to give me a bit of additional space to get to the ball. Then when I struck the ball with all my power, my body naturally tensed up and returned to the neutral position. It ended up looking exactly like how the pros showed it, and I wasn't even trying to make it happen.

IMO that's the correct way to approach body usage in close counters. If you try to approach it from the left/right rotation method, you'll never get there. This is especially true if you start off your BH practice with power loops of backspins or away from the table. That's a very natural motion, you get used to that and try to just use a smaller version of the same motion you'll end up with the wrong ratio of rotation vs spinal flex/extension.

I know ppl who have different structures between full BH loops and close table countering (Truls, Aruna, even Ma Long to some extent come to mind) and it's a valid playstyle too, but it's not what the most modern BH philosophy is which emphasises similar structures for all balls (yes including chiquita too). You can see for eg Lin Yun Ju, Harimoto, Wang Chuqin, Liang Jingkun - their full BH loop stroke isn't all that different to the close table loops or even the chiquita - it's just about having a stroke with many gears and managing the gears to deal with different balls (with of course different contact points and timing). This way the transitions are a lot smoother, because there are a lot of balls which are ambiguous in length, and it's better to not have to think about which stroke structure to use if you only have a split second.

I also want to challenge the perception that the hips are slower than the arm, in my experience any kind of arm backswing is way slower than just using the hips. Most time wastage in backswings have to do with excessive arm usage - this is true regardless of stroke (be it pushes or flicks or loops on both wings).

Also the internal rotation (Harimoto's trainer video above) refers also to hip rotation, it's definitely not the lumbar or spine (which imo is a source of many lower back injuries - better to keep lower back braced and fixed). What I found out is that in FH, both knees stay relatively bent during the backswing and forward swing, and a lot of the rotation is enabled by the feet pronating or rotating. Whereas the BH hip rotation backswing taught in the video is enabled by the right knee bending forward more relative to the left knee which moves the right hip in front of the left knee which causes the rotation (forward swing is opposite). The feet don't rotate to achieve the hip rotation in this type of BH structure. So no, it's not a mirror copy of the FH weight transfer / hip rotation structure, but its own unique structure in its own right.

 

[dingyibvs]

What @dingyibvs is saying here is remarkable... I met him a little under a year ago and had a hit with him... his understanding and application of BH was USATT 1000 level... meaning it was many levels below average.

What he just wrote and expressed now shows a level of understanding and approach that maybe 5-10% of the better players have.

This can only be from what he is gaining from his adult coach who I have yet to meet and shake hiz hand.
That is what effective adult coaches do and they are very few and far in between.

One of the best thing that coach did for me was asking me to try using my body, then told me to stop doing that after about 5 shots He felt, rather correctly, that I wasn't ready for it. Before that, I kept trying to play BH the way I played FH. You know how some people even teach FH by having you not use your arm at all and use only your legs/body drive the ball? I thought it'd be like that for the BH side. I'm glad he put a stop to it and had me focus on my arm/shoulder movement first.

 

[dingyibvs]

I know ppl who have different structures between full BH loops and close table countering (Truls, Aruna, even Ma Long to some extent come to mind) and it's a valid playstyle too, but it's not what the most modern BH philosophy is which emphasises similar structures for all balls (yes including chiquita too). You can see for eg Lin Yun Ju, Harimoto, Wang Chuqin, Liang Jingkun - their full BH loop stroke isn't all that different to the close table loops or even the chiquita - it's just about having a stroke with many gears and managing the gears to deal with different balls (with of course different contact points and timing). This way the transitions are a lot smoother, because there are a lot of balls which are ambiguous in length, and it's better to not have to think about which stroke structure to use if you only have a split second.

I also want to challenge the perception that the hips are slower than the arm, in my experience any kind of arm backswing is way slower than just using the hips. Most time wastage in backswings have to do with excessive arm usage - this is true regardless of stroke (be it pushes or flicks or loops on both wings).

Also the internal rotation (Harimoto's trainer video above) refers also to hip rotation, it's definitely not the lumbar or spine (which imo is a source of many lower back injuries - better to keep lower back braced and fixed). What I found out is that in FH, both knees stay relatively bent during the backswing and forward swing, and a lot of the rotation is enabled by the feet pronating or rotating. Whereas the BH hip rotation backswing taught in the video is enabled by the right knee bending forward more relative to the left knee which moves the right hip in front of the left knee which causes the rotation (forward swing is opposite). The feet don't rotate to achieve the hip rotation in this type of BH structure. So no, it's not a mirror copy of the FH weight transfer / hip rotation structure, but its own unique structure in its own right.

If anything, the modern BH uses the close to the table technique farther out, not the other way around. It's the Kreanga generation that uses the far from the table technique closer to the table. If you look at old training videos, you can see ML and ZJK still practicing with the very left/right moving technique that Fang Bo or Harimoto's training partner demonstrates. If you look at ML's more recent training videos, you see that he uses a much more compact motion now.

While hips can rotate pretty fast, you're forgetting about inertia. Wave your arm back and forth, how many times can you do it in a second? Now rotate your hip left and right, how many times can you do it in a second? When your hip rotates your whole upper body rotates (that's the point, right?), that's a lot of mass, a lot of inertia. Transitioning from a backswing to a forward swing means reversing all that inertia all in a split second during BH quick counters. This is something anyone can do at home, and it's empiric proof of my point.

The lumbar spine is not used much, but the thoracic spine is, though you're right it shouldn't be used much. In fact the body isn't used that much, period. It's just slight adjustment for the strike zone, and that's really the point. Tell me how much WCQ is using the body in this video, it has clips showing both cross table and down the line BH practices:

Or just watch something like this, did you see either FZD or WCQ pull out anything resembling what your video shows? Or simply a slight drawing back of the hip and then tensing up, like what I was describing?

 

[blahness]

If anything, the modern BH uses the close to the table technique farther out, not the other way around. It's the Kreanga generation that uses the far from the table technique closer to the table. If you look at old training videos, you can see ML and ZJK still practicing with the very left/right moving technique that Fang Bo or Harimoto's training partner demonstrates. If you look at ML's more recent training videos, you see that he uses a much more compact motion now.

While hips can rotate pretty fast, you're forgetting about inertia. Wave your arm back and forth, how many times can you do it in a second? Now rotate your hip left and right, how many times can you do it in a second? When your hip rotates your whole upper body rotates (that's the point, right?), that's a lot of mass, a lot of inertia. Transitioning from a backswing to a forward swing means reversing all that inertia all in a split second during BH quick counters. This is something anyone can do at home, and it's empiric proof of my point.

The lumbar spine is not used much, but the thoracic spine is, though you're right it shouldn't be used much. In fact the body isn't used that much, period. It's just slight adjustment for the strike zone, and that's really the point. Tell me how much WCQ is using the body in this video, it has clips showing both cross table and down the line BH practices:

Or just watch something like this, did you see either FZD or WCQ pull out anything resembling what your video shows? Or simply a slight drawing back of the hip and then tensing up, like what I was describing?

They're using the exact same mechanism just a smaller version of it - obviously the video is showing the mechanism so it has to be exaggerated, but if you understand the mechanism you can dial down the movement easily but not the other way around.

I actually can do hip rotations at very high frequencies (maybe even twice a second if I wanna go nuts about it), faster than I can wave my arms lol.

WCQ is using body for the majority of his shots and so is FZD, just that the magnitude is small. Also its better to watch their training videos and not so much matches to know their stroke structure because in matches they're often forced into suboptimal positions where they make some compromises in hitting form to land the shot.

 

[dingyibvs]

They're using the exact same mechanism just a smaller version of it - obviously the video is showing the mechanism so it has to be exaggerated, but if you understand the mechanism you can dial down the movement easily but not the other way around.

I actually can do hip rotations at very high frequencies (maybe even twice a second if I wanna go nuts about it), faster than I can wave my arms lol.

WCQ is using body for the majority of his shots and so is FZD, just that the magnitude is small. Also its better to watch their training videos and not so much matches to know their stroke structure because in matches they're often forced into suboptimal positions where they make some compromises in hitting form to land the shot.

IMO you're misunderstanding their movement if you think they're just using a smaller version of it. In fact, the primary muscle usage is even different. For the bigger motion, I feel significant activation of both the my left and right obliques, which makes sense as both are the primary waist rotators. With the smaller motion, I feel it primarily in the left oblique, which stabilizes the core and allows the power from the glute's hip extension to transfer upward.

Also, IDK what's wrong with your arm lol, I just timed myself waving my arm back and forth 10 times in 2.3 seconds. 10 times with my waist, to the degree of the smaller motion, took 4.9 seconds, so that's similar to your speed.

WCQ/FZD absolutely uses his body, in all shots really. Just not in the way you describe. It's the tensing of the core that's the key. Try doing a BH swing without tensing your core, your shoulder and whole body will go backwards. Tensing of the core prevents that, and that's all you should be doing close to the table.

 

[blahness]

IMO you're misunderstanding their movement if you think they're just using a smaller version of it. In fact, the primary muscle usage is even different. For the bigger motion, I feel significant activation of both the my left and right obliques, which makes sense as both are the primary waist rotators. With the smaller motion, I feel it primarily in the left oblique, which stabilizes the core and allows the power from the glute's hip extension to transfer upward.

Also, IDK what's wrong with your arm lol, I just timed myself waving my arm back and forth 10 times in 2.3 seconds. 10 times with my waist, to the degree of the smaller motion, took 4.9 seconds, so that's similar to your speed.

WCQ/FZD absolutely uses his body, in all shots really. Just not in the way you describe. It's the tensing of the core that's the key. Try doing a BH swing without tensing your core, your shoulder and whole body will go backwards. Tensing of the core prevents that, and that's all you should be doing close to the table.

I would seriously doubt you did a full arm movement with that frequency. I'm not talking about half strokes but full TT strokes - you have to match the amount of distance between the arm movement and how much the arm moves with a single hip rotation for an apples to apples comparison.

I don't think you can reach their quality easily with just tensing core (that is just basics), the lower body must absolutely be involved in order for your shots to even have a chance of breaching 40-50km/h.

 

[dingyibvs]

I would seriously doubt you did a full arm movement with that frequency. I'm not talking about half strokes but full TT strokes - you have to match the amount of distance between the arm movement and how much the arm moves with a single hip rotation for an apples to apples comparison.

I don't think you can reach their quality easily with just tensing core (that is just basics), the lower body must absolutely be involved in order for your shots to even have a chance of breaching 40-50km/h.

Yes, full arm movement for a TT stroke. How much are you moving your arm for a quick counter? I'm beginning to think we're talking about different strokes!

As for the speed, for one, when both you and your opponent are close to the table you don't need much more than 40-50 km/h speed. Secondly, you absolutely can reach very good speed. You probably won't get any higher than that if you're hitting a slow moving ball, like a backspin ball, but when the incoming ball has good speed as well, even if just an active block, you can certainly return a ball with pretty good speed with a small motion. Again, it makes me wonder if we're talking about different strokes altogether.

 

[blahness]

Yes, full arm movement for a TT stroke. How much are you moving your arm for a quick counter? I'm beginning to think we're talking about different strokes!

As for the speed, for one, when both you and your opponent are close to the table you don't need much more than 40-50 km/h speed. Secondly, you absolutely can reach very good speed. You probably won't get any higher than that if you're hitting a slow moving ball, like a backspin ball, but when the incoming ball has good speed as well, even if just an active block, you can certainly return a ball with pretty good speed with a small motion. Again, it makes me wonder if we're talking about different strokes altogether.

Yes, you appear to be talking about countering, I'm actually talking about full on high quality close table consecutive early timing BH topspins where you want to put a lot of pressure on the opponent. Imo it is possible to do it without much body use, but the quality with the lower body added is on another level.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, you appear to be talking about countering, I'm actually talking about full on high quality close table consecutive early timing BH topspins where you want to put a lot of pressure on the opponent. Imo it is possible to do it without much body use, but the quality with the lower body added is on another level.

I've been specifying countering the whole time! But yes, if the opponent blocks and you got yourself a nice slow ball back, go ham with the waist use. At higher levels your opponent will counter you, or at least an active block off the bounce, in which case you won't have enough time for a full on loop.

 

[blahness]

I've been specifying countering the whole time! But yes, if the opponent blocks and you got yourself a nice slow ball back, go ham with the waist use. At higher levels your opponent will counter you, or at least an active block off the bounce, in which case you won't have enough time for a full on loop.

No but eventually you reach the limit of countering (even close table) because if you can only counter and the other person is doing close table BH topspin (反撕) or even countertopspin, you're in a world of hurt because you're gonna get overwhelmed by the topspin pressure - the simplest patterns being just switching from elbow to deep BH. There's never gonna be a block or slow ball by the opponent if they're adept at the close table BH topspin. I was bullied like that on the BH side for the longest of time so I do know a bit of its limitations - it was annoying af for sure. When countering, the outgoing ball looks fast and you're taking it early, but in reality it doesn't have the weight and spin of a stroke that has the lower body behind it.

 

[dingyibvs]

No but eventually you reach the limit of countering (even close table) because if you can only counter and the other person is doing close table BH topspin (反撕) or even countertopspin, you're in a world of hurt because you're gonna get overwhelmed by the topspin pressure - the simplest patterns being just switching from elbow to deep BH. There's never gonna be a block or slow ball by the opponent if they're adept at the close table BH topspin. I was bullied like that on the BH side for the longest of time so I do know a bit of its limitations - it was annoying af for sure. When countering, the outgoing ball looks fast and you're taking it early, but in reality it doesn't have the weight and spin of a stroke that has the lower body behind it.

OK, we're back to the start. The countering I'm referring to is 反撕. It's a topspin against a topspin near the table. A loop would be 反拉, and that's not realistic close to the table. Also, I'm not saying don't use the lower body, I'm saying that the lower body usage close to the table in a counter (反撕) is different from that of a loop (拉) and not merely a smaller motion version of it.

 

[Der_Echte]

I will sometime meetup with @dingyibvs and see for myself if his BH approach and execution are full of it or not.

From how i see him articulating things, I doubt he is full of it. I think it is gunna turn out he is one of the under 10% who get it.

A different note.

In last year's camp, Stellan Bengston told me on one of my BH loops vs underspin at the table, that I did not follow through long enough ( like .5 meter ) after impact...

I told him for my fast loop vs that slower underspin ball at the table, that I firm up the arm at impact, so there is not much physical chance of a long follow through... and the reset is very quick. I have a similar stop and quick reset on my BH fast hit vs a loose ball. (vs underspin and making a slow very spinny loop, I have a long follow through as i do not firm arm at impact for that shot)

He told me he knew of two BH GOATs of their era (Waldner and Persson) who did not do my short follow through. I have always said that when arguably the best living professional coach says something like that it should have heavy weight.

A day or two later in his camp, he told me my BH had good ECONOMY. He said I have good ready position, a quick, short efficient backswing, and a short effective direct path to the ball and a quick reset.

There are always multiple approaches in TT with their own cons or pros. All the Korean pros I have jisted vids for frequently say there is no "Jung-Dap" in TT, which means no singular correct answer.

I get it that players want to approach things in different ways... but in the case of at the table or even a step away vs a fast incoming ball, there is no time to make the longer torque and swing strokes and do it more than once... and all that long torque, backswing, and swing are damned difficult to time and make consistent impact with the ball in zone with leverage and control.

 

[blahness]

OK, we're back to the start. The countering I'm referring to is 反撕. It's a topspin against a topspin near the table. A loop would be 反拉, and that's not realistic close to the table. Also, I'm not saying don't use the lower body, I'm saying that the lower body usage close to the table in a counter (反撕) is different from that of a loop (拉) and not merely a smaller motion version of it.

I guess the key litmus test that differentiates these concepts is for eg against a long fast heavy pendulum sideunderspin or underspin serve or a sudden long fast push or dead flick, do you need to take a step back from the table to loop it after the ball starts to fall, or can you actually take it at early timing on the rise and loop it back with tons of spin. If the technique can achieve this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the methods. There's a lot of BH actions even among the pros anyway and if you can make it work nobody is gonna doubt you.

 

[dingyibvs]

I guess the key litmus test that differentiates these concepts is for eg against a long fast heavy pendulum sideunderspin or underspin serve or a sudden long fast push or dead flick, do you need to take a step back from the table to loop it after the ball starts to fall, or can you actually take it at early timing on the rise and loop it back with tons of spin. If the technique can achieve this, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the methods. There's a lot of BH actions even among the pros anyway and if you can make it work nobody is gonna doubt you.

I'm not sure I understand, why would I use a quick counter technique on those balls? The litmus test of a quick counter technique is whether it works in quick counters, no?

But yes, I think we'd just need to agree to disagree. I always keep an open mind though. I'm finishing my BH only trainings this week, but next time I get around to focusing on my BH I'll see if I can incorporate at least some of what you're talking about. My current understanding has resulted in a big leap in my BH capabilities which I've sought for a long time to no avail, but I'm certainly open to tweaks that can further improve it beyond mere practiced consistency.

 

[blahness]

I'm not sure I understand, why would I use a quick counter technique on those balls? The litmus test of a quick counter technique is whether it works in quick counters, no?

But yes, I think we'd just need to agree to disagree. I always keep an open mind though. I'm finishing my BH only trainings this week, but next time I get around to focusing on my BH I'll see if I can incorporate at least some of what you're talking about. My current understanding has resulted in a big leap in my BH capabilities which I've sought for a long time to no avail, but I'm certainly open to tweaks that can further improve it beyond mere practiced consistency.

That's the ultimate goal, because a good BH loop structure can deal a decisive attack against all balls, be it long or short, topspin or no spin or underspin, fast or slow, pendulum or reverse pendulum sidespin.

The problem is that you never know what is really coming to you, especially against pips players where you actually have to counter against fast dead balls or even mild underspin or sidespin etc... you probably have already met a few in the amateur circles with their main aim being to disgust you. And the problem with no hip rotation is a lack of power to overcome the variation in all these sudden non topspin balls without compromising on a close table position.

For eg you serve short sidetopspin and it gets flicked with mild underspin fast to your BH, if you didn't have the quick hip rotation you're pretty much toast, because you can't borrow energy to counter this flick (it is not topspin). If you push this long ball it'll pop up for a juicy 4th ball attack by your opponent. If you borrow energy for a quick counter its going into the base of the net because it actually has underspin on it. If you retreat to BH loop the ball when its falling, your wide FH is a big gaping hole open for the next block and then you'll be running around like a madman and your chances of winning the point becomes much less. Even if you try to lift it up with an open bat angle, it is also a weak stroke and will be 4th ball loopkilled. There's a lot of other disgusting scenarios like this.

But even inverted players can punch dead or apply huge topspin suddenly. Imo if a stroke only works against topspin it is not versatile enough. But even against incoming topspin, borrowing the incoming energy and countering it back is not as effective as producing loads of outgoing spin actively yourself (which is what really defines 反撕 - it borrows the incoming spin and pace but also actively produces a ton of outgoing spin which is why it is the most advanced BH stroke)

 

[dingyibvs]

That's the ultimate goal, because a good BH loop structure can deal a decisive attack against all balls, be it long or short, topspin or no spin or underspin, fast or slow, pendulum or reverse pendulum sidespin.

The problem is that you never know what is really coming to you, especially against pips players where you actually have to counter against fast dead balls or even mild underspin or sidespin etc... you probably have already met a few in the amateur circles with their main aim being to disgust you. And the problem with no hip rotation is a lack of power to overcome the variation in all these sudden non topspin balls without compromising on a close table position.

For eg you serve short sidetopspin and it gets flicked with mild underspin fast to your BH, if you didn't have the quick hip rotation you're pretty much toast, because you can't borrow energy to counter this flick (it is not topspin). If you push this long ball it'll pop up for a juicy 4th ball attack by your opponent. If you borrow energy for a quick counter its going into the base of the net because it actually has underspin on it. If you retreat to BH loop the ball when its falling, your wide FH is a big gaping hole open for the next block and then you'll be running around like a madman and your chances of winning the point becomes much less. Even if you try to lift it up with an open bat angle, it is also a weak stroke and will be 4th ball loopkilled. There's a lot of other disgusting scenarios like this.

But even inverted players can punch dead or apply huge topspin suddenly. Imo if a stroke only works against topspin it is not versatile enough. But even against incoming topspin, borrowing the incoming energy and countering it back is not as effective as producing loads of outgoing spin actively yourself (which is what really defines 反撕 - it borrows the incoming spin and pace but also actively produces a ton of outgoing spin which is why it is the most advanced BH stroke)

IMO there are a few things to be said about this approach.

First, the only difference between the my two BH body usages is really the left/right movement. When you have time, twist more left right (both with legs and at the waist). Since the only adjustment needed is when you have time, well, time isn't an issue then.

Second, you should be able to identify a fast topspin versus one of the other possibilities you listed very, very early. A LP player will never give you a fast heavy topspin, for example. This is a separate topic, but I don't like serving short to pips players, especially not to the FH side. A short services to their BH side means that if they want to attack my weaker BH side the ball needs to come cross table, giving me more time to prepare. I also don't back off from the table to BH loop, if only for the reason that I don't know how to yet I mean, I've tried, but the quality and consistency are terrible, so I don't use it in games. I'm looking to add it to my arsenal though!

Your example of an inverted player punching dead or apply huge topspin suddenly is EXACTLY the reason I came to the conclusion I did. I had tremendous trouble against that exact scenario until I developed this. The small motion is quick enough yet allows me to create enough space to react to those balls. I had a lot of trouble developing this shot against the robot because the balls it produced just wasn't fast enough. The body usage (and fingers too, thx btw ) gave me the control I needed to counter those balls with as much power as I can muster instead of resorting to blocking.

I think in the end, I see the merit of your approach. It's a classic all-around vs. specialist debate. You pursue a consistency in approach, which itself should lead to some level of consistency if only due to the fact that you're using it every shot. I found 2 slightly different approaches, a default one that I believe gives me better reaction time, and a more powerful one for when I have more time.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi @dingyibvs this may blow ur mind, but I think from early on, and throughout the match, it is VERY important to serve short to the FH.

Why?

I want the player to know from the very get-go that my FH pendulum underspin is HEAVY. They will often put it into the net the first few times. That is enough to establish heavy underspin with your FH pendulum underspin motion... I move it to their pips side too and get a net or two...

This gets the pips player to open their bat more or play safer... that is when I break out my best serves... THE NO SPIN or light spin serve... Now the ball is coming high and/or long... EXACTLY what I want to continue my campaign of terror. I make a very heavy topspin and they block it out with their inverted... then also with their pips.

They soon realize their goose is cooked.

I move that serve back to short FH occasionally to keep my serve to their pips fresh and effective.

Spin variation comes from having a heavy underspin and a light to dead ball that have a large difference in spin all with the same motion that you sell well.

That is the art and essence of serving whether inverted or pips opponents.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi @dingyibvs this may blow ur mind, but I think from early on, and throughout the match, it is VERY important to serve short to the FH.

Why?

I want the player to know from the very get-go that my FH pendulum underspin is HEAVY. They will often put it into the net the first few times. That is enough to establish heavy underspin with your FH pendulum underspin motion... I move it to their pips side too and get a net or two...

This gets the pips player to open their bat more or play safer... that is when I break out my best serves... THE NO SPIN or light spin serve... Now the ball is coming high and/or long... EXACTLY what I want to continue my campaign of terror. I make a very heavy topspin and they block it out with their inverted... then also with their pips.

They soon realize their goose is cooked.

I move that serve back to short FH occasionally to keep my serve to their pips fresh and effective.

Spin variation comes from having a heavy underspin and a light to dead ball that have a large difference in spin all with the same motion that you sell well.

That is the art and essence of serving whether inverted or pips opponents.

Hmm, interesting, I use that a lot against inverted players, but I feel like against pips players they often take the ball early and go very wide to my FH or push quick and deep to my BH. Neither of which I like very much. I loop well down the line, so when I serve them wide to the BH side then if they push long to my FH, I loop down the line with heavy spin which they're often not expecting. I'd either score right away or get a block back that I can kill next. If they push to my BH, I'd either pivot and loop kill if not too wide, or I'd push (if SP, if LP then block or loop) wide to their FH next and dare them to attack it. Most that I face would either give a weak attack which I can punish with a counter or push relatively long, either way I'm in full attack mode and I'll be swinging with all my power at whatever comes back.

 

[Der_Echte]

I think with serves they can read well and if it is real short, they can exploit those wide angles you hate... I get that.

I may be a warped thinker in this sport, but if I want to wreck their mind, I show them heavy, get them used to it, pull the carpet out from under them, then go heavy and slow or hard topspin to win points overpowering them... win points and make them want to give up as they do not catch on to what I am changing and doing as it all looks the same.

That is the kind of mental warfare I like to do. I generally pull it off well vs the pips players.

Last time I face perennial 2000+ LP player Wang Wei, I did exactly that and by the middle of game 2, he was no longer interested in playing vs me. Did the same to James Chai at 888 teams too.

There are very good reasons for starting out heavy to the FH.

Maybe you are real good in another way to get sudden variation... that will do it too. For me, I rely on spin variation and placement to achieve what I want - to confuse them and keep them that way.

 

[Der_Echte]

Once I setup my short FH heavy underspin serve, those deep serves to their BH pips real sudden like become very effective setups for finishes by them.

In this regard, I am with you, but I prep my objective first before going there.