Banish long pips

[NetProphet]

The point of the post if I'm readying correctly is that someone who is out of shape has very little skills and uses weird equipment can easily beat an athletic, skilled player. That is a very negative view of the sport IMO.

How many other sports do you know that a player who is less skilled and worse physical shape can beat someone by simply using equipment? It completely changes the point of being a sport. Many sport sanctioning bodies purposely level the playing field by minimizing equipment impact. So that the most skilled and best trained player wins.

That's a rather narrow view of the sport.
It's not all about athletic ability at every level. At a certain level it is but we must be talking about low level if this pips guy can't be beaten.
The point of the game is to land the ball on the other side of the table.
If you're not able to do that often enough to beat a "Hideously outta shape, doesn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot" player then you're probably just not very good at table tennis and blaming the opponent.
I know plenty of fit young tennis players who would lose to some of our 65 yr old, barely move, no power, all placement club players because, even though they're fit, they don't have the shots or game savvy yet. If they blamed the opponent for hitting flat accurate no spin shots with great angles they'd be laughed out of the club!
Be humble and get better.
To complain that these overweight out of shape slow blade pimples players have an EQUIPMENT advantage, that's a good one! 😂

 

[Gtsnake]

That's a rather narrow view of the sport.
It's not all about athletic ability at every level. At a certain level it is but we must be talking about low level if this pips guy can't be beaten.
The point of the game is to land the ball on the other side of the table.
If you're not able to do that often enough to beat a "Hideously outta shape, doesn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot" player then you're probably just not very good at table tennis and blaming the opponent.
I know plenty of fit young tennis players who would lose to some of our 65 yr old, barely move, no power, all placement club players because, even though they're fit, they don't have the shots or game savvy yet. If they blamed the opponent for hitting flat accurate no spin shots with great angles they'd be laughed out of the club!
Be humble and get better.
To complain that these overweight out of shape slow blade pimples players have an EQUIPMENT advantage, that's a good one! 😂

You completely missed the point. You simplify the game to hit the ball on the opposite side. Duh..... but to play at higher levels it takes athleticism and skill which equipment would give you an advantage. You're trying to justify distorting the game to allow equipment advantage. Why not allow 1 inch pips then? Or racquets with strings instead of rubber. Or sponge thicknesses of 10mm+.

 

[blahness]

Unfortunately, this is a thing in the sport - pips/anti/etc... if they banned it tons of $$$ will flow out of the sport because in our society most $$$ is held by the old ppl, and catering to their needs/wants is pretty important for the sport.

But there are definitely weaknesses of pips/anti/etc... it is indeed quite a different game compared to playing inverted players.

 

[NetProphet]

You completely missed the point.

No. You've deliberately ignored what I actually said.

You simplify the game to hit the ball on the opposite side.

That's the actual aim of the game

.. but to play at higher levels it takes athleticism and skill which equipment would give you an advantage.

Yes, I said that. You're correct, athleticism and skill. So the OP doesn't have the skill to beat his "Hideously outta shape, doesn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot" opponent.
How is that the opponents fault?

You're trying to justify distorting the game

No I am not

to allow equipment advantage.

The equipment advantage is with the pips player, really that's your view on this?
The OP uses $130 of K3 Hybrid rubber and the pips player has the equipment advantage 😂

Why not allow 1 inch pips then? Or racquets with strings instead of rubber. Or sponge thicknesses of 10mm+.

Why not use a racket in each hand or any other rubbish you can think of?
Pips were around long before all of this fancy ass inverted rubber dude.
The rules are there for all of us. We can use pips if we want. If you prefer inverted then ok, play inverted but don't complain if you can't use your fancy Amultart Hyabusa, Skyline Boosted Rakza Z to spin V lowly pips wielded by an overweight out of condition gentleman who can't move as fast as you.

It's an absolute BS argument put forward by losers who cannot just admit their flaws and failings.
It hurts some people to have the mirror held up like that and have to see shortcomings in their game. Some accept it as a challenge to improve but other cannot accept and instead turn to blaming and moaning and rubbish about how the game has to be played with topspin bla bla and overweight people should play properly and take their 0-11, 0-11, 0-11 cos they suck with inverted and aren't fit (pun intended) to share a table with them. 🙄
It's a stance that's elitist, narcissistic, exclusionary, self serving and pathetic and I'm always surprised when anyone defends it.

 

[Gtsnake]

No. You've deliberately ignored what I actually said.

That's the actual aim of the game

Yes, I said that. You're correct, athleticism and skill. So the OP doesn't have the skill to beat his "Hideously outta shape, doesn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot" opponent.
How is that the opponents fault?

No I am not

The equipment advantage is with the pips player, really that's your view on this?
The OP uses $130 of K3 Hybrid rubber and the pips player has the equipment advantage 😂

Why not use a racket in each hand or any other rubbish you can think of?
Pips were around long before all of this fancy ass inverted rubber dude.
The rules are there for all of us. We can use pips if we want. If you prefer inverted then ok, play inverted but don't complain if you can't use your fancy Amultart Hyabusa, Skyline Boosted Rakza Z to spin V lowly pips wielded by an overweight out of condition gentleman who can't move as fast as you.

It's an absolute BS argument put forward by losers who cannot just admit their flaws and failings.
It hurts some people to have the mirror held up like that and have to see shortcomings in their game that they simply cannot accept so instead they turn to blaming and moaning and the rubbish about how the game has to be played with topspin bla bla bla and overweight people should play properly and take their 0-11, 0-11, 0-11 cos they suck with inverted and aren't fit (pun intended) to share a table with them. 🙄
It's a stance that's so elitist, narcissistic, exclusionary, self serving and pathetic that I'm always surprised when anyone defends it.

Thanks for the personal attacks. I wonder if the moderators care at all.

 

[NetProphet]

Thanks for the personal attacks. I wonder if the moderators care at all.

There are no personal attacks there dude, I don't know you personally, this is a general opinion I hold for all people who complain about the tools or the referee or the conditions etc etc etc when they lose.
We all know the rules before we start out so why complain about them when losing?
I think the OPs post was half serious, half joking but he indicates he gave up (happily lost just to exit the joyless experience) to leave the table.
That's not sporting and I can't imagine the opponent felt much joy either.
If you want to side with that type of behaviour then ok but I think it's unsporting, disrespectful and childish 🤷
Over

 

[tzifos]

This discussion again. It is not about winning or losing, it is about the joy. Playing an opponent like the one described isn't particularly fun even if you win.
Perhaps a ban is too much, but it would be nice with non-pips-tournaments.

Ban Gionis! And Filus too!!!

 

[turbozed]

I can see both sides of the argument. I didn't encounter pips on the regular until a couple months ago when I finally found an air conditioned (barely) club in Vietnam with a good amount of old men and women using pips and exclusively using illegal serves.

So losing to these people who otherwise have zero footwork and awful strokes has been a regular experience recently.

Yes it feels like a completely different game when the ball does the opposite to what you expect. Yes it makes the sport a bit silly as fun dynamic rallies are completely replaced by errors and you're running around sending the ball flying over the the table and into the net. It looks particularly embarrassing since the opponent is looking dominant by standing there stationary while you're frantically moving and second guessing everything.

It's also something I know these old people really enjoy. With their bad knees and bad backs and poor health they are beating people a lot younger and fit than them.

For those that really want to get good at the game, this is a great opportunity to understand spin and tactics at a higher level. If you think of these people as gatekeepers to the next level, it makes things a bit more palatable. If you can't beat cannon rushers, you'll never get to the next level in Starcraft. If you can't handle cheese, you'll never be great at Street Fighter.

At the same time, almost none of us are going to be pros. Reaching a level to beat pips players has no bearing on our lives unless we make it a point to get really good at table tennis. From what I've been reading here, some people suggest that the reasonable decent person who decides to switch to long pips to quickly make a huge jump to get to a 1600 or 1700 level.

So to just "get good" at playing against pips you'd need to first have access to a club with a good amount of pips players, then spend a lot of time and energy playing a very frustrating style and failing a lot at the time when you're still trying to understand and perform well at the double inverted game.

The whole idea that it's a personal failing not to invest your precious free time and mental/physical energy doing that is a bit absurd. This is a game and we should be enjoying our time on the table. If this were a computer game that had a rule or exploit that made the game not fun any more for a large portion of the user base, it would get completely nerfed or completely patched out. If the developer were to tell it's users "it's just part of the game, stop whining and just spend a year or so playing against it and get good" then I'd suspect it'd be the last game they ever made.

Applying these standards to table tennis is not crazy. But as was mentioned before TT has to cater to legacy players and the long history of the sport. It's not a new sport like pickleball that is currently figuring out what material is appropriate to optimize for enjoyability in order to become more popular and profitable. Pickleball is growing at an unbelievable pace while TT is continuing to die a slow death, however. So that might be a good indicator of what most people in the world care about when it comes to hobby sports.

In the end, I will be using every opportunity I can to play pips players. But I also admit that I'm a bit of a masochist with a lot of free time on my hands. I'm under no illusions that this makes me mentally stronger than people who don't want to go down the same path. I'm sure those people would consider it a mental weakness to invest so much time in a sport that maybe nobody may care about in the future unless I was actually enjoying every single second of it.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Recently played a long pips player....

Hideously outta shape, didn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot .... the most joyless futile experience of my year thus far....I happily lost 11-1 - 11-1 - 11-3 just to exit the anticipated joyless experience...if you cannot play the game - indeed any sport that was clear from his stature (being polite) please pop to butlins find the nearest dartboard and leave this beautiful game in peace...

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thanks for the personal attacks. I wonder if the moderators care at all.

If you read what he said, there really actually are no personal attacks. It is true that you may view what Sims is saying as rude. He is being a bit aggressive with what he is saying, but they are all general comments about a class of people who he views as complaining. None of the comments mention you or are directed at you as Sims has pointed out.

He could have said the same thing diplomatically. But people on the forum all have different ways of responding in these kinds of discussions. But your comments directly about something he said:

"You simplify the game to hit the ball on the opposite side. Duh....."

That is you directly mocking him and it is pretty aggressive and quite close to actually being a personal attack. So.....

It is worth debating civilly. I would say that to both of you. The discourse can be worthwhile. But, try to stay as civil as possible please. And if you have actually directly mocked someone else, it would be better not to accuse them of something you have actually done and they have not.

 

[Peter93]

The point of the post if I'm readying correctly is that someone who is out of shape has very little skills and uses weird equipment can easily beat an athletic, skilled player. That is a very negative view of the sport IMO.

How many other sports do you know that a player who is less skilled and worse physical shape can beat someone by simply using equipment? It completely changes the point of being a sport. Many sport sanctioning bodies purposely level the playing field by minimizing equipment impact. So that the most skilled and best trained player wins.

If you are losing to long pips players you are clearly neither of those things.

 

[Kopp]

.. someone who is out of shape has very little skills and uses weird equipment can easily beat an athletic, skilled player.

How can an athletic & skilled player is beaten by an out of shape & very little skills player? "Logically" speaking this never happen. And, LP isn't weird at all. Some people just not used playing against LP yet, including me.

IMO, Nittaku Tenaly is weirder than LP. If I could beat someone with this weird blade because the weird shape helps me generating more spin than a nornal blade, should this blade be banned?

... Many sport sanctioning bodies purposely level the playing field by minimizing equipment impact.

Agree, that's including ITTF.

 

[NoSpin]

I wonder if the guys talking about equipment "advantage" of long pips and how its bad for the sport have looked at top100 male players even once. Did you find many LP players there?

 

[Amayzde]

Recently played a long pips player....

Hideously outta shape, didn't move, no forehand, one backhand shot .... the most joyless futile experience of my year thus far....I happily lost 11-1 - 11-1 - 11-3 just to exit the anticipated joyless experience...if you cannot play the game - indeed any sport that was clear from his stature (being polite) please pop to butlins find the nearest dartboard and leave this beautiful game in peace...

Sorry to say this, but if you can't beat a player like that, you are equally as bad at the game...

Its really not that hard to play against pimples, but yeah it is different. So if you only ever played against players that play inverted, then playing against long pimples is going to be uncomfortable.

And as someone that occasionally plays with long pimples for the fun of it. I realised that when you play against someone that knows how to play against pimples, you have to do more then keep the ball on the table. Or else you will end up as 'cannon food' as we call it in Dutch.

 

[kapahoo]

There could be non-pips-class/division in some tournaments. Just like there are other kinds of divisions (age, gender, rating...). No need to completely ban but I think many would appreciate that.
For practice sessions it is a bit harder. You can't just ignore playing club- and team-mates with pips without being a bully. How to avoid them there is more of a social skill. Also, some of them are nice guys, even if they have lazy equipment.

 

[Yuomay]

I personally don’t think that LP is an unfair advantage.
The only thing I find deeply disturbing about them is the “wobbly” ball. I’ve Yet to discover how to prevent them.

 

[NetProphet]

If you read what he said, there really actually are no personal attacks. It is true that you may view what Sims is saying as rude. He is being a bit aggressive with what he is saying, but they are all general comments about a class of people who he views as complaining. None of the comments mention you or are directed at you as Sims has pointed out.

He could have said the same thing diplomatically. But people on the forum all have different ways of responding in these kinds of discussions. But your comments directly about something he said:

"You simplify the game to hit the ball on the opposite side. Duh....."

That is you directly mocking him and it is pretty aggressive and quite close to actually being a personal attack. So.....

It is worth debating civilly. I would say that to both of you. The discourse can be worthwhile. But, try to stay as civil as possible please. And if you have actually directly mocked someone else, it would be better not to accuse them of something you have actually done and they have not.

That's fair enough, I might have been a bit over the top in my comeback....
My issue really is the attitude I see towards pips players. I've seen and felt animosity towards them at tournament halls that really brings a bad atmosphere to things. Elitist and sonbbish, players with their $500 rackets moaning cos someones Grandad with $50 pips just knocked them out so they're badmouthing and talking behind the backs (shouldn't be allowed, they shouldn't be here etc) and then all nicey to their face, insincere duplicity.
The idea that they
(a) are cheating, or
(b) shouldn't be there but you should......
Nah, these aren't viewpoints I have time for. To label them cheats or undeserving is just too low.

When I read people explaining (or complaining) about the challenge of pips I understand it but the argument that they should be banned does bother me. I'm more the guy that would tease while laughing about it and making sure I treat them in a way that they are as welcome as I want to be.
So yeah, this probably poked a nerve.

 

[merlin el mago]

The point of the post if I'm readying correctly is that someone who is out of shape has very little skills and uses weird equipment can easily beat an athletic, skilled player. That is a very negative view of the sport IMO.

How many other sports do you know that a player who is less skilled and worse physical shape can beat someone by simply using equipment? It completely changes the point of being a sport. Many sport sanctioning bodies purposely level the playing field by minimizing equipment impact. So that the most skilled and best trained player wins.

It seems not enough skilled....

 

[netdriver]

long pips and short pips are fine

but medium pips are the thing of the devil

 

[merlin el mago]

When you play against a very good player disruption can't do points.

The best set up is always two inverted rubbers.

But the most important things isn't the blade or rubbers, is the player skills.

When young I used two inverted rubbers with speed glue and never or very few times I lost with defensive players.

What about the Booster??