Basic advice on knowing spin from long pips?

[Michael Zhuang]

He is beating his untrained opponents up. So that's quite unfair. But they also want to get the big paycheck. Pro wrestling largely falls under the same category, but I think the balance of power is much more tilted towards the corporations who run the shows.

You don't need to stop people from paying to watch it. You can just levy extra taxes on the beneficiaries of the industry: Mayweather, the promotional companies, the TV networks. Ok, you wanna exploit people to watch 2 old guys fight? Fine we won't shut down the event, but you can't make excessive profit by exploiting the consumers so we will have special tax for your industry. Hopefully use the tax for a good purpose.

 

[Dominikk85]

Is there any country that limits the ways in which multimillionaires and billionaires can legally spend their money?

BTW the issue with billionaires (if you are a socialist) is not the money they spend but the money they save. It's actually a good thing if billionaires have a luxury life and spend lots of money because it helps economy and pays other people.

What is bad is if billionaires accumulate a lot of money, stocks or real estate and just do nothing with it as that money is kinda "lost" (for some time).

So technically a billionaire wasting a lot of money are doing more for society than guys who just save their money.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

BTW the issue with billionaires (if you are a socialist) is not the money they spend but the money they save. It's actually a good thing if billionaires have a luxury life and spend lots of money because it helps economy and pays other people.

What is bad is if billionaires accumulate a lot of money, stocks or real estate and just do nothing with it as that money is kinda "lost" (for some time).

So technically a billionaire wasting a lot of money are doing more for society than guys who just save their money.

Actually this is not correct. Billionaires save their money by buying productive assets as equity or debt. Both asset classes are used to fund real business projects and investment.

Now real estate is kinda true, but it is much more complicated calculus.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Also if they spend money on luxury items, it's not necessarily "good for the economy". Again, they are buying a high priced product with no genuine benefit to society. Sure, there are some retail jobs being provided.

But just as a thought experiment, should we pollute the environment more so that we have more cleanup jobs?

Should we have more people addicted to drugs so we can get healthcare jobs?

 

[brokenball]

I am surprised USDC has let this thread get so far off topic and into politics.

I play with long pips, push blocker style from time to time. My practice partners are not fooled anymore.
I will also was willing to play against LP player at the club before covid. It just takes experience. LPs are different from inverted and that is what gives so many inexperienced LP opponents lose. My simple advice it so loop one then push the next when hitting to the LPs. You need to think about what you hit that last time to the LP so you know what is coming back. This is all predictable. After the ball leaves the paddle, it doesn't care what hit it. So don't let yourself be psyched out.

 

[Der_Echte]

I completely agree with you that looping with underspin is less damaging to the rubber than looping against the spin. That is not the point I am making.

I am saying that playing against LP, 99% of loops (with the spin and against the spin) are with the FH. And probably 75% of all shots in general are with the FH. This causes the FH rubber and BH rubber to wear out at different rates, which I don't like.

Playing against inverted rubber is more balanced wear and tear.

A good, consistent BH loop vs underspin is a tonic. Look at how Primorac played vs Joo Sae Hyuk late in his career when Primorac waz over 40... dude RIPPED JSH a new hole with his BH vs the chop. made Kreanga right proud did Primorac.


This can be done at the amateur level too is you are setup. Saves some footwork and wear and tear on the knees too.

 

[Wakkibatty]

Getting back to the original question, the link below is an older one, but it's still an excellent primer for beginner / intermediate players on how to handle long pips:

https://gregsttpages.com/archives/equipment/rubbers/how-long-pips-really-work/#more-11

Greg is one of the best players in our state over the last 30 years. He knows his stuff, and the explanation here is extremely straight forwards.

 

[vvk1]

Getting back to the original question, the link below is an older one, but it's still an excellent primer for beginner / intermediate players on how to handle long pips:

https://gregsttpages.com/archives/equipment/rubbers/how-long-pips-really-work/#more-11

Greg is one of the best players in our state over the last 30 years. He knows his stuff, and the explanation here is extremely straight forwards.

That link was literally in the first reply to the OP, lol.

 

[Wakkibatty]

ROFL...

Oh well... Repeated for good measure then 😂😂
​​​​​​(How embarrassing! 🤣🤣)

 

[James Z]

Getting back to the original question, the link below is an older one, but it's still an excellent primer for beginner / intermediate players on how to handle long pips:

https://gregsttpages.com/archives/equipment/rubbers/how-long-pips-really-work/#more-11

Greg is one of the best players in our state over the last 30 years. He knows his stuff, and the explanation here is extremely straight forwards.Greg

Greg used to run the About.com froum for tabletennis with Sean O'Neill .
He does obviously understand the technical aspects of long pips but has repeatedly refused to accept the ITTF's corruption & the political aspect of table tennis, mayebe because one of his parody videos showed that he lacks accurate knowledge of the history of tabletennis related to long pips.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Well following Carl's advice, I practiced about 30 minutes just hitting my backhand against another guy's LP. Sometimes alternating between looping and pushing, sometimes hitting consecutive loops. During practice, I was starting to feel the rhythm of how the spin comes off the LP.

But when we started playing a game, all the practice went out the window. My mind went totally blank and I totally forgot what type of spin is coming off the LP. During game, its' too fast and I can't keep up with the chaos. Eventually I found one little pattern that kinda worked for me. I serve heavy underspin to the LP, and just assumed the return shot would be topspin and just punched it hard. If that shot was returned, I assumed it's underspin and looped it hard.

In other news, I played a two wing looper, I think 2050 or 2100 level. I lost 2 - 3 games, so I guess that's not bad. I'm getting closer on points, but the reality is that during the game I felt like I had my foot on full throttle, and I had to play incredible winning shots just to keep pace with him. I felt like he's just a little better in every aspect of the game, and there was really no single pattern or way for me to get an advantage. A lot of times I walk away from a match thinking "this is the one major issue I had", but not with this guy. There wasn't one single area, but just a little bit in every area.

 

[ttarc]

A good, consistent BH loop vs underspin is a tonic. Look at how Primorac played vs Joo Sae Hyuk late in his career when Primorac waz over 40... dude RIPPED JSH a new hole with his BH vs the chop. made Kreanga right proud did Primorac.


This can be done at the amateur level too is you are setup. Saves some footwork and wear and tear on the knees too.

What's also interesting is that Kreanga plays with a soft BH rubber (T05FX) and Patrick Decker, the attacker in the 3. Bundesliga match, also plays soft rubbers (Joola Samba+ on a Primorac Carbon)

 

[OldUser]

LP players are not a problem for me, well until they are ranked 200 to 300 points higher than me for sure, I use the "flat mode" on the LP side: flat no spin serve, flat attack, no spin hidden pushes, no spin = no problem hahaha

 

[Lula]

Just read the first page of the thread. Need to know what kind of long pimples.

Close to frictionless, which many use close to the table, will reverse the spin like other have said.

Long pimples with more grip, which many use further away from the table, can also create spin so i would say that you can not use the rule that the spin reverse.

Remember to read the spin of the ball!

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Just read the first page of the thread. Need to know what kind of long pimples.

Close to frictionless, which many use close to the table, will reverse the spin like other have said.

Long pimples with more grip, which many use further away from the table, can also create spin so i would say that you can not use the rule that the spin reverse.

Remember to read the spin of the ball!

2 of the guys I see use Tibhar Grass and Victas (maybe Curl?) What kind of friction are these rubbers?

I also ordered a sheet of Yinhe Neptune just to help me practice against LP. What kind of friction is this?

 

[OldUser]

"Re-uping" this thread

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Check out my new LP setup. I paid $5 for a sheet of Yinhe Neptune LP and put it on a old Butterfly Cutlass defensive blade.

I got this setup 1) because I had the old Cutlass blade just lying around doing nothing and 2) to give to my practice partner to help me practice against LP's crazy spin.

Actually I think Carl's advice is very right, that practice against LP actually improves your all around game even when you go back to playing inverted rubbers. LP produces really strange balls and forces you to read the spin properly and deal with no-spin and half-spin balls.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Well today was 1st day i got to test out the LP defensive racket. As I expected, i tested it on some 16-1700 type players and totally dominated them.

My strategy was just to move over and hit with the LP as much as i can and never loop or attack a ball.

Those guys basically had no idea how to rally with the LP and poured on the unforced errors.errors
i also practiced myself against the LP, and i feel my loop getting better.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well today was 1st day i got to test out the LP defensive racket. As I expected, i tested it on some 16-1700 type players and totally dominated them.

My strategy was just to move over and hit with the LP as much as i can and never loop or attack a ball.

Those guys basically had no idea how to rally with the LP and poured on the unforced errors.errors
i also practiced myself against the LP, and i feel my loop getting better.

Also worth knowing, playing with them will help you with getting to understand more about some of how they work. You are now doing plenty of things that will help you improve faster.

 

[NextLevel]

In general, the story of pimples is really a story of grip. The story of learning to play pips is really a story of adaptation. I wrote an article about it a long time ago on mytt - it probably wasn't 100% accurate, but it was my attempt at a universal philosophical approach to rubber surfaces in general.

The primary quality of inverted rubber with sponge is that it is able to stop just about every amount of spin if it is held at a closed angle relative to the spin equator (where the ball is spinning). This is primarily because of the grip and the sponge. The sponge helps it cushion impacts and the grip/pips help stop the spin. However with less grippy, pip configurations (usually longer and larger pips, less tacky or smoother surface, thinner and less dynamic/elastic sponge), the ability of the rubber to stop spin reduces and spin rotating beyond a certain spin/speed threshold starts to "pass through" the rubber, so to speak.

This explains why not all inverted rubbers play the same (if they do to you, it is largely because you are using rubbers in roughly the same range of performance, which most modern rubbers are but differences are noticeable to a player with reasonably standard technique) and of course, not all pips play the same either. When an LP has no sponge, it must almost always invert spin, though the pips do allow it to kill spin somewhat if they are really long as they have a cushioning effect themselves. When there is sponge, there is some room to cushion impact, and this must be balanced against the level of grippyness of the pips.

The biggest issue that most people face when playing against pips is not so much about the pips per se - it is because they have never been trained per se to practice seriously adapting to the degree that pips force you too since they maybe practiced looping backspin. But once they have practiced seriously adapting and they build good spin strokes on both sides, they realize that the key to playing pips is to find balls they can read. Those can come off the serve, those can come from playing strokes and seeing what it takes to spin the ball on the table. If you learn to topspin a variety of balls with various spins, then you get a good idea of how to adapt your stroke to various balls. But just as importantly, you learn how to use your misses to calibrate how you should adapt. It is this second part that most players who have never seriously practiced against pips miss. Their stroke range is very narrow because they have played inverted all the time. Pips expand that range. Looping pips chopblocks twice/thrice in a row often take their strokes to places they never thought possible.

As long as you continue to adapt back and forth between pips and topspin, usually, the overall impact on your stroke gets better. Playing one or the other exclusively isn't as valuable as continually forcing yourself to adapt.