BB's thread about higher frequency blades being faster.

[brokenball]

After a point the extra frequency doesn't help. However I have a high speed video of my toxic hard bat being hit by a TT ball. It is clear the ball pushes or deforms the blade and the ball bounces back before the toxic 5 blade can rebound to help push the ball back. All the energy the ball imparts on the blade is lost.

https://deltamotion.com/peter/TT/Toxic%205%20in%20Vise.mp4

What needs to happen for optimal speed is for the ball to push the toxic 5 back then the toxic 5 pushes the ball back. This means that some of the energy on the toxic 5 is being returned to the ball as it pushes the ball back. Once the ball leaves the paddle, any vibration in the paddle is lost energy.
The toxic 5 blade has a very low frequency of vibration and is very slow and discontinued
This is a too slow example.

An important thing to remember is that any motion/vibration in the paddle after the ball leaves the rubber is wasted energy.

So what if the paddle has a frequency of 1000 Hz?
In this case a complete cycle is 1 millisecond = 0.001 second.
A half cycle where the paddle is deformed and springs back is 1/2 a millisecond.
This would be optimal if the contact time is also 1/2 millisecond because the blade would be pushed back by the ball for the first quarter millisecond and then the blade would push the ball back during most of the second quarter of a millisecond. The longer the blade can keep the rubber in contact with the ball the more energy it can return to the ball.

So why not have very stiff blades with very high frequencies?

The problem here is that the ball only impacts with so much energy. Some is absorbed by the ball, some by the rubber and a little by the blade. However very stiff high frequency blades will have very low amplitudes of vibration because the energy in the blade is proportional the Amp((2*PI*Hz)^2 so the amplitude decreases very quickly as the frequency increases. If the amplitude is small, the blade will not be able to push the ball on the rebound if at all.

In short, there is such a thing as blades with too low a frequency and too high. Blades with frequencies over 1000 Hz are not going to be much different from each other because they don't push the ball back in phase with the ball and rubber decompressing and the amplitudes of vibration will be too small.

 

[Lazer]

And still the higher frequency blades are usually faster than low frequency ones…🤣🤣🤣

Cheers
L-zr

 

[NextLevel]

And still the higher frequency blades are usually faster than low frequency ones…🤣🤣🤣

Cheers
L-zr

At this point, it is just clickbait.

https://butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf

On the y-axis is reaction, which is a measure of the blade speed/rebound. On the x-axis is vibration, which is a measure of frequency. While the correlation is not perfect, it is clearly positive and significant.

But it was just clickbait, I don't think brokenball is the same as brokenbrain.

 

[brokenball]

And still the higher frequency blades are usually faster than low frequency ones…🤣🤣🤣

Cheers
L-zr

You are using the "usually" which is an ambiguous word: So when are higher frequency blades not faster?

Stop repeating forum stuff that no one can justify. The problem is that TT people don't really think about it. They just assume a higher frequency blade is faster WITHOUT THINKING! High frequency blades are best, assuming more speed is desired, only if they can return more energy to the ball by staying in contact longer.

Read what I said, there is too slow and too fast. Too fast is like diving off a spring board that is not tuned to your weight. You can adjust the fulcrum of the spring board so it is very stiff and vibrates at a very high velocity but it will not be optimal for you. What you want to to be able to jump up then land on the spring board depressing it. You want the spring board to be pushing you up as you extend your legs. A spring board that it too stiff will not depress as much and will start moving up out of sync with your leg extension. The same thing applies to TT only now there are 3 "springs", the ball, the rubber and the blade.

A trampoline is the same. Springs can be added more connected crosswise to make the trampoline stiffer for heavier jumpers. In this case the trampoline will be too hard/stiff for little kids.

There is too much and too little. What works best is somewhere in between. That is where preferences come in.

 

[Lazer]

At this point, it is just clickbait.

https://butterflyonline.com/Templates/BladeSpecifications.pdf

On the y-axis is reaction, which is a measure of the blade speed/rebound. On the x-axis is vibration, which is a measure of frequency. While the correlation is not perfect, it is clearly positive and significant.

But it was just clickbait, I don't think brokenball is the same as brokenbrain.

I don’t bother to check his links or yours.

 

[Lazer]

You are using the weasel word "usually". ( sorry weasels ) So when are higher frequency blades not faster?

Stop repeating forum crap that no one can justify. The problem is that TT people don't really think about it. They just assume a higher frequency blade is faster WITHOUT THINKING! High frequency blades are best, assuming more speed is desired, only if they can return more energy to the ball by staying in contact longer.

Read what I said, there is too slow and too fast. Too fast is like diving off a spring board that is not tuned to your weight. You can adjust the fulcrum of the spring board so it is very stiff and vibrates at a very high velocity but it will not be optimal for you. What you want to to be able to jump up then land on the spring board depressing it. You want the spring board to be pushing you up as you extend your legs. A spring board that it too stiff will not depress as much and will start moving up out of sync with your leg extension. The same thing applies to TT only now there are 3 "springs", the ball, the rubber and the blade.

A trampoline is the same. Springs can be added more connected crosswise to make the trampoline stiffer for heavier jumpers. In this case the trampoline will be too hard/stiff for little kids.

There is too much and too little. What works best is somewhere in between. That is where preferences come in.

Sorry for not bothering to read your entire post, but you should know by now that everything is not black and white and BTW, the control rating is useful…

 

[NextLevel]

I don’t bother to check his links or yours.

That's fair, it's a forum, even responses to you are often read by other people.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Using derogatory terms like “weasel” to refer to TTDaily members can have repercussions.

 

[Der_Echte]

A compact, efficient delivery of force to the ball is way more valuable than an increase in frequecy spec of the blade.

I have a relatively low frequency blade (as compared to the modern missile launchers) and a real soft rubber (42-ish on BH) and when I crack that backhand it rivals or exceeds those missile launchers.
There are other factors more important... and it is good to discuss those technical technique things... but 99 percent of the forum would rather start another H3 boosting thread, drool over a top CNT player, or make a useless list of dream rubbers...

...sum of this forum crowd would sooner get a colon cleansing with a Viking Mace dipped in H2SO4 before they discuss how to improve their technique and actually get better in this sport.

 

[NextLevel]

I didn't call you brokenbrain, sorry if you take offense. I can remove the reference, I really didn't believe you were seriously disputing that people had a good basis for correlating frequency and blade speed, I thought you were just having fun with insulting people, though your main point that the correlation isn't perfect and you can design stiffer and slower blades is valid.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

NOT FAIR! I apologized to the weasel!

Are you again calling someone a weasel?

 

[brokenball]

Are you again calling someone a weasel

NO! Haven't you ever heard the term weasel words? LOOK IT UP! It means to be ambiguous. Actually, I think weasel, stouts, minks, ferrets and such are pretty cool creatures. They don't deserve to be used in an such a way.
That is why I said ( sorry weasels ).
The forum is getting to be so WOKE!

So when

And still the higher frequency blades are usually faster than low frequency ones

Usually? I agree that blades with a higher frequency that my Toxic 5 will be faster but there is a limit.
So when are higher frequency blades not faster? What makes a blade fast?
It isn't the frequency alone. What about the amplitude?

 

[Lazer]

So when are higher frequency blades not faster? What makes a blade fast?
It isn't the frequency alone. What about the amplitude?

Absolutely , but that’s much harder to measure, where frequency measurement is very easy. Get it in your head that nobody is saying anything different !!!

 

[TackyForehand]

After a point the extra frequency doesn't help. However I have a high speed video of my toxic hard bat being hit by a TT ball. It is clear the ball pushes or deforms the blade and the ball bounces back before the toxic 5 blade can rebound to help push the ball back. All the energy the ball imparts on the blade is lost.

https://deltamotion.com/peter/TT/Toxic%205%20in%20Vise.mp4

What needs to happen for optimal speed is for the ball to push the toxic 5 back then the toxic 5 pushes the ball back. This means that some of the energy on the toxic 5 is being returned to the ball as it pushes the ball back. Once the ball leaves the paddle, any vibration in the paddle is lost energy.
The toxic 5 blade has a very low frequency of vibration and is very slow and discontinued
This is a too slow example.

An important thing to remember is that any motion/vibration in the paddle after the ball leaves the rubber is wasted energy.

So what if the paddle has a frequency of 1000 Hz?
In this case a complete cycle is 1 millisecond = 0.001 second.
A half cycle where the paddle is deformed and springs back is 1/2 a millisecond.
This would be optimal if the contact time is also 1/2 millisecond because the blade would be pushed back by the ball for the first quarter millisecond and then the blade would push the ball back during most of the second quarter of a millisecond. The longer the blade can keep the rubber in contact with the ball the more energy it can return to the ball.

So why not have very stiff blades with very high frequencies?

The problem here is that the ball only impacts with so much energy. Some is absorbed by the ball, some by the rubber and a little by the blade. However very stiff high frequency blades will have very low amplitudes of vibration because the energy in the blade is proportional the Amp((2*PI*Hz)^2 so the amplitude decreases very quickly as the frequency increases. If the amplitude is small, the blade will not be able to push the ball on the rebound if at all.

In short, there is such a thing as blades with too low a frequency and too high. Blades with frequencies over 1000 Hz are not going to be much different from each other because they don't push the ball back in phase with the ball and rubber decompressing and the amplitudes of vibration will be too small.

This makes a lot of sense. Higher frequency blades will require higher impact force to achieve the same dwell,thus rebound, as lower frequency blades. Explains why stiff blades often feel dead with low power, and why flexible blades feel easier to use. For ideal energy transfer, it would be best to use a blade that matches your power level. Therefore the extra frequency does help for those who can keep up.

 

[hipnotic]

It amazes me that, for such a smart guy, you still fail to comprehend some very basic concepts...

You like to ask questions and make others think, so let me ask you you a few questions:

It is clear the ball pushes or deforms the blade and the ball bounces back before the toxic 5

Why and how does it deform?

What is the frequency we read?

What variables can we change in the composition of a blade to change the frequency?

Why do we have blades with the same composition but with different frequency?

 

[Zwill]

There is a myth that pre-made paddles in Tesco/Wallmart are not much different than what professionals use.

 

[brokenball]

It amazes me that, for such a smart guy, you still fail to comprehend some very basic concepts...

You like to ask questions and make others think, so let me ask you you a few questions:


Why and how does it deform?

What is the frequency we read?

What variables can we change in the composition of a blade to change the frequency?

Why do we have blades with the same composition but with different frequency?

Did you see the video of the balls hitting the Toxic 5 paddle? The paddle absorbs the energy of impact. Since it is a hard bat there is no sponge to absorb energy. So only the blade, the pips and the ball absorb energy.
It is easy to see the blade deform due to the impact. It is easy to see the vibrations. One can count the number of frames it takes to make one cycle. The video was recorded at 2000 FPS.
The Toxic 5 is made of Willow wood.
I have video of balls hitting my Firewall+. One can't see any vibrations. The Firewall+ is made mostly of balsa but it is 9mm thick. Also the vibrations are dampened because of the rubber on it.
Thickness plays a part in the frequency of vibrations.
I believe the Toxic 3 was only a 3 ply blade whereas my Toxic 5 is a 5 ply blade. The Toxic 3 was slower yet..

 

[brokenball]

This makes a lot of sense. Higher frequency blades will require higher impact force to achieve the same dwell,thus rebound, as lower frequency blades. Explains why stiff blades often feel dead with low power, and why flexible blades feel easier to use. For ideal energy transfer, it would be best to use a blade that matches your power level. Therefore the extra frequency does help for those who can keep up.

The higher the impact speed the shorter the dwell time. A stiffer blade will not absorb much energy. That is one reason why it is faster. After the blades become so stiff it makes little difference because they won't or don't absorb much energy. There is a limit. Also, the rubber dampens the frequency of vibrations and reduces the frequency.
There are 3 things involved here. There is the amplitude, the frequency and the dampening. Blades with more damping will also return less energy to the ball.

 

[brokenball]

Absolutely , but that’s much harder to measure, where frequency measurement is very easy. Get it in your head that nobody is saying anything different !!!

But if the amplitude is small then it does little to push the ball back. It must also push the ball back in phase with the rubber and the ball.

 

[Lazer]

Harder material vibrates in higher frequencies and bends less. I think it’s a matter of loosing less energy by bending less.

Cheers
L-zr