BB's thread about higher frequency blades being faster.

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Asked and answered.
Meanwhile you don't answer my questions so why should I even bother.
You you really think a 1200 Hz paddle is 33% faster than a 1500 Hz paddle? Anybody?
Can you post a link to where you answered the questions? It seems no one can find your answers yet you claim you wrote them.

Can you point out where I said that a 1200Hz paddle is 33% faster than a 1500Hz paddle so people can understand where you got that from? I usually don't find it worth debating people who make up stuff to win debates. I will leave answering your questions to people who do.
 
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No I think the 1500 hz BLADE is faster than a 1300 hz but you can not quantify by just looking at the frequency. The frequency is a result of the harness stiffness. Harder and stiffer = less energy lost. This assertion works for most TT blades.

Cheers
L-zr
 
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Asked and answered.
No, you haven't answered, if that was your answer then you are even worse than I thought...

Finally a good question. The board's fulcrum needs to be adjusted or "tuned" to the weight of the diver obviously.
What do you think will happen if the board is too stiff or too loose. The same goes for the trampoline.
It's not a good question, it's pretty basic actually, you just like it because it's the only one you know the answer to. But since you answered correctly, does that mean you need to calibrate your bat in every type of impact to be in phase with the ball, depending on the ball's velocity? (you can actually, to some extent, @Der_Echte loves to talk about this with the grip pressure and position). Or does that mean your analogy only relates to one, very specific, type of impact?

I was kinda hoping that you would know some of these answers, it would save me a lot of writing, but instead you are confusing concepts and making definite claims based on false premises. The funny part is that you are actually sort of right, frequency doesn't matter that much, but not for the reasons you think.

But before I answer my own questions, have you ever actually played with a 1500Hz (or more) blade? It's just that, the speed difference is so obvious that even my grandmother who has never picked up a TT bat in her life would perceive the difference.
 
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Why and how does it deform?
Look at the Toxic 5 video. The paddle deforms because is absorbs a lot of the energy from the impact.

[/quote]
What is the frequency we read?
[/quote]
This is not a clear question. One can measure the fundamental and harmonics of the fundamental. I REPEAT! The frequencies can be measured using an accelerometer, recording the frequency profile and then performing an FFT on it to get all the frequencies and their relative strengths.
Do you know what a FFT is?

What variables can we change in the composition of a blade to change the frequency?
Basically the density and thickness of the wood.

Why do we have blades with the same composition but with different frequency?
Different thicknesses and sizes.

Oh, and one more for you. If you bounce the ball on a concrete slab it bounces much more than on the blade. Is the slab in phase with the ball?
That is because concrete doesn't absorb much if any energy whereas a blade will if held in a vise. Now only the ball absorbs energy and returns it. Do you know what the COR of a TT ball on a steel plate is? That is how TT balls are checked. If the COR of a ball is 0.7 ( not the right number ) then the COR of the paddle must be lower than that of the COR of the TT ball alone.
If the blade does absorb energy and doesn't push the ball out in phase like in the Toxic 5 video then all the energy absorbed is lost.

So is a 2000 Hz blade faster than a 1500 Hz blade? Why?
Just because it frequency is higher?

By the time you put rubber on the blade the frequency will be much lower.

You really need to study mass, spring and damping. What makes this case more difficult is that there really is 3 springs in series, the ball, rubber and the blade.
 
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hipnotic:

If you bounce the ball on a concrete slab it bounces much more than on the blade.

That is because concrete doesn't absorb much if any energy whereas a blade will if held in a vise. Now only the ball absorbs energy and returns it.

So is a 2000 Hz blade faster than a 1500 Hz blade? Why?
Just because it frequency is higher?

Haven't you answered your own question? Higher frequency correlates with stiffness. A stiffer blade absorbs less energy, and so the ball absorbs more energy. More compression of the ball on contact (or the ball and the rubber), more decompression, more kinetic energy, faster blade.
 
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Haven't you answered your own question? Higher frequency correlates with stiffness. A stiffer blade absorbs less energy, and so the ball absorbs more energy. More compression of the ball on contact (or the ball and the rubber), more decompression, more kinetic energy, faster blade.
Almost, how much energy a paddle absorbs is one thing. How much is returned is another. Also if the amplitude of vibration is small it will make little difference anyway. I can't see my Firewall+ flex at all. It is 9mm thick but made of balsa.
 
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Look at the Toxic 5 video. The paddle deforms because is absorbs a lot of the energy from the impact.
What is the frequency we read?

This is not a clear question. One can measure the fundamental and harmonics of the fundamental. I REPEAT! The frequencies can be measured using an accelerometer, recording the frequency profile and then performing an FFT on it to get all the frequencies and their relative strengths.
Do you know what a FFT is?

It's a much clearer question than you think it is. The question is: "when people usually talk about a blade's frequency, what frequency are they measuring and how are they measuring it?"
 
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So is a 2000 Hz blade faster than a 1500 Hz blade? Why?
Just because it frequency is higher?
Let me just start off by saying that respect for others and empathy mean a lot to me, but I don't like you very much, so I'm not going to be politically correct with you. You're a bully, rude and full of yourself, and I get the impression that you start these threads every now and then just to feel like the center of attention, and to make yourself look smart. You probably don't like me that much either, and I'm fine with that.

A 2000Hz blade will (almost) always be faster than a 1500Hz blade. This is not a question, this is a fact. Empirical knowledge is just as important, if not more, than theoretical knowledge. Every player that has tried some examples of these blades know this is real, they might not know why, but they can feel it. Sometimes you have to step out of the lab or wherever you work, and actually try things for yourself, not only theorize things. Although I've seen your videos, so any of your remarks on throw angle, control, feedback, speed or whatever, lose all meaning...

I don't need to study any of those things, I'm a Civil Engineer and I specialized in the seismic retrofitting of old buildings, which included Modal Analysis with numerical models calibrated by experimental measurements of their vibration frequency. Now I make blades for a living, and that background gave me enough knowledge to understand what is going on. So, while you are playing with your high speed camera, I'm building blades, testing them, making experiments with different compositions and reaching conclusions, getting feedback from costumers and learning from that too.

Right now I know better than arguing with you, so I will answer my own questions, not for you, but for others who might want to learn a little.

  • Why and how does it deform?
A blade deforms because an external force is applied (obvious). How it deforms depends on the type of contact, the amount of force that is being applied and where. Modal analysis helps us to understand how this happens, zeio posted a great video which explains a lot about these vibration modes. Every vibration mode has an associated deformed shape, but that deformation only happens for a certain excitation. This is where your incorrect thought process starts, you just speak of "vibrations" and don't differentiate.

  • What is the frequency we read?
As I stated above, you have a severe problem of understanding some pretty basic things. NextLevel already said it, but I think it's pretty clear I meant "what is the frequency that we, as players, read on our phones" not you on your lab. The frequency we read is related to the membrane mode, which correspond to the out-of-plane deformation. This is the 1500Hz we read, but you talk about this like it corresponds to pure bending, which is the fundamental mode. The fundamental mode is closer to the 100Hz range, so this statement is completely flawed

"So what if the paddle has a frequency of 1000 Hz?
In this case a complete cycle is 1 millisecond = 0.001 second.
A half cycle where the paddle is deformed and springs back is 1/2 a millisecond.
This would be optimal if the contact time is also 1/2 millisecond because the blade would be pushed back by the ball for the first quarter millisecond and then the blade would push the ball back during most of the second quarter of a millisecond. "

If you truly analysed your toxic 5 video, you could also see some twisting modes happening.

  • What variables can we change in the composition of a blade to change the frequency?
"Basically the density and thickness of the wood."

Incomplete. We can change the shape and size of the blade, the density and thickness of each ply, and consequently their relative distance and the total thickness and mass of the blade, but we can also change the orientation of the plies and the direction of the cut. Flat sawn wood has roughly the same mass as quarter sawn wood, but quarter sawn pieces are stiffer due to the grain direction. And we are just talking about all wood blades, don't even get me started on composite blades...

And here we have your very weak springboard analogy. A much better analogy would be, well, a tennis racket.

stringmoveside.jpg


If you look at slow motion videos of a ball impacting the racket, you can clearly see the most important vibration modes. The whole frame bends backwards, which is the first mode, but then the strings deform out of their plane too, "swallowing" the ball, which is the membrane mode. In tennis they use different materials, shapes and sizes to manipulate the stiffness of the frame, and different types of strings and string tension to control the amount of "swallowing". The "swallowing" is what we, as TT players, perceive as dwell time, and we can make an analogy between the layers on the blade and the strings on the racket.

  • Why do we have blades with the same composition but with different frequency?
"Different thicknesses and sizes."

Again, a real lack of understanding of a simple question. What I meant was, why do we have blades from the same model with different frequency. The answer is above basically, and this is where the problem gets tricky. You like equations, so here's one for you, this is how we calculate the fundamental mode of a cantilever: (1/2PI)*√(k/m). k stands for the stiffness of the cantilever, so it's pretty easy to see that higher stiffness produces a higher fundamental mode. However, there is an inverse proportion to mass.

Wood is a natural product, and there is a lot of deviation in terms of mechanical properties, but as a general rule we can assume that, within the same species, if a piece has a higher density, then it's also stiffer and harder. As an example we have two 5 ply blades with the same total mass and structure, but one has heavy outer layers and a light core, and the other has lighter outer layers and a heavy core. It's not easy to say what will happen in terms of frequency, it depends on the stiffness/mass relation of each layer, but this causes some differences in the relation of the 1st and 6th mode. From experience, what I can say is that a heavy core causes a lower frequency, but that doesn't mean it's slower. This is why I say that frequency doesn't matter much... Unless you really know and understand what's in the blade.

Saying that any blade is faster than another just because it has a higher frequency is of course a misconception, there are just too many variables at play. When we look at two identical compositions there is a more fair ground for comparison, more so if the mass and thickness are similar. In those cases, the frequency reading is a good and ready available tool that players have.
 
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Let me just start off by saying that respect for others and empathy mean a lot to me, but I don't like you very much, so I'm not going to be politically correct with you. You're a bully, rude and full of yourself, and I get the impression that you start these threads every now and then just to feel like the center of attention, and to make yourself look smart. You probably don't like me that much either, and I'm fine with that.

A 2000Hz blade will (almost) always be faster than a 1500Hz blade. This is not a question, this is a fact. Empirical knowledge is just as important, if not more, than theoretical knowledge. Every player that has tried some examples of these blades know this is real, they might not know why, but they can feel it. Sometimes you have to step out of the lab or wherever you work, and actually try things for yourself, not only theorize things. Although I've seen your videos, so any of your remarks on throw angle, control, feedback, speed or whatever, lose all meaning...

I don't need to study any of those things, I'm a Civil Engineer and I specialized in the seismic retrofitting of old buildings, which included Modal Analysis with numerical models calibrated by experimental measurements of their vibration frequency. Now I make blades for a living, and that background gave me enough knowledge to understand what is going on. So, while you are playing with your high speed camera, I'm building blades, testing them, making experiments with different compositions and reaching conclusions, getting feedback from costumers and learning from that too.

Right now I know better than arguing with you, so I will answer my own questions, not for you, but for others who might want to learn a little.

  • Why and how does it deform?
A blade deforms because an external force is applied (obvious). How it deforms depends on the type of contact, the amount of force that is being applied and where. Modal analysis helps us to understand how this happens, zeio posted a great video which explains a lot about these vibration modes. Every vibration mode has an associated deformed shape, but that deformation only happens for a certain excitation. This is where your incorrect thought process starts, you just speak of "vibrations" and don't differentiate.

  • What is the frequency we read?
As I stated above, you have a severe problem of understanding some pretty basic things. NextLevel already said it, but I think it's pretty clear I meant "what is the frequency that we, as players, read on our phones" not you on your lab. The frequency we read is related to the membrane mode, which correspond to the out-of-plane deformation. This is the 1500Hz we read, but you talk about this like it corresponds to pure bending, which is the fundamental mode. The fundamental mode is closer to the 100Hz range, so this statement is completely flawed

"So what if the paddle has a frequency of 1000 Hz?
In this case a complete cycle is 1 millisecond = 0.001 second.
A half cycle where the paddle is deformed and springs back is 1/2 a millisecond.
This would be optimal if the contact time is also 1/2 millisecond because the blade would be pushed back by the ball for the first quarter millisecond and then the blade would push the ball back during most of the second quarter of a millisecond. "

If you truly analysed your toxic 5 video, you could also see some twisting modes happening.

  • What variables can we change in the composition of a blade to change the frequency?
"Basically the density and thickness of the wood."

Incomplete. We can change the shape and size of the blade, the density and thickness of each ply, and consequently their relative distance and the total thickness and mass of the blade, but we can also change the orientation of the plies and the direction of the cut. Flat sawn wood has roughly the same mass as quarter sawn wood, but quarter sawn pieces are stiffer due to the grain direction. And we are just talking about all wood blades, don't even get me started on composite blades...

And here we have your very weak springboard analogy. A much better analogy would be, well, a tennis racket.

View attachment 26236

If you look at slow motion videos of a ball impacting the racket, you can clearly see the most important vibration modes. The whole frame bends backwards, which is the first mode, but then the strings deform out of their plane too, "swallowing" the ball, which is the membrane mode. In tennis they use different materials, shapes and sizes to manipulate the stiffness of the frame, and different types of strings and string tension to control the amount of "swallowing". The "swallowing" is what we, as TT players, perceive as dwell time, and we can make an analogy between the layers on the blade and the strings on the racket.

  • Why do we have blades with the same composition but with different frequency?
"Different thicknesses and sizes."

Again, a real lack of understanding of a simple question. What I meant was, why do we have blades from the same model with different frequency. The answer is above basically, and this is where the problem gets tricky. You like equations, so here's one for you, this is how we calculate the fundamental mode of a cantilever: (1/2PI)*√(k/m). k stands for the stiffness of the cantilever, so it's pretty easy to see that higher stiffness produces a higher fundamental mode. However, there is an inverse proportion to mass.

Wood is a natural product, and there is a lot of deviation in terms of mechanical properties, but as a general rule we can assume that, within the same species, if a piece has a higher density, then it's also stiffer and harder. As an example we have two 5 ply blades with the same total mass and structure, but one has heavy outer layers and a light core, and the other has lighter outer layers and a heavy core. It's not easy to say what will happen in terms of frequency, it depends on the stiffness/mass relation of each layer, but this causes some differences in the relation of the 1st and 6th mode. From experience, what I can say is that a heavy core causes a lower frequency, but that doesn't mean it's slower. This is why I say that frequency doesn't matter much... Unless you really know and understand what's in the blade.

Saying that any blade is faster than another just because it has a higher frequency is of course a misconception, there are just too many variables at play. When we look at two identical compositions there is a more fair ground for comparison, more so if the mass and thickness are similar. In those cases, the frequency reading is a good and ready available tool that players have.

Usually I ignore these types of threads with all the negativity in them. But can I just say thanks for writing this @hipnotic from your perspective, and more importantly the way you have written it - I've really learnt something and although I don't fully understand all of it I get a much better grasp of what you are describing and its effects.
 
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Almost, how much energy a paddle absorbs is one thing. How much is returned is another. Also if the amplitude of vibration is small it will make little difference anyway. I can't see my Firewall+ flex at all. It is 9mm thick but made of balsa.
No, its not another thing!
If the energy isnt absorbed (or transformed into heat), it has to be returned.
There is no energy lost in any system!

Either its stored in movement, tension, heat, electricity or in a mixture. There maybe even more forms of energy, i am no physician...
 
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No, its not another thing!
If the energy isnt absorbed (or transformed into hear), it has to be returned.
There is no energy lost in any system!
Not quite right. Tell us how you are going to capture all that energy?
It is lost as it is not returned to the ball. How do you find or recover the energy that doesn't go to the ball?
Why do you guys try to split hairs with statements like this
Where does the sun's energy go? If would be nice to have a dyson sphere to capture all the sun's energy but people are not advanced enough yet to figure that one out.

Either its stored in movement, tension, heat, electricity or in a mixture. There maybe even more forms of energy, i am no physician...
Yes, the energy must go somewhere. Just tell me how you aren't going to capture and not lose all that energy.

The universe will eventually suffer from heat death. How are you going to capture all the energy the universe has lost.
 
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I think its not worth any discussion if you dont understand the basics of physical laws.

You find the answer in my post. What you describe as "capturing the energy" is simply a transition into heat.

Do you know the little hand training tools (for climbers)? Just perform a few exercises and you will realise the metal springs beeing warmer than before...
 
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What ever qualification you say you have mean nothing to me. You have done nothing to challenge the BS that occurs on this forum? You go with the flow to be one of the guys.

Bully? If you don't want to be "bullied" just don't say something you can't justify with facts. By now you should know I don't give a #### about opinions. Woke people like opinions and feelings.

If you disagree with something be specific and say what it is with facts. It seems to me this forum can only make personal ( ad hominem ) attacks because they don't the facts, math or physics. I have pointed to documents like the Tieffenbacher document to back up my statements. I have posted the a link to the formula for calculating the speed after impact a few times. I have provided high speed videos. I have done simulations showing what one degree of trajectory difference makes to the ball landing position but no one seems to care.
This forum would do well to ban posts about boosting and not topics that make a difference. I have posted a couple of videos of me playing.

So hipntic, WHAT HAVE YOU PROVIDED BUT PERSONAL ATTACK?
WTFRU? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
For someone who doesn't care about feelings you got really upset there. I like facts too, I just stated some. Ironically, you just proved me right.

I haven't done anything, you are right, you are our savior! Where would we actual players be without you? You are ahead of your time, a few years from now you'll be know as "BB the guy who saved theoretical TT".

I'll just continue building my blades, and when someone asks me for a 1500Hz blade I'll just say: why not make it 2000? It will be the same and you will look cooler!
 
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There is a reason brokenball has been banned from every major TT forum he has joined and I hope the moderator team can see the difference between an expert who understands table tennis and the limitations of his insights and is addressing the questions with the goal of improving insight vs an expert who doesn't understand table tennis and is simply looking for ways to pretend he is smarter than better players. With that distinction, I hope it is clearer that the purported value that brokenball (with his repeated violation of forum rules) brings to the forum is pretty limited.

The most useful thing trolls like brokenball have done is to get people like JrDallas, hipnotic and zeio who are far more insightful to respond. But his schtick gets exhausting after a while.
 
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What ever qualification you say you have mean nothing to me. You have done nothing to challenge the BS that occurs on this forum? You go with the flow to be one of the guys.

Bully? If you don't want to be "bullied" just don't say something you can't justify with facts. By now you should know I don't give a #### about opinions. Woke people like opinions and feelings.

If you disagree with something be specific and say what it is with facts. It seems to me this forum can only make personal ( ad hominem ) attacks because they don't the facts, math or physics. I have pointed to documents like the Tieffenbacher document to back up my statements. I have posted the a link to the formula for calculating the speed after impact a few times. I have provided high speed videos. I have done simulations showing what one degree of trajectory difference makes to the ball landing position but no one seems to care.
This forum would do well to ban posts about boosting and not topics that make a difference. I have posted a couple of videos of me playing.

So hipntic, WHAT HAVE YOU PROVIDED BUT PERSONAL ATTACK?
WTFRU? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
For the record, and if you were reading his posts, you might have noticed this, he is a professional manufacturer of blades. He builds them for a living and uses his civil engineering background to inform his design analysis and choices. He has multiple posts on multiple forums advertising his creations and how they were designed to play and suit certain players/styles. So in actual fact, he is far more experimentally and empirically informed about the nuances of blade design than you are, the fact that you would like to compare the things you have supposedly done with cameras and papers and posting videos to his experiences designing building blades for players is laughable to most of us, but then again, weirder things have happened for sure. But I think most people who can see that you didn't even raise a finger to response to the substance of his answers can tell your answers are just vaporware.
 
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The most useful thing trolls like brokenball have done is to get people like JrDallas, hipnotic and zeio who are far more insightful to respond.
There's real value in this. I usually enjoy brokenball's threads for exactly this reason. It's easy enough to ignore the schtick and find the good stuff.
 
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Just for the fun: Did someone posted this video from DiegoTTTube before?

Super Slow Motion Table Tennis Ball and racket physics
1. 16000 fps slow motion tests: Ball deformation, Racket deflection
2. Software generated 32000 fps repetition

3. 16000 fps long pips contact (ball picks up moderate spin at contact)
4. Repeated at software generated 32000 fps

Blade in the first test looks like an Avalox BT555 or BT550
 
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