Beginner looking to build a solid racket

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No it's not necessary but neither is it ridiculous or impossible.
FH and BH are already hugely different strokes. Itf you're setting out to learn, as opposed to just mess around on a home table, then its just as easy to learn a good FH technique with H3N on FH as it is with R7. 2 different games at the same time, definitely not, you're way over exaggerating there.
Hardness goes from 37-41.
I disagree that they are hugely different strokes, but the point here is that a lot of this comes down to philosophical approach and coaching.
 
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I have started playing with two sides hybrids, rakza z on 5 ply primorac and after a month or so dignics 09c on timo ball caf - not the slowest blade, and I learn how to stroke the ball pretty fast. After some time I have tried different blades and different softest backhand rubbers, such as dignics 05 or dignics 80, tenergy19, fastarc g-1 i can train and play with them, but i always coming back to two sides of hybrids
 
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I disagree that they are hugely different strokes, but the point here is that a lot of this comes down to philosophical approach and coaching.
Funny old world but you are the first person I've heard say that l, ever. It just seems you and I agree on almost nothing.
Curiosity, what is your rationale for saying that?
I really cannot see how BH and FH technique are anything alike.
 
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Funny old world but you are the first person I've heard say that l, ever. It just seems you and I agree on almost nothing.
Curiosity, what is your rationale for saying that?
I really cannot see how BH and FH technique are anything alike.
Spin is generated broadly the same way regardless of technique. It is like saying that throwing a frisbee from left to right across your body is completely different from throwing a frisbee from right to left across your body. There are aspects of human physiology that make certain things easier and harder with each side, but whether that means that one should go so far as to say they are not alike, well, that depends on the philosophy one is using to approach these things - if players can facilitate similar swing speeds on both sides, then many of the barriers to using similar rubbers on both sides become less compelling. My coach used to try to help teach topspin to the weaker side (for me my forehand at the time) by facilitating a transfer of understanding of backhand to forehand so that my conceptual understanding of the strokes would be simpler. That someone like Noshad Alamiyan can play at a high level playing backhands all over the table and at many distances should give people pause if they claim without any reservation that the techniques are completely different.
 
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Spin is generated broadly the same way regardless of technique. It is like saying that throwing a frisbee from left to right across your body is completely different from throwing a frisbee from right to left across your body. There are aspects of human physiology that make certain things easier and harder with each side, but whether that means that one should go so far as to say they are not alike, well, that depends on the philosophy one is using to approach these things - if players can facilitate similar swing speeds on both sides, then many of the barriers to using similar rubbers on both sides become less compelling. My coach used to try to help teach topspin to the weaker side (for me my forehand at the time) by facilitating a transfer of understanding of backhand to forehand so that my conceptual understanding of the strokes would be simpler. That someone like Noshad Alamiyan can play at a high level playing backhands all over the table and at many distances should give people pause if they claim without any reservation that the techniques are completely different.
No dude, they are hugely different 😂
Or you've done a rare coaching course that would be unable to offer explanation as to why so many people (the enormous majority) use different rubbers on both sides and why so many of those cases see those two rubbers are vastly different and BH rubber usually softer.
Understanding the physics of how rubber and sponge put spin on a ball is a different thing completely from the swing mechanics involved to achieve that at the moment of impact -
to incorporate legs, core, hips, rotation, shoulder (or not) forearm, wrist, timing, positioning and more. It even feels completely different and almost everyone starts with a stronger side because they are so different.
Why do baseball pitchers use full open FH sided throw mechanics? Why nobody throws across their body? Power and speed is why and as powerful as FZDs BH is (or anyone with a more powerful one) their FH is still more powerful, because of the different mechanics.
Even writing all this seems pointless, I kinda have the feeling you're just pulling my leg 😂
As for the Nosad Alamiyan example, I think the fact any player would do this just highlights for us how different FH and BH actually are!!! Otherwise just do a FH, it's just like performing a BH ...right.
But his is a bad example anyway cos his reason for doing so due to Neurological damage and he can't actually perform properly FH technique.
 
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No dude, they are hugely different 😂
Or you've done a rare coaching course that would be unable to offer explanation as to why so many people (the enormous majority) use different rubbers on both sides and why so many of those cases see those two rubbers are vastly different and BH rubber usually softer.
Understanding the physics of how rubber and sponge put spin on a ball is a different thing completely from the swing mechanics involved to achieve that at the moment of impact -
to incorporate legs, core, hips, rotation, shoulder (or not) forearm, wrist, timing, positioning and more. It even feels completely different and almost everyone starts with a stronger side because they are so different.
Why do baseball pitchers use full open FH sided throw mechanics? Why nobody throws across their body? Power and speed is why and as powerful as FZDs BH is (or anyone with a more powerful one) their FH is still more powerful, because of the different mechanics.
Even writing all this seems pointless, I kinda have the feeling you're just pulling my legs 😂
As for the Nosad Alamiyan example, I think the fact any player would do this just highlights for us how different FH and BH actually are!!! Otherwise just do a FH, it's just like performing a BH ...right.
But his is a bad example anyway cos his reason for doing so due to Neurological damage and he can't actually perform properly FH technique.
Okay. If you read carefully what I wrote, you will see that I made the point you made and still made the claim that once one swings relatively well on both sides, there is little need to make a sharp distinction between what one can play with on both sides and that there is no different in the physics of how spin and power is generated with a rubber on either side (and of course, this leaves aside the point that even good players can have a reason to use harder rubber on backhand or twiddle in matches but I digress). But a lot of what you wrote seems to be in point scoring mode and ignores all the issues with what you wrote and I am not really in the mood to have that kind of discussion at the moment. Someone made a comment along the lines of what you posted on the Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat thread and I posted a video of my play. Since you feel so confident of your understanding of table tennis, maybe you can share your play at some point that shows why you are so positive that it isn't possible to play at a high level with a relatively similar approach to forehand and backhand in terms of rubber choice and swing approach even while allowing for all the physiological differences that make it easier to favor the forehand for power shots and the backhand for reducing footwork/movement demands.
 
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Okay. If you read carefully what I wrote, you will see that I made the point you made and still made the claim that once one swings relatively well on both sides, there is little need to make a sharp distinction between what one can play with on both sides and that there is no different in the physics of how spin and power is generated with a rubber on either side (and of course, this leaves aside the point that even good players can have a reason to use harder rubber on backhand or twiddle in matches but I digress). But a lot of what you wrote seems to be in point scoring mode and ignores all the issues with what you wrote and I am not really in the mood to have that kind of discussion at the moment. Someone made a comment along the lines of what you posted on the Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat thread and I posted a video of my play. Since you feel so confident of your understanding of table tennis, maybe you can share your play at some point that shows why you are so positive that it isn't possible to play at a high level with a relatively similar approach to forehand and backhand in terms of rubber choice and swing approach even while allowing for all the physiological differences that make it easier to favor the forehand for power shots and the backhand for reducing footwork/movement demands.
Because it's not needed that I do that. My understanding of the human body and my attempts to improve my game by watching, following and copying the best players I know along with coaching received and helping others to improve their game illustrates perfectly clearly to me that the stroke mechanics are vastly different. Vastly.
But no, I'm not point scoring.
And I don't see you make the point I made, we are making 2 opposing points as far as I can tell.
I never said that it isn't possible to play at a high level in terms of rubber choice, but the swing mechanics are different and you my man are half crazy 😬
Isn't this thread about advice to a new player for rubber choice. Do you forget this because you are point scoring?
If you want to tell beginners that the stroke mechanics of FH and BH are largely the same, or starting with a Viscaria can be OK, or someone descending into 'tit for tat' isn't mental weakness then go ahead.
If someone completely disagreeing with your stance puts you in a mood then, oh sorry.
Let's just say your right and both be wrong 🙄
But where I'm from almost everyone would disagree with your statement on the mechanics.
I reckon you've managed to write something disagreeing with almost every post I've made on this site 😂 because even though most of my stuff is fairly conventional and common sense you love the nitty gritty exceptions eh.
There's always a beginner with Viscaria who turned into a great player but would you really give that advice to a friend starting out? If it wasn't the exception then everyone would be doing it.
Hey....as long as you're having fun man. Feel free to ignore every other post I ever make so we can both avoid your petty bs 😉 cheers
 
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Because it's not needed that I do that. My understanding of the human body and my attempts to improve my game by watching, following and copying the best players I know along with coaching received and helping others to improve their game illustrates perfectly clearly to me that the stroke mechanics are vastly different. Vastly.
But no, I'm not point scoring.
And I don't see you make the point I made, we are making 2 opposing points as far as I can tell.
I never said that it isn't possible to play at a high level in terms of rubber choice, but the swing mechanics are different and you my man are half crazy 😬
Isn't this thread about advice to a new player for rubber choice. Do you forget this because you are point scoring?
If you want to tell beginners that the stroke mechanics of FH and BH are largely the same, or starting with a Viscaria can be OK, or someone descending into 'tit for tat' isn't mental weakness then go ahead.
If someone completely disagreeing with your stance puts you in a mood then, oh sorry.
Let's just say your right and both be wrong 🙄
But where I'm from almost everyone would disagree with your statement on the mechanics.
I reckon you've managed to write something disagreeing with almost every post I've made on this site 😂 because even though most of my stuff is fairly conventional and common sense you love the nitty gritty exceptions eh.
There's always a beginner who eventually played well with a Viscaria but would you really give that advice to a friend starting out?
Hey....as long as you're having fun man. Feel free to ignore every other post I ever make so we can both avoid your petty bs 😉 cheers
The swing mechanics are different but it is easy to overstate how different they are. Your arguments sound to me like saying that left and right handed players are so different that there is no similarity between them. Or that the strokes are so different that pronation and supination are not done on both forehand and backhand topspins. My position is that the principles of spin generation are the same (racket head speed, turning contact, use of fingers and wrist) but there are things about the physiology of the human body that make some things different depending on the philosophical and strategic approach of the player.

That said, it's really interesting your approach to these issues, thanks for discussing. And there is no problem, I will continue to point out that it is very different when someone who does not hide behind anonymity is discussing with someone who does.
 
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The swing mechanics are different but it is easy to overstate how different they are. Your arguments sound to me like saying that left and right handed players are so different that there is no similarity between them.
Oh dear god, are you creating a straw man in your head. 'Oh, it sounds as ridiculous as this therefore....'
What I've said is nothing like the idea that left and right handed players are so different.
I'm saying that BH and FH mechanics are very different.
Or that the strokes are so different that pronation and supination are not done on both forehand and backhand topspins.
Again, nitty gritty. You can pronate or supinate while washing the dishes, is washing dishes similar to playing a FH Loop?
My position is that the principles of spin generation are the same (racket head speed, turning contact, use of fingers and wrist)
This is physics, this is obviously the same for ball and racket contact. This is irrelevant as regards the mechanics of swinging your arm and the body movement required in creating contact.
but there are things about the physiology of the human body that make some things different
Yes, and it's irrespective of the players philosophy, it's biology.
That said, it's really interesting your approach to these issues, thanks for discussing. And there is no problem, I will continue to point out that it is very different when someone who does not hide behind anonymity is discussing with someone who does.
Sorry, I didn't realise you were famous.
So Viscaria and a driven belief that BH and FH are the same, this is where I went wrong 30 yrs ago! It's a pity, maybe if I knew all this back then I'd already be NextLevel eh!
 
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Oh dear god, are you creating a straw man in your head. 'Oh, it sounds as ridiculous as this therefore....'
What I've said is nothing like the idea that left and right handed players are so different.
I'm saying that BH and FH mechanics are very different.

Again, nitty gritty. You can pronate or supinate while washing the dishes, is washing dishes similar to playing a FH Loop?

This is physics, this is obviously the same for ball and racket contact. This is irrelevant as regards the mechanics of swinging your arm and the body movement required in creating contact.

Yes, and it's irrespective of the players philosophy, it's biology.

Sorry, I didn't realise you were famous.
So Viscaria and a driven belief that BH and FH are the same, this is where I went wrong 30 yrs ago! It's a pity, maybe if I knew all this back then I'd already be NextLevel eh!

Well we have a pretty small TT community in the US so everyone tends to know everyone. I used to be a staple of TTEdge.com videos at one time. I just got injured then got married and now other things have mixed priority with TT. But I enjoy and love the sport and do what I can to support and promote it and to help adult learners understand it better since I went through a lot as one. There was a time it wasn't uncommon for me to go to an event and have someone say hi to me because they were familiar with TT videos or my channels or my posts and thank me for encouraging them in some fashion. Happens far less these days, but I make the point so that we have it clear that I have no reason to make statements that I cannot stand behind in person since I am relative public as a TT person. So usually, when someone is being continually rude about a disagreement, I realize when they continue to do it without sharing much about themselves that a lot of their rudeness is driven by anonymity and they feel they can act in ways they wouldn't if they were more public. If they do so as public personas, that is a rarer and different story.

I said that the way the forehand and backhand produce spin is pretty much the same. They are throwing motions, similar to throwing a Frisbee or a discus, there are physiological differences that make both strokes different but if one can generate fairly similar racket head speed with swings on both sides, there is no strong reason to treat them differently. So can you treat the forehand and backhand differences the same as the differences between washing dishes and playing table tennis strokes? Sure you can. But can you look at the similarities and use them to illuminate technique and even sometimes understand the shots better for your personal game? Sure. As I said, it was partly how I developed my approach to these shots.

I also said that one can treat FH or BH as similarly or as differently as one wishes based on one's philosophical and strategic approach to the game. I gave the example of Noshad Alamiyan. Who plays a backhand in a situation where many players would play the forehand (one can focus on the supposed reason which is largely besides the point), to make the point that the backhand can do just about everything the forehand can, it is just a matter of how the stroke fits into your game and of course, the way the forehand being played mostly besides you allows for more swing room while maintaining visibility. Now in many ways and for obvious reasons, a lefty often plays a backhand where a righty would play a forehand and vice versa. Now for the swing it self, a player can take a broad curved stroke swing approach to top spin that is similar on both sides. One also needs to find whippy strokes on both sides, and because of the speed of table tennis, usually both sides cannot have equally big strokes especially close to the table, one has to be prioriitized as ready (usually the backhand) and the other has to be transitioned into (usually the forehand).

But as I said on another thread, usually, players who make the backhand sound like an alien next to the forehand In my Experience usually don't have good backhands. In anything in life you can focus on what is similar and what is different. I like to believe that for some approaches to table tennis, the gap between forehand topspin and backhand topspin is not huge, once certain limitations are accepted. Obviously you may think those limitations make the gap huge and that is understandable. I just have never agreed with that, partly because I played good backhands before I played good forehands.

Finally a lot of my approach and my focus is on coaching and learning, not getting good results in matches immediately. Not whether a player can use a Viscaria with Tenergy 05 to play well immediately he gets it, but whether if they decided to get pushed with the right exercises to understand how to control it, whether they can play reasonably well with such a fast setup and develop into good players over time. Most people who assume the answer is no make a lot of unstated assumptions about the ability of the human body to adapt and focus on short term results more than I do. It might not be the optimal way for some coaches to develop some players. But that is why I go back to the philosophy of the coach. Some coach might say only use all wood 5 ply with All+ rating with Mark V until so so and so thing is achieved. That is okay too as long as it is part of the coach's tested and tried approach to developing a good player. What a good high level coach showed me was that if you can push yourself to test various approaches on a player, you can get interesting results from them over time as long as you take a broader ball read-and-control approach and not just a "perfectly put the ball on the table" approach.
 
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If calling you petty is rude then by all means be offended but you just love pointing to the marginal exception in response to every largely accurate generalisation, regardless of the fact that none of it is of any help to the OP.
What was your first interjection - to compare my suggestion (that learning BH with a relatively hard rubber may be more difficult) to pistol squats followed by obscure advice about what some coaches do to start players with fast blades.
But there's no coach in this scenario, just a starter player looking for some generally good advice. Would you have him practicing his loop with hard rubber?
Of course not, I think you even told him his choices were fine. As is using softer rubber for BH if desired.
So this is just you on some sort of trip. I will leave you alone in your search for more repudiations to be struck with your outlying theories and just assume that you are defining mechanics as 'racket hits ball'.
And I've written nothing that I wouldn't say to you in person, along with maybe explaining a little bit on what body mechanics actually are and show you from ankle to wrist just how differently you are moving your body for each stroke along with the different pressure and hinging points, but I have the feeling you probably wouldn't listen. 😂
 
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I disagree that they are hugely different strokes, but the point here is that a lot of this comes down to philosophical approach and coaching.

I agree, and your posts are appreciated. A flexible nuanced approach is always preferable to a rigid and over-simplified one. A good coach adjusts strokes to match playing style and matches playing style to suit the player, within reason - Instead of trying to shoe-horn every player into a 'standard' style and set of strokes. It takes experience and wisdom to adopt that approach. The player's intellect and personality have a big role in play style, if that's not taken into account, they will get bored, lose passion or lose creativity. This is also not even taking into account the extreme amount of time, athleticism, abundance of coaches and training partners, and facilities required to make the 'standard' style work at a high level.
 
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I agree, and your posts are appreciated. A flexible nuanced approach is always preferable to a rigid and over-simplified one. A good coach adjusts strokes to match playing style and matches playing style to suit the player, within reason - Instead of trying to shoe-horn every player into a 'standard' style and set of strokes. It takes experience and wisdom to adopt that approach. The player's intellect and personality have a big role in play style, if that's not taken into account, they will get bored, lose passion or lose creativity. This is also not even taking into account the extreme amount of time, athleticism, abundance of coaches and training partners, and facilities required to make the 'standard' style work at a high level.
Tell this to em' chinese coach...
 
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I think what @NextLevel means was more about mental approach of the stroke. I’m not mentioning that backhand and forehand topspin’s mechanics are different. It’s obvious that are many differences between them. Forehand side should be easy to generate power and speed for most of the players. And backhand is not. But when you became familiar with both (backhand/forehand) - then you should treat them like almost equally - not technically but psychologically. If ball goes to your left just use backhand to you wright - forehand etc. And when you start to overthinking your backhand during the match - it’s only became worst for the result.

Even in China many young players are starting to play with reasonably hard, cheap rubbers both sides, to develop a feeling. And after some time - naturally switch to some faster or more “high end” stuff

Some young players don’t even have right to choose - coach is make such decisions about what equipment they should be using ( in my country is mostly tenergy 05/05fx), and they are doing totally fine
 
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If calling you petty is rude then by all means be offended but you just love pointing to the marginal exception in response to every largely accurate generalisation, regardless of the fact that none of it is of any help to the OP.
What was your first interjection - to compare my suggestion (that learning BH with a relatively hard rubber may be more difficult) to pistol squats followed by obscure advice about what some coaches do to start players with fast blades.
But there's no coach in this scenario, just a starter player looking for some generally good advice. Would you have him practicing his loop with hard rubber?
Of course not, I think you even told him his choices were fine. As is using softer rubber for BH if desired.
So this is just you on some sort of trip. I will leave you alone in your search for more repudiations to be struck with your outlying theories and just assume that you are defining mechanics as 'racket hits ball'.
And I've written nothing that I wouldn't say to you in person, along with maybe explaining a little bit on what body mechanics actually are and show you from ankle to wrist just how differently you are moving your body for each stroke along with the different pressure and hinging points, but I have the feeling you probably wouldn't listen. 😂
I would listen to you. In fact, I am waiting for you to actually display your strokes and to show how the backhand is so different from the forehand that everything I have written and said, based on my experience training and coaching, is flat out wrong. Since I am speaking from experience, I have no problem leveling my experience against what anyone else has to say and I am aware of thr limitations of what I am saying. My belief is that if we discuss these things insightfully, people learn something. And my position is that most of these recommendations don't make that much difference in the absence of a coach.

The thing is that there are lots of players all over the world using rubbers of exactly the same hardness on both sides, including soft rubber on forehand and hard rubber on backhand. Carl and I used to groan every time a poster would come asking "What is a good backhand rubber" to which I would invariably respond "a good rubber is a good rubber - the question is what do you want to do with the rubber and how do you play your forehand or backhand". I mean there are players would would say that Fastarc C1 or Tenergy 05 are too soft for their forehands despite far more advanced players than them successfully using such rubbers in their forehands!

So even softer rubber on the forehand can be fine. I have an inherent bias for using the same inverted rubber on both sides in most situations when learning as a beginner so that intuitions can be transferred from forehand to backhand and vice versa. Obviously this method would make no sense if one feels that the forehand is very different from the backhand.

Basically, I was trying to tell OP not to expend too much time on selecting equipment and to focus on coaching and training and if he can, he should actually work with the coach in determining what to use. Good coaches can believe different things about how to develop a player and there is nothing wrong with this. If there is no coach, a lot of stuff with respect to equipment won't make a huge difference. I tend to ask people to hit the ball really slowly when learning so my spin based, close to the table bias might be why I am not so big on equipment speed.

Using harder rubber on the backhand is not something impossible if one wants to grow into it, even for a beginner. And this goes back to the question of how someone wants to play. Learning in table tennis is an evolutionary process. One grows into their playing style and technique. The problem most amateurs and beginners face is patience and developing fine motor skills and harmonizing their body use with their swings. When one coaches with a focus on these things, very often, equipment matters far less than one would expect. And of course, equipment can be optimized to support this or the speed/power game at any time. Of course, if one wants to focus on the output of using a softer rubber for a beginner, then usually that should produce a better quality shot from the beginner on day one. But if the beginner has a coach instructing him on how to use the harder rubber, it is quite possible for the beginner to produce good balls with the harder rubber than he would with the softer rubber for some shots. And it is quite possible that for the dominant play style the beginner wants to develop into, the harder rubber is better than the softer rubber.
 
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Tell this to em' chinese coach...
Most coaches develop players the way they were coached and developed, and the stereotypical Chinese coaches you are speaking of are very technical and are very good for learning juniors or ambitious athletic adults. Regardless, all good coaches take into account the nuances of the player they are working with, especially when their focus is on improving players not on selecting players. It is subtly different to get paid to make a student better vs working with a class room of students and selecting the best ones for the next level. Both are coaching but they don't require exactly the same skills.
 
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says toooooo much choice!!
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Primorac all wood is a great blade, the Japan made version is more expensive but better quality, if you can afford it, go for the Japan version, it'll serve you well for years and plays well with many different rubbers.
As for rubber choice, Rozena is a good choice, for both FH & BH, Glazer and Glazer 09C are also reasonable choices.
As far as tackiness is concerned, don't over worry yourself about this, but the G09C may be easier to use on your FH rather than backhand.
Many players started with tacky rubbers on both FH and BH, there is no real right or wrong between grippy or tacky rubbers, make a choice and then stick to it.
More importantly, get some coaching and join a club if you can, this is way more important than equipment all day long!!
Once you have achieved good technique and consistency, you can then look at upgrading rubbers in the future.
 
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