Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

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Cool, so you're aiming to go from winning ~1 out of 3 to ~2 out of 3 per match. Best of luck!
I took a break from league this season but I will re-join this coming season. I have been training relatively seriously and hopefully can surprise some of my opponents :)
Yes, it's a fairly tall order but I felt I could have done better this season if I had been less tight and anxious in the matches (This was my first season back after re-starting TT in December '21)

Be sure to share your progress next season!
 
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That's the one!

Apart from a few 2 man leagues (which are far more popular in Summer, and generally not considered to be as important), all of the leagues I know are 3 man teams with 9 singles and a doubles.

Some leagues have different scoring systems, but most simply count the number of matches won on the night (so it could be 5-5 or 10-0 and anything in between).

I do play in one league that counts the number of *games* won.....

So if Team A beat Team B 10-0 in matches, but each match was 3-2..... The score would actually be 30-20.

Whilst it may seem more "fair".... I hate it.

I think the mental strength to win a close match is worth the victory, and I don't think there should be rewards for losing.

You could lose 2 of your 3 matches but still come out with a positive average.

2-3 LOSS
2-3 LOSS
3-0 WIN

Gives you a score of 7 games won and 6 games lost..... an average of 53.85%

Under normal conditions, it would be 33.33%......
Ive not heard of that format before - it would reward progress and development - becuase if i take a set off some of the top players I take that as a good performance. But equally theres plenty of times i screw up the first end before getting going.
 
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Yes, it's a fairly tall order but I felt I could have done better this season if I had been less tight and anxious in the matches (This was my first season back after re-starting TT in December '21)

Be sure to share your progress next season!

Thats a fair goal - but you might have to see how the league your going into stakes up (are you getting promoted?)
 
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Yes, it's a fairly tall order but I felt I could have done better this season if I had been less tight and anxious in the matches (This was my first season back after re-starting TT in December '21)

Be sure to share your progress next season!
It depends on why you lose. If there are major technical flaw or weakness, then it would take a bit of work to improve your match results. But sometimes it's just conditioning and mentality; you could see some rapid improvement in your results if you can fix those. However, mentality/nerves isn't an easy thing to fix for some people.
 
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Yes, it's a fairly tall order but I felt I could have done better this season if I had been less tight and anxious in the matches (This was my first season back after re-starting TT in December '21)

Be sure to share your progress next season!
Competition anxiety is treated by participating in even more competitions, so that it would be an everyday procedure like training.
 
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It depends on why you lose. If there are major technical flaw or weakness, then it would take a bit of work to improve your match results. But sometimes it's just conditioning and mentality; you could see some rapid improvement in your results if you can fix those. However, mentality/nerves isn't an easy thing to fix for some people.
I think that I am caught a little because I am giving up some points in order to play the style of game and shots I aspire to play - so by way of an example, I am trying to avoid pushing on my BH and instead opening up on anything half long or longer. In the short term this is costing me points in order to develop a batter game long term. I want to work on these shots and aim to build more confidence and belief in the off-season that I can bring into next league season. There are others too - I am trying to build a better FH loop technique.

Probably, in all honesty what caused me to lose most points this season was poor serve return and spin read..
 
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I think that I am caught a little because I am giving up some points in order to play the style of game and shots I aspire to play - so by way of an example, I am trying to avoid pushing on my BH and instead opening up on anything half long or longer. In the short term this is costing me points in order to develop a batter game long term. I want to work on these shots and aim to build more confidence and belief in the off-season that I can bring into next league season. There are others too - I am trying to build a better FH loop technique.

Probably, in all honesty what caused me to lose most points this season was poor serve return and spin read..
I know many players who do that. Personally I play quite conservatively during a match, mostly sticking to techniques I am confident with. When I try to learn/improve my strokes, I first make sure I can do it well in practice. Doing new things in a match is just too stressful for me.

Generally I try to go through these stages when I learn/improve a certain shot:

- do it with regular feed
- do it with varying feed (e.g. different amount of spin, different locations [corner/middle])
- do it in match-like fixed sequence practice (e.g. short serve, long push, open up ...)
- do it in match-like random practice (e.g. feeder can do any short serve, I try to flick)
- do it in real match, but safely
- do it in real match, aiming for maximum quality
 
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@Gozo

Just a note from my practice experiences, 1000 practice shots won't nearly be enough. I've done well over 10,000 BH loops vs backspin and it's just beginning to become useful in games!

Also, 70% success rate in practice is not nearly enough. Success rate drops significantly in games. 70-80% will easily become 40-50% in real games. That means your loop attempts will lose you more points than they win. You need 90+% success rate in practice doing something simple as the drills others have mentioned (i.e. serve, push, loop), assuming you're focusing well like it's a game and your shot is not meant to outright win the point.
Thanks for this. Gozo thinks I am joking when give him 6 months to a year assuming he works on it. His choice of equipment is not going to make his match journey easier (but not impossible either) but he chose to lie on that bed so he will have to enjoy it.
 
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We had our penultimate match in one of the leagues I play in last night.

21 matches in the season (8 teams in the division and you play each other 3 times).

We have just clinched the Premier Division title with 1 match to go!

CHOOOOOOOOO!!

It’s probably the toughest league I play in, and there are 8 divisions in total (we play in the top division).

I really like the league format, and I’m surprised other countries don’t adopt it more (even if teams are playing from the same venue).

It seems common(ish) in Europe, but significantly less common in Asia and the Americas (unless I’m misinformed?)

I’ve had a bit of an up and down year - I started really strong, had a terrible mid season, and I’ve finished pretty strong.

I should end up on around 78% which I’m happy enough about (definitely some silly losses over the year!)
Congrats, winning through performance over time is always a good feeling.
 

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@Gozo

Just a note from my practice experiences, 1000 practice shots won't nearly be enough. I've done well over 10,000 BH loops vs backspin and it's just beginning to become useful in games!

Also, 70% success rate in practice is not nearly enough. Success rate drops significantly in games. 70-80% will easily become 40-50% in real games. That means your loop attempts will lose you more points than they win. You need 90+% success rate in practice doing something simple as the drills others have mentioned (i.e. serve, push, loop), assuming you're focusing well like it's a game and your shot is not meant to outright win the point.
LOL, I did at least 200k practice bh loops vs backspin before I accepted it would never be good and switched to pips bh. 1000 is like one or two days worth. I trained that stroke for four years and still gave up after.

About success rate dingyibvs is right, BUT, only if you are playing matches to win instead of to practice. To quote Brian Pace 'nobody cares how many practice matches you win.' You will make progress so much faster if you mentally assign every match to either competition or practice categories. If it is comp just try to win however you can. And when it is practice, do the strokes you want to learn. If your success rate is 20% and you get slaughtered, WHO CARES? It was practice.

I am volunteer coaching five players at a local club who are roughly your level. We get enough training time in a week for each of them to have about 30 - 40 minutes with me. So I told them if they only train that time maybe in a year they will learn a new skill. If they also use the 7ish hours of matchplay we get for training instead of serious comp, that learning time gets cut to 3 months or so. Their choice.

And about your fh loop, the biggest issue I see with these players is that they still bh push from the fh side, or now sometimes bh topspin from the fh side. That's not the problem, but they don't reverse their feet back to a fh stance, or not quick enough. So they lock up their own body rotation and can't play a good fh topspin. There is a negative feedback loop in this where they can't play the practice fh in matches and lose confidence, and lack of confidence makes their fh tighter and worse. But it all comes from the feet. Maybe if your coach thinks it is a good idea, try a drill where you push one ball with bh from your fh side, he pushes back to your fh and you turn around and play a proper loop. That seems more game-relevant than just looping fh vs backspin against multiball where you always have your feet right because you pre-decided to loop it.

Does that make sense?
 
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I think that I am caught a little because I am giving up some points in order to play the style of game and shots I aspire to play - so by way of an example, I am trying to avoid pushing on my BH and instead opening up on anything half long or longer. In the short term this is costing me points in order to develop a batter game long term. I want to work on these shots and aim to build more confidence and belief in the off-season that I can bring into next league season. There are others too - I am trying to build a better FH loop technique.

Probably, in all honesty what caused me to lose most points this season was poor serve return and spin read..
Trying to win matches with immature technique is tough, especially when you are playing at a decent level already. Let it be a gradual evolution as the body will naturally select what it feels will give it the highest probability of success. Your coach might have a different philosophy but I would encourage you to be extremely focused on spin production and range training (swinging at various speeds and timings so you don't feel pressure when you are late to the ball but can take advantage of being early) while making sure you always mix backspin loop and topspin vs block/topspin in your practice so you don't overly prioritize one or the other. If you get into the mentality that it is okay to hit three or four well placed shots to win a point, it takes the pressure off you to hit winners and if you get lucky enough to develop the quality and timing that enables you to hit one shot against a certain level of opposition and get them to block long or develop the placement into the elbow that gets easy misses from the opponent, that is the way to go.
 
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Trying to win matches with immature technique is tough, especially when you are playing at a decent level already. Let it be a gradual evolution as the body will naturally select what it feels will give it the highest probability of success. Your coach might have a different philosophy but I would encourage you to be extremely focused on spin production and range training (swinging at various speeds and timings so you don't feel pressure when you are late to the ball but can take advantage of being early) while making sure you always mix backspin loop and topspin vs block/topspin in your practice so you don't overly prioritize one or the other. If you get into the mentality that it is okay to hit three or four well placed shots to win a point, it takes the pressure off you to hit winners and if you get lucky enough to develop the quality and timing that enables you to hit one shot against a certain level of opposition and get them to block long or develop the placement into the elbow that gets easy misses from the opponent, that is the way to go.
What do you mean by range training? Learning to hit the same shot (say topspin) at with different speed and spin?
 
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Trying to win matches with immature technique is tough, especially when you are playing at a decent level already. Let it be a gradual evolution as the body will naturally select what it feels will give it the highest probability of success. Your coach might have a different philosophy but I would encourage you to be extremely focused on spin production and range training (swinging at various speeds and timings so you don't feel pressure when you are late to the ball but can take advantage of being early) while making sure you always mix backspin loop and topspin vs block/topspin in your practice so you don't overly prioritize one or the other. If you get into the mentality that it is okay to hit three or four well placed shots to win a point, it takes the pressure off you to hit winners and if you get lucky enough to develop the quality and timing that enables you to hit one shot against a certain level of opposition and get them to block long or develop the placement into the elbow that gets easy misses from the opponent, that is the way to go.
I agree. When the technique is immature, you don't have a good feel for the shot yet, so when you miss a shot in the game, you don't necessarily know what you did wrong. Maybe you were too late, too early, brushed too much, didn't brush enough, read the spin wrong, aimed too high, aimed too low, stood too tall, squatted too low, etc. etc. You need to try out all the possible permutations in practice until you know the shot well enough that whenever you miss, you know exactly what you did wrong. Only then does using matches as practice become useful. Otherwise you could be adjusting your aim when you should be adjusting your stance height, adjusting your brushing when you should be adjusting your timing, etc.

Maximizing your range in training is very important as well. It's always more difficult to get into position and it always takes longer to determine which shot to use in real games, that's the reason success rate is much lower during games than in practice. Being able to hit the shot under less than ideal conditions is quite important, and all attempts should be made to build that into training whenever possible.
 
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What do you mean by range training? Learning to hit the same shot (say topspin) at with different speed and spin?
Yes. Hitting with different degrees of quality so your body isn't locked into hitting the ball at one pace all the time. Or you can decide to hit every ball with the same quality but then you need to practice against different incoming balls. Challenge your body to adapt a lot because people make assumptions about hitting the ball that are not necessarily valid. So you need to challenge your assumptions by trying different things with your equipment as long as your technique is in a reasonable range of risk.
 
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Thanks for this. Gozo thinks I am joking when give him 6 months to a year assuming he works on it. His choice of equipment is not going to make his match journey easier (but not impossible either) but he chose to lie on that bed so he will have to enjoy it.
My lil'friend and I have moved past the courting stage and now in the newly married stage. Give us some time and soon we'll go to the stage where we'll complete each other sentences sub consciously. Slowly, but surely.
 
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My lil'friend and I have moved past the courting stage and now in the newly married stage. Give us some time and soon we'll go to the stage where we'll complete each other sentences unconsciously. Slowly, but surely.
Historically divorce rates are going up with time...
 
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I think that I am caught a little because I am giving up some points in order to play the style of game and shots I aspire to play - so by way of an example, I am trying to avoid pushing on my BH and instead opening up on anything half long or longer. In the short term this is costing me points in order to develop a batter game long term. I want to work on these shots and aim to build more confidence and belief in the off-season that I can bring into next league season. There are others too - I am trying to build a better FH loop technique.

Probably, in all honesty what caused me to lose most points this season was poor serve return and spin read..

Serve return is the most difficult part of the game at every level in some way or the other. The great thing is that everyone gets better at it with time. The bad thing is that you never give yourself credit for getting better at it as you always seem to be missing at the level of opposition you play against. The most important thing I think when reading a serve is to just determine whether the serve is primarily down spin or not. Tom Lodziak has a great video on how he trained someone to return pendulum serves and that video is generally applicable to reading serves. People who have good serves are changing one or more of 3 things assuming the rubber is the same:
1) the racket angle
2) the contact point (which is similar to 1 but has a different mental feel),
3) where in their swing they hit the ball
If one can figure out reasonably quickly which method the person is using to vary their serves, one at least gets part the reading part down to a straightforward thing. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with missing the serve as long as you were paying attention to the swing and the contact, because that can alert you to what you were missing. The harder part for me was training the body to respond properly to the serve (because we don't practice serve return as much as the pros do). Serve return is a very specific and technical skill, partly because it is the only return you do off a ball that bounces on your opponent's side, and you need to practice it to get good at it, and developing variation and unpredictability within your game structure helps a lot. And along with serve, it is probably the skill that has the highest returns in table tennis.
 
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Serve return is the most difficult part of the game at every level in some way or the other. The great thing is that everyone gets better at it with time. The bad thing is that you never give yourself credit for getting better at it as you always seem to be missing at the level of opposition you play against. The most important thing I think when reading a serve is to just determine whether the serve is primarily down spin or not. Tom Lodziak has a great video on how he trained someone to return pendulum serves and that video is generally applicable to reading serves. People who have good serves are changing one or more of 3 things assuming the rubber is the same:
1) the racket angle
2) the contact point (which is similar to 1 but has a different mental feel),
3) where in their swing they hit the ball
If one can figure out reasonably quickly which method the person is using to vary their serves, one at least gets part the reading part down to a straightforward thing. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with missing the serve as long as you were paying attention to the swing and the contact, because that can alert you to what you were missing. The harder part for me was training the body to respond properly to the serve (because we don't practice serve return as much as the pros do). Serve return is a very specific and technical skill, partly because it is the only return you do off a ball that bounces on your opponent's side, and you need to practice it to get good at it, and developing variation and unpredictability within your game structure helps a lot. And along with serve, it is probably the skill that has the highest returns in table tennis.
One of the difficulty about serve return is that you need to find people to serve to you. Whilst I practices regularly with similar level players, I almost always hold back on my serves during practice, partly to not give it away :D
 
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One of the difficulty about serve return is that you need to find people to serve to you. Whilst I practices regularly with similar level players, I almost always hold back on my serves during practice, partly to not give it away :D
Not sure how you are holding back as there are many ways to hold back, but a lot of it depends on whether you see your practice partners as people you compete with or people who if they get better then you get better. I personally just serve like I serve in a match, maybe I might make it more obvious but sometimes, for the level of players I sometimes practice with, it is valuable for them to see the difference between imagination and reality. And if they return the serve better, then I get a chance to learn how to practice against better returns.

That said, your approach is perfectly valid, it is just a different approach vs the one that my coach originally pushed me to embrace, and it might be because you play in a different competitive system. Of course, when my coach and myself fought, he would sometimes push people to not show me stuff so it wasn't always kumbaya. But in general, it is a good thing to accept the challenge of the people who you train with on a regular basis getting better. I like to see the real challengers as people who are from other clubs or people who I play at tournaments. Have the feeling that you have a depth to your game (maybe you hold back by not showing them every serve, but the serves you show, no need to not do them properly). It takes a lot for someone to be able to return a really good serve in a way that consistently troubles you and in practice, you do want to see that serve returned so you know what to do it with it.
 
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