Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Ayhika can still be improving, it is the young well trained players that hit their peak years ago. Those who get exposed to new patterns later may still find new highs and have random unbeatable days.

Do you do physical therapy and exercises for your strength and joints in general?

i have neglected it so far alas

 

[dingyibvs]

I'm not sure if they even explored those opportunities in the 1st place, a lot of the coaches don't even bother developing alternative players because double inverted is "proven". It fits the CNT mentality of if it ain't broken, don't fix it. The alternative players don't even get chances to develop fully, so how do you even know that the ceiling of the style is even limited?

CNT claim that penhold + RPB had no future and here you can see Felix Lebrun blazing a bright new trail with his modern penhold style, and he is already better than any of the CNT penholders.

Maybe players outside the CNT would pick this up one day.

Idk, I've played RPB before, and it gave me pretty long lasting finger and wrist pain. I think it's just a less natural motion for the human body, and something not everyone can play which reduces the available talent pool. Felix has done well, no doubt, but at the same age Harimoto and LYJ have done more damage against the CNT.

I also just don't see any advantage to LP over inverted. They can manipulate spin, sure, but they can't generate spin and doesn't have enough speed. Without either more spin or more speed it's just a matter of getting used to it in the end. Don't forget that there have been more restrictions on pips too since the heydays of JSH.

 

[dingyibvs]

Playing/training since you were a kid doesn't make you optimally trained or exposed. And while it is harder to improve or learn new tricks at an older age, some of that is context‐dependent. Working with a better coach or being in a better training environment can raise your level at any age. What that translates to competitively can be limited by age and I agree with you on that. I am just pointing out that the omprovment still happens at 27 under certain conditions as long as it isn't measured entirely by the ability to beat Sun Yingsha on demand and not lose to players below you.

Batra has had technical improvements and results in the last two years that showed a new level compared to even her great prior achievements. I am fairly confident the whole Indian team is experiencing similar things because TT is getting more funding. To put it another way, even getting on this team is a breakthrough of sorts for Ayhika because there is more competition from younger inverted players.

Long story short: I get what you mean when you say that at 27, Ayhika doesn't have the growth trajectory of a teenager. But players like Freitas and even Batra have made significant improvements in playing level as professional adults in their 20s A lot of it comes from going to more competitive environments where you aren't the biggest fish in the pond and there is some investment in you. And of course, fending off talented teammates.

I see what you mean. India seems to be investing heavily into BH alternative rubber players in particular, so it'd be interesting to see if it pays off. They've made some waves recently in the WTTTC and the Asian Games. One event can be a fluke, but two is a trend. They're definitively making progress, but now they have the world's attention, so can they continue to progress at the same pace? That's be worth watching for sure. I for one love to see more diversity in play styles, and while I remain skeptical whether this style is "superior", I do hope that they can really carve out a spot for alternative rubbers in the modern game.

 

[blahness]

Idk, I've played RPB before, and it gave me pretty long lasting finger and wrist pain. I think it's just a less natural motion for the human body, and something not everyone can play which reduces the available talent pool. Felix has done well, no doubt, but at the same age Harimoto and LYJ have done more damage against the CNT.

I also just don't see any advantage to LP over inverted. They can manipulate spin, sure, but they can't generate spin and doesn't have enough speed. Without either more spin or more speed it's just a matter of getting used to it in the end. Don't forget that there have been more restrictions on pips too since the heydays of JSH.

LP has huge advantage over inverted in serve receive due to less spin sensitivity (which is a huge part of the game!) and also as a tool to change spin/speed, and make the game more complex, which always favours the penholders. No penholder wants to go into the topspin rally unless you're Felix Lebrun.

 

[dingyibvs]

LP has huge advantage over inverted in serve receive due to less spin sensitivity (which is a huge part of the game!) and also as a tool to change spin/speed, and make the game more complex, which always favours the penholders. No penholder wants to go into the topspin rally unless you're Felix Lebrun.

You can change spin/speed with inverted too, we're just so used to it because that's what most people play with. I think if you play against LP very often you'll find that it's really pretty simple to deal with. When I first started playing, 80% of my practice matches were against this 1700 Jpen player with LP backhand that he uses for receives and change of pace. You get used to it real quick.

For example, sure, he's not likely to get aced, but he can't generate spin with his LP pushes either. Receive a backspin service from me with his LP and I get a light topspin ball that I can whack it wherever I want. It's really like any equipment I've tried on my EJ journey, everything has pros and cons. When you try out a new thing all you see are the pros, and think the cons just take some adjustments to mask. Use it long enough, and you realize that most of the time the cons almost exactly outweigh the pros, and either the net benefit or the net loss is pretty small.

 

[blahness]

You can change spin/speed with inverted too, we're just so used to it because that's what most people play with. I think if you play against LP very often you'll find that it's really pretty simple to deal with. When I first started playing, 80% of my practice matches were against this 1700 Jpen player with LP backhand that he uses for receives and change of pace. You get used to it real quick.

For example, sure, he's not likely to get aced, but he can't generate spin with his LP pushes either. Receive a backspin service from me with his LP and I get a light topspin ball that I can whack it wherever I want. It's really like any equipment I've tried on my EJ journey, everything has pros and cons. When you try out a new thing all you see are the pros, and think the cons just take some adjustments to mask. Use it long enough, and you realize that most of the time the cons almost exactly outweigh the pros, and either the net benefit or the net loss is pretty small.

Yeah that's just a low level LP user for the most part, you probably won't be saying the same thing if it was low and short and still topspin, or he randomly flicked it with weird spin with the LP.... and alternated the receives (with LP or inverted) randomly. If you served long and didn't get attacked that's really on him too.

Over here even some of the national team members have lost to these amateur inverted/LP penholders lol, so the ceiling is quite damn high indeed.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah that's just a low level LP user for the most part, you probably won't be saying the same thing if it was low and short and still topspin, or he randomly flicked it with weird spin with the LP.... and alternated the receives (with LP or inverted) randomly. If you served long and didn't get attacked that's really on him too.

Over here even some of the national team members have lost to these amateur inverted/LP penholders lol, so the ceiling is quite damn high indeed.

Low level LP user...against a very low level inverted player as I was less than a year into picking up the game. I had trouble with 1500 rated inverted players but I could easily 3-0 this 1700 rated inverted/LP penholder. That's what familiarity with LP can bring you.

I mean how often do those national team members play against LP, particularly those who aren't choppers? Low and short and still topspin, wouldn't a 2300+ rated player be able to banana flick it to hell if he can react fast enough to it, which he should if he's familiar with LP receives? What weird spin can legal LPs even generate these days? There's a reason the top choppers all use SPs now. SPs actually give me more trouble because on some shots they can generate just as much spin as inverted (pushes, serves), on some much less (loops), and on some completely dead (some blocks).

 

[dingyibvs]

i have neglected it so far alas

Self care is super important! Besides doing PT at home, I have a percussion device, 2 reusable ice packs, and 2 powered heating pads with one of them using far infrared. I use them all regularly, and I think it really helps!

 

[NextLevel]

i have neglected it so far alas

I would encourage you to follow channels on YouTube like Squat University and Knees OverToesGuy and embrace what is possible if you do exercises that combine resistance training and stretching to build your physical strength. A lot of these things improve if you do things to get stronger. No not just general cardio or weight loss - strength building activities including stretches and isometrics or strengthening use of the wrist, rotation of elbow etc. A lot of injury is simply a result of not being strong enough. And it isn't consistently discussed, but with patient and consistent exercising, strength can be built where it did not exist prior. It will help a lot once you rest the issue. Build over time some strength where it is required with targeted, graduated resistance loaded movements. As we get older, we lose muscle so we can only preserve what we aggressively try to keep. If you don't start now, this will only get worse.

 

[blahness]

Low level LP user...against a very low level inverted player as I was less than a year into picking up the game. I had trouble with 1500 rated inverted players but I could easily 3-0 this 1700 rated inverted/LP penholder. That's what familiarity with LP can bring you.

I mean how often do those national team members play against LP, particularly those who aren't choppers? Low and short and still topspin, wouldn't a 2300+ rated player be able to banana flick it to hell if he can react fast enough to it, which he should if he's familiar with LP receives? What weird spin can legal LPs even generate these days? There's a reason the top choppers all use SPs now. SPs actually give me more trouble because on some shots they can generate just as much spin as inverted (pushes, serves), on some much less (loops), and on some completely dead (some blocks).

LPs can directly sideswipe or attack short serves to extreme angles (I know how easy it is because I played LPs with my offhand a while back) or short push them, so it's not as easy as saying "just banana flick it to hell". Also a short push to the extreme wide FH or BH is not so easily banana flicked lol.

If you serve long you run the real risk of getting looped bad directly. Also LPs are able to do spin variation between full reversal to no reversal - if you see for eg Joo Se Hyuk chopping a backspin serve it often also comes back with backspin despite the stroke being done by LPs - have you thought why? And even LP serves can have moderate backspin - it's not always no spin, and if they're good at disguising it it's also a nightmare, because the same stroke with inverted will produce heavy sidebackspin or sidetopspin but those are non-existent on the ball - your mind starts to play tricks on you and it's incredibly easy to miss the ball this way because you will subconsciously approach the ball like it contains sidespin.

But by far the worst thing that LPs grant is close to immunity to spin variation and ease of dealing with short serves. So say if the penholder has very good serves that you'll make mistakes on, and then when it comes to you serving, he doesn't even need to read your serves properly because the LP can simply handle it.

I posted a few videos of examples of high level LP/inverted penholders which can give you an idea of what's possible.

But what I'm imagining (there is no such player these days but technically nothing is stopping someone to play like that) - is to combine the LP/antispin game of someone like Luka Mladenovic / Zhou Xintong, with someone with the attacking capabilities like Ryu Seung Min or Ma Lin. Now you can see when a lot of players play against Luka, when he chopblocks the loop short they are pretty much forced to push the ball back - and his FH loop is too weak to capitalize on it. But with guys like Ryu or Ma Lin - this would be just be easy fodder for them - these are the balls that they would enjoy loopkilling against all day long without mistakes lol. And it also solves some of the weaknesses of traditional penhold. For e.g. if someone serves heavy sidetopspin to them they can still keep it short using the LPs then keep the game at short-short-massive 3rd ball loopkill mode. Or if the chiquita happy crowd comes in they can sidespin chopblock the chiquita to some weird sidespin abomination, and then loopkill the push.

There are amateurs in China who play like that who already punch way above their league in terms of results - but none of them have the professional training needed to compete at an even higher level (for e.g. the fundamentals, footwork, FH loop, short game, etc...)

 

[dingyibvs]

LPs can directly sideswipe or attack short serves to extreme angles (I know how easy it is because I played LPs with my offhand a while back) or short push them, so it's not as easy as saying "just banana flick it to hell". Also a short push to the extreme wide FH or BH is not so easily banana flicked lol.

If you serve long you run the real risk of getting looped bad directly. Also LPs are able to do spin variation between full reversal to no reversal - if you see for eg Joo Se Hyuk chopping a backspin serve it often also comes back with backspin despite the stroke being done by LPs - have you thought why? And even LP serves can have moderate backspin - it's not always no spin, and if they're good at disguising it it's also a nightmare, because the same stroke with inverted will produce heavy sidebackspin or sidetopspin but those are non-existent on the ball - your mind starts to play tricks on you and it's incredibly easy to miss the ball this way because you will subconsciously approach the ball like it contains sidespin.

But by far the worst thing that LPs grant is close to immunity to spin variation and ease of dealing with short serves. So say if the penholder has very good serves that you'll make mistakes on, and then when it comes to you serving, he doesn't even need to read your serves properly because the LP can simply handle it.

I posted a few videos of examples of high level LP/inverted penholders which can give you an idea of what's possible.

But what I'm imagining (there is no such player these days but technically nothing is stopping someone to play like that) - is to combine the LP/antispin game of someone like Luka Mladenovic / Zhou Xintong, with someone with the attacking capabilities like Ryu Seung Min or Ma Lin. Now you can see when a lot of players play against Luka, when he chopblocks the loop short they are pretty much forced to push the ball back - and his FH loop is too weak to capitalize on it. But with guys like Ryu or Ma Lin - this would be just be easy fodder for them - these are the balls that they would enjoy loopkilling against all day long without mistakes lol. And it also solves some of the weaknesses of traditional penhold. For e.g. if someone serves heavy sidetopspin to them they can still keep it short using the LPs then keep the game at short-short-massive 3rd ball loopkill mode. Or if the chiquita happy crowd comes in they can sidespin chopblock the chiquita to some weird sidespin abomination, and then loopkill the push.

There are amateurs in China who play like that who already punch way above their league in terms of results - but none of them have the professional training needed to compete at an even higher level (for e.g. the fundamentals, footwork, FH loop, short game, etc...)

If the LP can generate significant backspin then it can't do as much spin reversal. How much have you played with or against LP? If you have the chance, spend 6 months practicing against them. Afterwards, you'll easily be playing 200 points above your rating against LP players.

In isolation, i.e. not considering the shot you give them, is there any spin the LP player can generate that inverted player can't? No, right? Their rubbers are less spin sensitive, sure, but can they Chiquita loop them? No, right? You're focusing on all their positives and ignoring their negatives.

 

[blahness]

If the LP can generate significant backspin then it can't do as much spin reversal. How much have you played with or against LP? If you have the chance, spend 6 months practicing against them. Afterwards, you'll easily be playing 200 points above your rating against LP players.

In isolation, i.e. not considering the shot you give them, is there any spin the LP player can generate that inverted player can't? No, right? Their rubbers are less spin sensitive, sure, but can they Chiquita loop them? No, right? You're focusing on all their positives and ignoring their negatives.

lol, my practice partner (basically the 2300+ player) uses LP which I play against all the time, I also use LP myself on my offhand, so I do know quite a bit. You're wrong about the first statement btw, because it's all about the LP user's technique and not about the rubber alone. Also a LP user can add to the spin reversal not just rely on the rubber. Those who rely on rubber properties are beginner level LP users. It's very hard to convey these messages if you haven't played against "proper" LP players who utilize all the best tools of the rubber, because a lot of LP players are just players with terrible fundamentals who view it as a shortcut of sorts - their "ceiling" is because of their terrible fundamentals not because of any inherent limitations of LPs.

I love how you're brushing off "less spin sensitive" as if it's not a huge advantage - most likely you haven't encountered really nasty servers + 3rd ballers whom you'll be lucky to even land the receive - even if you do so you're facing down the nasty 3rd ball. Serve/receive is the biggest issue for TT, not looping or pushing.

The other thing that may blow your mind is that LP chiquita with RPB is possible and is in fact one of the more disgusting shots you can face when facing against them. But the LP players don't even need to do it - the sideswipe against short serves is already dangerous enough.

LPs can also attack/loop backspin easily (like what I said earlier, the heavier the backspin the easier it is for LPs to attack it - this is well known among LP user circles). Also LP players who have SP/inverted on the other side can absolutely attack loose balls and in fact it is one of the essential parts of high level LP play.

A lot of the highest level amateurs in China (excluding those who trained at sports schools from young) are in fact inverted/LP and SP/LP combination players. If their style was so easily dealt with like what you said, they wouldn't be getting such good results. In fact, I view two wing inverted players as having a disadvantage in the higher level amateur space. If I wasn't already playing very well with 2 wing inverted, I would have started off with inverted/LP penhold play too...

Honestly, I'm surprised how most forum ppl over in the US are just not exposed to these kinds of players given how many Chinese migrate there....

 

[dingyibvs]

lol, my practice partner (basically the 2300+ player) uses LP which I play against all the time, I also use LP myself on my offhand, so I do know quite a bit. You're wrong about the first statement btw, because it's all about the LP user's technique and not about the rubber alone. Also a LP user can add to the spin reversal not just rely on the rubber. Those who rely on rubber properties are beginner level LP users. It's very hard to convey these messages if you haven't played against "proper" LP players who utilize all the best tools of the rubber, because a lot of LP players are just players with terrible fundamentals who view it as a shortcut of sorts - their "ceiling" is because of their terrible fundamentals not because of any inherent limitations of LPs.

I love how you're brushing off "less spin sensitive" as if it's not a huge advantage - most likely you haven't encountered really nasty servers + 3rd ballers whom you'll be lucky to even land the receive - even if you do so you're facing down the nasty 3rd ball. Serve/receive is the biggest issue for TT, not looping or pushing.

The other thing that may blow your mind is that LP chiquita with RPB is possible and is in fact one of the more disgusting shots you can face when facing against them. But the LP players don't even need to do it - the sideswipe against short serves is already dangerous enough.

LPs can also attack/loop backspin easily (like what I said earlier, the heavier the backspin the easier it is for LPs to attack it - this is well known among LP user circles). Also LP players who have SP/inverted on the other side can absolutely attack loose balls and in fact it is one of the essential parts of high level LP play.

A lot of the highest level amateurs in China (excluding those who trained at sports schools from young) are in fact inverted/LP and SP/LP combination players. If their style was so easily dealt with like what you said, they wouldn't be getting such good results. In fact, I view two wing inverted players as having a disadvantage in the higher level amateur space. If I wasn't already playing very well with 2 wing inverted, I would have started off with inverted/LP penhold play too...

Honestly, I'm surprised how most forum ppl over in the US are just not exposed to these kinds of players given how many Chinese migrate there....

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I try to boil every problem down to the most basics, and LP at the most basic level can generate less speed and spin than inverted. As a consequence they're less reactive to speed and spin. That's the give and take and that's all that matters to me. Everything else is up to the user.

 

[blahness]

Haven't played in a while and I feel like I deteriorated quite a bit lol. I'm just using all sorts of variation and tricks to win, but am just not consistent enough in terms of getting the last 20% in - it's like death by a thousand cuts, a mistake here, a mistake there, and I'm falling victim to someone who actually has a tight game.

 

[dingyibvs]

Haven't played in a while and I feel like I deteriorated quite a bit lol. I'm just using all sorts of variation and tricks to win, but am just not consistent enough in terms of getting the last 20% in - it's like death by a thousand cuts, a mistake here, a mistake there, and I'm falling victim to someone who actually has a tight game.

Sometimes a bit of rest can also be good, both for the mind and the body. Do you ever play TT just in your mind? I remember trying this when I was on a trip for a few days. I couldn't get the timing right on the hook serve, so I replayed it in my mind again and again and when I came back I suddenly got it. I could see in my mind what was wrong with my timing and somehow managed to fix it without playing.

I've been practicing the same thing over the past couple of weeks, adding a bit more variation and some FH practice as well. I haven't been practicing FH/BH transitions very much, and with a BH focused regimen I'm sometimes a bit confused as to which side to use when the ball comes to the middle. Not a big deal though. The good news is that playing BH is very natural now, and I've completely changed my play style around from whole table FH to balanced two wing looping. BH training is almost complete, just need to incorporate the BH drive into my game now. I hit it at a pretty good clip in practice, and it's thunderous when it lands. Really looking forward to applying that to my game!

I think I'm gonna start playing some more matches, I need to find out where in my two-wing looping game is the weakest and fix it before moving on to service receives and counter looping. My blocking has improved a lot but it's still nowhere I want it to be. I'll obviously blocking a lot during my trainings though so I'll always be working on that.

 

[blahness]

Sometimes a bit of rest can also be good, both for the mind and the body. Do you ever play TT just in your mind? I remember trying this when I was on a trip for a few days. I couldn't get the timing right on the hook serve, so I replayed it in my mind again and again and when I came back I suddenly got it. I could see in my mind what was wrong with my timing and somehow managed to fix it without playing.

I've been practicing the same thing over the past couple of weeks, adding a bit more variation and some FH practice as well. I haven't been practicing FH/BH transitions very much, and with a BH focused regimen I'm sometimes a bit confused as to which side to use when the ball comes to the middle. Not a big deal though. The good news is that playing BH is very natural now, and I've completely changed my play style around from whole table FH to balanced two wing looping. BH training is almost complete, just need to incorporate the BH drive into my game now. I hit it at a pretty good clip in practice, and it's thunderous when it lands. Really looking forward to applying that to my game!

I think I'm gonna start playing some more matches, I need to find out where in my two-wing looping game is the weakest and fix it before moving on to service receives and counter looping. My blocking has improved a lot but it's still nowhere I want it to be. I'll obviously blocking a lot during my trainings though so I'll always be working on that.

Yeah I think I'm a bit burnt out and need to rediscover the joy of playing... the best shot I played yesterday was a 2 bounce get off a net clip shot (almost a roller which would make it the level of Fan Zhendong's shot against Simon Gauzy). Otherwise most shots are like deja vu...

I feel like it's getting harder to improve beyond my current level without practising a lot, and I just don't have the time for it at the moment. The low hanging fruits are gone for the most part.

There's a lot of ppl over here who practise like crazy as if they have nothing else in their life lol... and they pretty much win not by superior technique but simply by more hours on the table, no matter how ugly the style (they know it too)... to me that's boring af too - I don't exactly know what sort of happiness they derive from it.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah I think I'm a bit burnt out and need to rediscover the joy of playing... the best shot I played yesterday was a 2 bounce get off a net clip shot (almost a roller which would make it the level of Fan Zhendong's shot against Simon Gauzy). Otherwise most shots are like deja vu...

I feel like it's getting harder to improve beyond my current level without practising a lot, and I just don't have the time for it at the moment. The low hanging fruits are gone for the most part.

There's a lot of ppl over here who practise like crazy as if they have nothing else in their life lol... and they pretty much win not by superior technique but simply by more hours on the table, no matter how ugly the style (they know it too)... to me that's boring af too - I don't exactly know what sort of happiness they derive from it.

Do you have a training partner? If you can find someone who's push you to be better I think that'd help a lot too. Or you can switch to LPs haha, winning in a very different way could be fun too!

 

[blahness]

Do you have a training partner? If you can find someone who's push you to be better I think that'd help a lot too. Or you can switch to LPs haha, winning in a very different way could be fun too!

Yeah my regular practice partner is the very strong LP/inverted penholder - pretty much not even the coaches who coach can beat him. I played with a slightly weaker LP/inverted penholder than him and almost lost even...

I can only win when my serve receive is really on point. It's not like I don't know how to deal with any single serve, it's that I can't read the damn spin. If you assume 90 deg blade angle = no spin and 45 deg blade angle = underspin, congrats you would too be destroyed hard. They can serve heavy backspin with 90 deg blade angles, and topspin with 45 deg blade angles lol. And just when you're laser focused on spin reading, in comes a sudden fast low long serve (which also can be sideunder, sidetop, pure under, no spin, etc....) and if you're not careful you won't even get to land your loop much less hit it past their defences.

But the LP users have no such problems, you could hide your serve under your armpit and they will still put it back decently without needing to actually read the spin.

How do you play an equal match up when they don't need to read your serve properly and you have to read their serve super well in order not to get destroyed?

I actually tried playing against my practice partner and asked him only to use the inverted side and Im winning easily. If he only used the LP side I'm winning even harder. It is the combination that really takes me apart. It's just way too confusing and unfair to play against...

This is why imo Ryu Seung Min would have destroyed other players much harder if he had some antispin or LP on the other side. This serve receive advantage is no joke at all!

 

[Der_Echte]

This is why imo Ryu Seung Min would have destroyed other players much harder if he had some antispin or LP on the other side. This serve receive advantage is no joke at all!

The father of Korean pro Jeong Young Sik (Jung Hae Chul) uses LP on the BH side of his J-Pen bat (and he played 2100 USATT level with that setup) and he is quite handy...

Of course the world's best footwork and BH slippery pips can be deadly...

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

• So I am back taking coaching lesson ( after a nine months hiatus ), albeit through a different academy and a different coach. A very young coach in his early twenties. His time-table is more suitable for me and that is why I chose him.
• We hit some FH and BH as warm-up and as a means for him to gauge where my level is.
• He said my FH and BH basic is there already & I know how to properly topspin ( during stroking ).
• My problem is I am slow in getting back to the neutral position after each stroke, which is something I need to work on he emphasized.
• My BH has less issue compared to my FH.
• Then we played a couple of sets just so that he can gauge my level of gameplay. He said I am a FH dominant player and I know how to serve and attack which is a plus point.
• I told him my biggest weakness is serve receive and that I lose most of my match due to poor service receiving skill.
• He showed my how and where to stand during receive, that is, the most optimum ready position for a FH dominant player.
• He taught me how to receive pendulum serves and BH serves during yesterday session. It is not easy, I still struggle at it.
• So far so good, I am pleased with my first lesson, looking forward to the second lesson.