Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

Mine has been somewhat as expected, as my FH is clearly much stronger. I got my spinsight as well and only got to try it out against the robot thus far. My regular BH loop vs backspin is usually in the 110's. Interestingly when I really try to add spin by brushing hard it's still in the 110's, just slower. When I go all out it's in the 120-130 range but the consistency is terrible.

On the FH side OTOH my regular loop drives against backspin is in the 120s while I can get it to the 130's if I loop hard, all with good consistency. These are all against fairly spinny (~40), not super tight but fairly low half long backspins.

Looking at the pros it really gives me an appreciation of how much more I need to work on my BH. They can often generate the highest spin on the BH side, and even speed wise it's just a tad slower. I think the issue is that I'm so FH oriented that I don't feel comfortable getting my body into a completely BH oriented stance.

The thing is that with age and arthritis, I never really go all out. Everything is within a box, so to speak. Even my windmill loops are not what they used to be. IT will be interesting for sure. But that even relative peers were hitting the ball harder is interesting - they struggle with my rotation in matches, maybe my game is really more about defending spin than generating it lol.

 

[dingyibvs]

The thing is that with age and arthritis, I never really go all out. Everything is within a box, so to speak. Even my windmill loops are not what they used to be. IT will be interesting for sure. But that even relative peers were hitting the ball harder is interesting - they struggle with my rotation in matches, maybe my game is really more about defending spin than generating it lol.

I'm not sure if it's about defending or generating spin. I don't really know how to describe it, but when watching your matches what strikes me is that nothing really seems to bother you. When I play, it feels like there's an infinite number of ways I'd be made uncomfortable and my quality/consistency would greatly suffer, but you seem to manage to avoid all of that.

 

[NextLevel]

I'm not sure if it's about defending or generating spin. I don't really know how to describe it, but when watching your matches what strikes me is that nothing really seems to bother you. When I play, it feels like there's an infinite number of ways I'd be made uncomfortable and my quality/consistency would greatly suffer, but you seem to manage to avoid all of that.

That's an illusion, stuff bothers me a lot. In fact, I can find recent matches on video with bad losses where I am visibly annoyed. But I do understand your broad drift.

My position is that ultimately, if you have trained/prepared, you are expressing your training/preparation. I lost and suffered even through matches I won fighting with myself for no reason. I should simply have focused on finding my strengths and finding my opponent's weaknesses and accepting it was okay if it didn't happen. I would act as if "trying harder" would fix my inability to return a serve that I was returning badly even in practice and stress out over the result for one reason or another. Now, I usually just itemize the things I can try, give it a shot, and if nothing works, call it a day after trying. Because the other guy has a right to win too. I just don't want to leave thinking I didn't play well at all and they didn't make good shots to win.

Maybe if my income depended on TT, I would act differently. But bringing the stress of life into your hobby makes it an unsafe space. More than anything else, I am grateful to Brett Clarke at TTEdge for fixing that part of my overall approach to TT. He doesn't even know he fixed it, he thinks I am not stressed when I play, he just never saw me before 2015 lol.

 

[IB66]

Watch the FZD video again. I took 2 screenshots of his BH stroke when looping backspin, tell me the elbow doesn't move a ton?

View attachment 39873
View attachment 39874
If a coach is good, you shouldn't need to "guess" what he meant. I know exactly what he means. Yes, you move the elbow forward/upward (can't do one without the other), i.e. flex the shoulder joint, then you stop (or fix the elbow as they say) near the point of contact to transfer the energy to the forearm. The elbow forward/upward movement to initiate the stroke is critical, it must be done for every stroke, the only question is how much.

That leads to your question of how much backswing to use. The answer IMO is depends on the ball. If it comes fast and/or unexpected, you use a smaller motion, if you have time then you CAN use a bigger motion. There are two keys to recognize here:

One is that while sometimes you HAVE to use a smaller backswing, you don't HAVE to use a bigger backswing even when you have time. Guys like Timo or Jha almost never use a bigger backswing. So long as you use the whole sequence, you'll generate good power. You can generate more with a bigger backswing, but it'll affect your recovery.

Two is that while it's OK to have a smaller backswing, you must have a backswing. As I described in my previous post, the completion of the backswing is actually a part of the forward swing. That is, the completion of the forearm backswing is done by the elbow moving forward while keeping the elbow joint relaxed. To have a backswing then in turn means that you MUST initiate the BH action by moving the elbow forward. It might be so short of an action that it's imperceptible in real time (you saw how much FZD moved his elbow and it still didn't seem like he moved it to you), but it must be done.

The main take from these 2 photos is how low he is. This then links into the shoulder, arm elbow position and the movement necessary to get the elbow higher than the ball.

 

[NextLevel]

The main take from these 2 photos is how low he is. This then links into the shoulder, arm elbow position and the movement necessary to get the elbow higher than the ball.

Though shalt not copy Fan Zhendong if you are over 40 for fear of injury unless you are a supreme athlete - attempting to do so leaves you committed to insanity in the court/office of NL...

I laughed when I saw this video - I was like, if you can copy and learn from this, then you really don't need the video to go pro lol...

 

[dingyibvs]

I had a coaching session last night, first in a while as I've been pretty busy. I feel like my FH is pretty decent now, just need to work on some minor stuff during movement and transitions. It's interesting how doing sessions on low power helps. My coach wants me to use only 30-40% power when I work on my FH. I'm at my highest consistency at 60-80% as that's when I can just loosen up, but below that I need to actively brake my motion. This places a real premium on timing, and I need to pay the utmost attention to it every shot for if I accelerate just a tad early/late and my rubber won't grip the ball.

We also worked on some BH loop, and the main thing he wanted me to improve on was to take the ball a bit later and draw more of a semicircle with my forearm motion. Currently I'm using a motion that's more directly back-to-front, more similar to Ma Long's motion, but he wants me to do something a bit more modern. Combined with my new elbow movement I was able to make some really cracking BH loops! At the end we worked on a short sequence of me looping to his BH then he blocks with sidespin to my BH. That shot is the ultimate stress test for my BH timing, as I would really need to wait for the ball or I'd completely whiff.

Going forward I'm gonna start focusing heavily on my BH. I think I'm gonna limit my FH training to just warm up and then 3-pt only, then whatever else that may come as a part of my BH training (e.g. BH/FH transitions). Now that I know the right motion, I'll drill that down and really focus on timing. Hopefully soon I'll be able to start more game situation training, then I'll finally start harvesting the rewards of my technique improvements. Already, even with just basic training I'm starting to see some results in games, as my FH is now a lot more consistent.

I'm gonna save service/receives for last. That's the highest yield training but winning games is not my priority right now. I already have a pretty deadly 3rd ball attack, I need better defense and rallying abilities and so long as I don't get aced a poorer service/receive game can actually give me more opportunities to do those things. When I first started playing I focused heavily on service/receive/3rd ball attacks, and consequently I developed almost no defense or rallying capabilities. I'm gonna try developing in the same way kids do this time around, getting the basic FH/BH skills down first and eventually moving to service/receives.

 

[dingyibvs]

Had another training session today with a new training partner. I spent a good amount of timing working on my BH, while he focused a bit more on footwork. I think I've gotten the BH loop/drive now! It took me a while to get the feeling, but it's definitely the best I've ever had. Interestingly, per Spinsight my BH loop on average is actually just as fast as my FH loop, but considerably less spinny. I was averaging mid-110's in spin, but close to 50 in speed. For FH loop I can comfortably loop at 130's in spin, but the same in speed.

Again confirmed is that equipment doesn't matter too much in the measurements. But also again confirmed is that for whatever reason, loops from the H3 are just harder to block. My training partner immediately noted that my loops became so much easier to block when I either used his blade on either side (G1 or D05) or my BH side (D09C). That's the same feeling I get whenever I block for someone using H3. It can't be the speed or spin, then it must be the trajectory?

 

[IB66]

Though shalt not copy Fan Zhendong if you are over 40 for fear of injury unless you are a supreme athlete - attempting to do so leaves you committed to insanity in the court/office of NL...

I laughed when I saw this video - I was like, if you can copy and learn from this, then you really don't need the video to go pro lol...

Yeah, the only way I get in that position is when I’m sitting in my favourite armchair and try to stand up - slowly!!!

 

[banbekas]

The best way to check your spin level is in a match.

Again confirmed is that equipment doesn't matter too much in the measurements. But also again confirmed is that for whatever reason, loops from the H3 are just harder to block. My training partner immediately noted that my loops became so much easier to block when I either used his blade on either side (G1 or D05) or my BH side (D09C). That's the same feeling I get whenever I block for someone using H3. It can't be the speed or spin, then it must be the trajectory?

I believe you find blocking H3 more difficult because you’ve developed a mental block about it being harder than usual.
If angle is the reason for it, H2 is a better choice then.

 

[dingyibvs]

The best way to check your spin level is in a match.

I believe you find blocking H3 more difficult because you’ve developed a mental block about it being harder than usual.
If angle is the reason for it, H2 is a better choice then.

Then why does everybody else feel the same way? The feeling is immediate to everyone, even my new training partner who's not big on equipment and changes his rubber maybe once every 6 months to a year. The timing just feels more difficult to get right when blocking.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Unker G versus long-pips push blocker

Last weekend tourney QLY round

 

[Der_Echte]

So Spinsight has given me a new appreciation for my game so far even though I have only used it twice. It has helped me see that my forehand and backhand are almost equal in quality, as crazy as it sounds, and that is my superpower more than anything else. Some may say it means my forehand is crappy or that my backhand is really good, but I will look at it as what my old coach used to call it - extremely balanced.

We did drills on ball quality, and despite being the highest rated player in this group of 3 players, I maxed out at 116 (with averages consistently above 100) in forehand loop to block, while my training partners got closer to 120. So I am appreciating more that my skill is not so much spin but consistent placement. And while I will try to get fitter, I won't focus so much on ball quality as I will on improving the precision of my placement. Work harder on hitting corners and white lines.

What I seem to often articulate to students is that in TT, consistency and placement win... give ENOUGH quality.

A lot of things can go into what we want to see for quality, but none of it matters if the shot doesn't land or lands in a crappy place.

I have always advocated for what @NextLevel advocates in shots... ease of SPIN PRODUCTION... but not every shot needs to be a high RPM shot... even better for VARIATION... and variation comes from having a spinny shot and changing the amount of spin (and pace/placement)

 

[Der_Echte]

Mine has been somewhat as expected, as my FH is clearly much stronger. I got my spinsight as well and only got to try it out against the robot thus far. My regular BH loop vs backspin is usually in the 110's. Interestingly when I really try to add spin by brushing hard it's still in the 110's, just slower. When I go all out it's in the 120-130 range but the consistency is terrible.

On the FH side OTOH my regular loop drives against backspin is in the 120s while I can get it to the 130's if I loop hard, all with good consistency. These are all against fairly spinny (~40), not super tight but fairly low half long backspins.

Looking at the pros it really gives me an appreciation of how much more I need to work on my BH. They can often generate the highest spin on the BH side, and even speed wise it's just a tad slower. I think the issue is that I'm so FH oriented that I don't feel comfortable getting my body into a completely BH oriented stance.

I would be curious to see what my number is on my slow heavy and fast loops. One day I may politely invite myself if agreeable.

I am often these days coaching in San Ramon 5 days a week and able to catch you after coaching for a brief hitup.

 

[dingyibvs]

I would be curious to see what my number is on my slow heavy and fast loops. One day I may politely invite myself if agreeable.

I am often these days coaching in San Ramon 5 days a week and able to catch you after coaching for a brief hitup.

You're always welcome! I'm gonna be working on some things and see if it makes a difference as well. I'a bit inspired by the TTD video with Annette Kaufmann and Spinsight. The whole TTD team managed 110's to 120's in the BH loop vs backspin, similar to me, while Kaufmann was consistently in the 130-140 range. I need to get that into my game.

On a similar vein, I went to the club last night with the mindset of continuing my recently initiated intensive BH training. I knew I wasn't gonna get much training so I decided to play matches with training in mind. One of my frustrations is that while I know I still have some deficiencies in my BH technique, I have a huge gap between training and playing right now because I'm never getting into position for BH shots. When a shot comes to my BH, I just stand there and then more often than not reach for the ball. On Tuesday with my training partner noted that from his perspective, on many of the shots I felt like I was reaching because I mistimed the ball I was actually reaching because I was not in position. That was a revelation to me, and made me realized that I've spent far too little time on footwork on the BH side.

As such, last night I played the first couple matches by starting each point near the middle of the table. It helped with my BH without affecting my FH, but mostly because I was already in a better BH position rather than me doing much better at moving for a better position. I actually did well score wise, handily beating a guy I rarely beat, but that wasn't my goal. I was a bit frustrated so I tried to step it up a notch, trying to play a more Ovtcharov or Jorgic like BH dominant game starting and staying at the middle of the table. I did manage to actively position myself a bit better for BH shots, but let's just say it's still a work in progress. I did way worse those 2 games (I did play against better players).

Last part was most interesting. The top regular at the club, someone who's a nut about improving as much as me, gave me some tips as he's a couple years ahead of the process than me. He told me something similar to what @blahness was saying, try to focus on using the lats on my BH shots. He also told me something I had figured out on my own on the FH side, which is that all BH shots should be derivatives of each other, whether it's a block, a drive, a counter, or a loop. So I combined these two things and we worked on our BH counters and my BH blocks for a short while, and WOW what a difference it made! My control was tremendously improved, and every shot just felt...solid. I felt like I got great contact and the ball really went where I wanted it to go.

As is the case when I was focused on FH technique, now I have a list of things I need to work on with my BH.

1) Footwork and overall stance. Right now I'm not actively moving enough for BH shots. and I'm not solidifying my center of gravity and pushing forward on BH shots the way I do for my FH shots.

2) Focus on activating the lats on all BH shots, including blocks, as it's not just essential to power generation but also control.

3) Relax my trapezius. My coach kept telling me that I need to have my elbow lower, I didn't really understand the point as I see many great players hold their elbow fairly high, but now I realize that what he really meant was for me to relax my traps. Right now my traps are constantly activated to bring my shoulder and thus my elbow up. It's often incorrectly diagnosed as a tense shoulder, but it's really a tense trapezius which needs to relax and activate (just a little bit, more for positioning of the racket than power generation) just like all other muscles outside of the core.

4) As always, get the right timing. I am finding that just as with the FH side, every change in technique, including footwork, will require a change in timing. As such, this will be a constant work in progress as I work on to solidify other aspects of my game one after another.

 

[Der_Echte]

Glad you have a "Nut" at the club @dingyibvs good advice to go along with coaching and failure is a huge thing.

 

[dingyibvs]

Glad you have a "Nut" at the club @dingyibvs good advice to go along with coaching and failure is a huge thing.

Oh yeah, I've never minded structuring training and league matches for improvement rather than winning. Focus and discipline is key for improvement in anything, I can certainly get distracted by the desire to win now, but I need to rein myself in whenever that happens. Oh, and that nut's advice is quite good! I've been working on the things I mentioned in the last post and I'm already seeing results!

Tonight I played at the club, using a more neutral stance in receives, and a more centered stance after service (often during service, with predominantly BH serves). Man I made a lot of nice BH shots, so many more than before, and it got progressively better through the night. I did expect to see results on the BH side much quicker than on the FH side, that's just always been the case both because of a much lower starting point as well as because I just don't have much ingrained bad habits on that side since I never really used it. Opening loops, power loops, rallies, they all stepped up big time. Seems like I'm on the right track, just 3 weeks into BH focused practices.

Going forward I really want to start learning the ability to place the ball where I want. It's not realistic to expect to be able to overpower people with my BH when they're used to dealing with my FH. I need to be able to use spin and placement to win points or at least create opportunities for a FH finisher. I'm just not sure if I should add that to my training now, or if I should keep focusing on the previous 4 points I mentioned (footwork/stance, lats, relaxation, and timing).

 

[blahness]

Oh yeah, I've never minded structuring training and league matches for improvement rather than winning. Focus and discipline is key for improvement in anything, I can certainly get distracted by the desire to win now, but I need to rein myself in whenever that happens. Oh, and that nut's advice is quite good! I've been working on the things I mentioned in the last post and I'm already seeing results!

Tonight I played at the club, using a more neutral stance in receives, and a more centered stance after service (often during service, with predominantly BH serves). Man I made a lot of nice BH shots, so many more than before, and it got progressively better through the night. I did expect to see results on the BH side much quicker than on the FH side, that's just always been the case both because of a much lower starting point as well as because I just don't have much ingrained bad habits on that side since I never really used it. Opening loops, power loops, rallies, they all stepped up big time. Seems like I'm on the right track, just 3 weeks into BH focused practices.

Going forward I really want to start learning the ability to place the ball where I want. It's not realistic to expect to be able to overpower people with my BH when they're used to dealing with my FH. I need to be able to use spin and placement to win points or at least create opportunities for a FH finisher. I'm just not sure if I should add that to my training now, or if I should keep focusing on the previous 4 points I mentioned (footwork/stance, lats, relaxation, and timing).

With BH, placement is much more important. Usually the killer is the down the line BH switch so if you can master that (esp if you learn the non telegraphed fade version with the "opposite" sidespin), you pretty much will gain a decisive advantage which then you can use your FH and dominate them.

 

[Dr Evil]

Now, I usually just itemize the things I can try, give it a shot, and if nothing works, call it a day after trying. Because the other guy has a right to win too.

Great way of putting it. I never met a really good competitor who's not coldly analytical on some level, like an accountant itemizing things, even the fiery ones who yell a lot and break rackets. And accepting that the other guy has a right to win and may win is the best way to free yourself from the paralyzing fear of losing.

 

[Dr Evil]

But also again confirmed is that for whatever reason, loops from the H3 are just harder to block. My training partner immediately noted that my loops became so much easier to block when I either used his blade on either side (G1 or D05) or my BH side (D09C). That's the same feeling I get whenever I block for someone using H3. It can't be the speed or spin, then it must be the trajectory?

I think it's the trajectory. Have you also looked at the spin to speed ratio? Spinsight should add that to their app.

 

[Tyce]

Great way of putting it. I never met a really good competitor who's not coldly analytical on some level, like an accountant itemizing things, even the fiery ones who yell a lot and break rackets. And accepting that the other guy has a right to win and may win is the best way to free yourself from the paralyzing fear of losing.

Funny how sometimes people refer to this as "taking out the emotional part" while one could argue that instead, you're looking at everyone's emotions and not just your own
If I lose to someone because they just did a very good job at targeting my weaknesses and mitigating my strengths, I can be happy for them. (not always, of course, but it happens)