Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

Once I start consistently producing that feeling in serves and shots and it produces a spinnier ball, I'll start making some sense out of it.

Right now, it could be anything.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I know a 2200 Indian player, uses Mark V on a Gergely on his forehand... One of the spinniest forehands you will see. He didn't enjoy playing me last year so he didn't play me this year...

With my story with Dora going Rambo, the Indian guy with the Jonyer-H and the Super Anti, the FH rubber was....yep, you guessed it, Mark V. And his FH was nasty. I think 2200 was about the right level for him as well.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[NextLevel]

Yes , we have somebody here too, he was a state player in India , a lefty and has incredibly good forehands with the old style of play , blocking backhand and forehand loops ... ... but he was getting stuck with the off the bounce backhands of the kids and has now started working on his backhand ...

my question is , does tacky chinese rubbers help improve touch, or softer european rubbers, or its mostly the maturity of the player as a whole ?

It's mostly the maturity of the player as a whole, but equipment does help once you know what you need to solve for and you have an idea of what tradeoffs you have to make. The thing about equipment is that you need to think through the range of shots you need to and want to play and how the equipment supports them on an individual and aspirational level. Tacky rubbers help with a certain kind of control, but they require a level of effort as they release balls with less spin and sped. I switched to Big Dipper when the new balls first showed up as well. They need consistently good swing to generate spin and a fairly consistent contact depth - Carl makes the good point that Euro rubbers respond better to varying the contact depth. All in all, this is an experience and preference thing, and most pros will tell you to use a relatively hard sponge (at least nothing below 40 degrees). But in my experience, once you break 1600 and have a solid loop, experiment and find out what works for you.

 

[ttmonster]

Thanks NL , especially agree and love the part "what you need to solve for" .... thats exactly what I have been always thinking ... that you learn the "feeling" with softer rubbers and then try to slowly transfer to harder sponge that has more gears ..

It's mostly the maturity of the player as a whole, but equipment does help once you know what you need to solve for and you have an idea of what tradeoffs you have to make. The thing about equipment is that you need to think through the range of shots you need to and want to play and how the equipment supports them on an individual and aspirational level. Tacky rubbers help with a certain kind of control, but they require a level of effort as they release balls with less spin and sped. I switched to Big Dipper when the new balls first showed up as well. They need consistently good swing to generate spin and a fairly consistent contact depth - Carl makes the good point that Euro rubbers respond better to varying the contact depth. All in all, this is an experience and preference thing, and most pros will tell you to use a relatively hard sponge (at least nothing below 40 degrees). But in my experience, once you break 1600 and have a solid loop, experiment and find out what works for you.

 

[NextLevel]

now, coming to the original question on how to get the rubber deformation to produce more spin , if that is what you are after, the logical way to approach it would be cut out all external factors and just first learn technique and memorize it as "feeling" ... thats why I said, I would keep serving underspin short ... get the feeling .. and believe me you won't have too many questions or doubts once you get the "feeling" ... then comes the more arduous task of taking it to other situations and replicate the feeling ...

The other good way is to loop to an anti-spin or a pips punch blocker and learn to reloop against the lower spin ball or dead ball. Relooping against a chop blocker is also a good way to improve your ability to loop the backspin ball.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL , especially agree and love the part "what you need to solve for" .... thats exactly what I have been always thinking ... that you learn the "feeling" with softer rubbers and then try to slowly transfer to harder sponge that has more gears ..

I liked softer rubbers for a while and people kept on telling me they were bad for the forehand. Now I felt my backhand was more powerful than many forehands I played against and I never understood what people were saying but I accepted the conventional wisdom over time. Then I heard this guy uses FX-P on the forehand and has always liked softer rubbers. Since then, I ignore everyone who talks about hard sponge being better than soft sponge as an absolute rule.

 

[Suga D]

What do you mean with "Depending on how you want to play"?

In terms of style, or playing level?

Why do you think Chinese tacky rubbers are bad? Are they too hard to use or require a style which I can't quite develop myself to play, are they not good at all for allround play at the U2000 level, do you think they don't have enough advantages over non-tacky rubber in general?

I'll probably stick to cheaper tacky rubber simply because of budget, but is there a reason why more expensive non-tacky would be inherently better for my development in the long run?

I have a slightly different opinion on this topic.
Actually i even think it's vice versa.
See typical Euro/japanese rubbers will do a lot of the work for one whereas with typical chinese rubbers you have to do the work yourself, especially from a step behind the table.

With a Euro/japanese you can sometimes manage to land a ball on the table even if you actually haven't made good contact, whereas the chinese rubbers do not allow halfazz-comitted strokes.
So hence in the looooooong run you might actually be doing yourself more of a favor using chinese rubber... IMHO

But you would probably learn easier and faster with the Euro/japanese rubber, but you always have to keep in mind to not get too lazy and force yourself to always make full sfrokes, whereas with chinese rubbers you ALWAYS have to make a full stroke if you want to reach the same pace as if you would have used Euro rubbers.

I think generally we have to understand there is some kinda difference between Adult learners and teenage learners.

I think one big difference from adult learners to teenagers or students is the amount of time they have.
An adult just doesn't have as much spare time due to job, family, etc., so adult learners would probably rather use Euro/japanese rubbers.
Whereas you young padawan still seem to be young enough to have almost as much time as you want, so it might be worth it to go down the whole nine....

Yes. The reason is called "more spin". Another good reason is better quality control, but it depends on where you want your game to go.

I believe this is a matter of view, and the first sentence I'm not so sure about, but that last sentence i definitely can agree on.

Assuming I want to embrace the 3rd ball attack and short game and I would get coached for it. Then it would make sense to stick to tacky rubbers?

On the contrary if I just want to play an allround looping game, perhaps not as extensively coached, it'd be best to use non-tacky?

Not really. As i have written in my first part of this post... The risk of developing bad habits is way higher with a non-tacky rubber.

But no matter if tacky or not, coaching is still the best option to prevent this from my point of view.

@NextLevel

Based on what I've heard from you: it depends, and we will see.

I myself enjoy the aspect of physically bettering myself to perform better, and right now I'm not terribly concerned in ultimate equipment performance. This is however a beginner's view, I might get a different view as the years go on. No, I'm sure I will.

I think I will go for H3 Neo in a month or two to see how it feels if conditions permit, and then we see if I branch into non-tacky rubbers. I think I need to decide for myself based on my own experience what I stick to in the long run and that requires using more rubbers.

So, short term: Probably H3 Neo
Long term: Try out non-tacky and tensors

I wonder if that Tenergy offer is still up from @Suga D...

[Emoji6]

Yeah, @ Archo, one thing that a Euro/Jap rubber helps you develop is precision with how much to let the ball sink into the topsheet/sponge. Because the sponge is not as hard and is more elastic, and so is the topsheet, you can really play with different depths of contact far more easily.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

This is quite right, with hard chinese rubbers you have to WORK the ball into the sponge, so if it's in the favour of the learner is a different question.
We also shouldn't forget that there are also chinese rubbers with softer sponges.

@UpSideDownCarl

I did not think about it that way. That makes good sense. I will add it to my mental list of pros for soft sponge non-tacky.

How are non-tacky rubbers when blocking and pushing compared to tacky rubbers?

Most of the times they are way more springy and much harder to control, so in the beginning the first few times the blocks might go long.
Same goes for pushes...

my question is , does tacky chinese rubbers help improve touch, or softer european rubbers, or its mostly the maturity of the player as a whole ?

Yes and No. I think mastering touch shots with tenergy will make pushing with other non-tacky rubbers almost effortless.
But a chinese rubber will make mastering these touch shots way easier than those bouncy euro/japanese rubbers.
So in the end it's pretty much like NL wrote above: it depends where you want your game to go.
[Emoji6]

@UpSideDownCarl

Interesting points about the contact depth. The way I could describe it is that I can feel the topsheet grabbing on very well especially on slow, thin shots, but the sponge is a brick. It doesn't feel like my rubber even has a sponge at times.

Maybe using a softer sponge rubber with no tack at all would help me feel the sponge more.

As i've wrote above. There are not only brick hard chinese rubbers, there are also softer tacky rubbers that make learning much easier...

For Archo on the other hand, there are different contact depths and ways of using the sponge with the topsheet for mechanical spin that he is unlikely to learn with 729, H3 or other Chinese tacky rubbers.

NextLevel's point about how H3 is an advanced rubber is worth understanding. A lower level player can use it and think they are fine because it has a lot of control. But they may be getting 2-10% of what the rubber can really do for you.

As i've stated above: We shouldn't forget there are not only brick hard chinese rubbers....

I just wondered why most pros use black rubber for forehand and red for backhand? When I was a kid I was told that red side FH would be normal so I stuck with it. Do you think it is preference or is there actually something to it? Like seeing the contact point better at the serve?

I think this is a bit outdated. The dye in the rubber shouldn't play anymore a factor. But I know this used to be said years ago.

The way I understand it is that blue sponge rubbers seem to mostly be black, and thus pros use them on their forehand because of the blue sponge, and it just happens to be black.

I do it because I wear a black shirt and it hides the contact better on serves, I think it looks better, and nowadays I use a harder sponge on the black side. I think if I had identical rubbers I would go black forehand out of habit.

The first part is pretty much on point, but if you ever gonna play league matches you will understand that you have to wear the team colours and can not wear what you want....

Lot of things going on archo really , so lets break it down ....

1. Looping against or doing anything against no spin is basically challenging your technique and touch ... its just a reality check of what your level really is . Because you are getting nothing from the other end and you are supposed to do "everything with it" . So this is different . Your contact , touch and timing has to be spot on ... lets just say the ball does not grab onto your rubber on its own, you have to grab it ...

2. Looping against backspin is different , against topspin is different , again because the ball already has a bias either way and the options are multiple and easier just because there is already spin in the ball , you can either manipulate the spin , or create your own spin or a combination of both ...

now, coming to the original question on how to get the rubber deformation to produce more spin , if that is what you are after, the logical way to approach it would be cut out all external factors and just first learn technique and memorize it as "feeling" ... thats why I said, I would keep serving underspin short ... get the feeling .. and believe me you won't have too many questions or doubts once you get the "feeling" ... then comes the more arduous task of taking it to other situations and replicate the feeling ...

I just have to agree with this
[emoji2]

 

[NextLevel]

I have a slightly different opinion on this topic.
Actually i even think it's vice versa.
See typical Euro/japanese rubbers will do a lot of the work for one whereas with typical chinese rubbers you have to do the work yourself, especially from a step behind the table.

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/on-tacky-rubbers/

Since I used tacky rubber to work on my technique a few times, I understand this view but in my opinion, it doesn't get to the heart of the matter. The first thing to make clear is that euro rubbers are faster and spinnier than Chinese tacky rubbers. The main reason is that tack holds on the ball too long and slows down the catapult effect of the topsheet/sponge from both a spin and speed perspective.

Where tack helps is stabilizing the effects of close to the table strokes. That's why it is somewhat easier to play close to the table with tacky rubbers in short game and counterlooping. In fact, when I used Big Dipper, my opponents liked to say that it wasn't my opening that annoyed them, it was my countering game and short push control. Even when Archo saw my old match with Big Dipper, the first thing he noticed was how short many of the balls were.

Of course more important than equipment is technique and coaching. But IMO, most players who want to play an offensive game have a long way to go before the short game and close to the table advantages of tacky rubbers outweigh the spin producing capabilities of Euro rubbers. If a player wants to be mostly challenged to play proper strokes, they can just use harder sponge, no need to for tack, IMO. And even then, most of them will realize that they are playing better quality offense with Euro rubbers.

Some people define Chinese play by equipment but Chinese play is really about close to the table style. Timo Boll plays a Chinese style, it is his specific technique and approach that is slightly different.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

As far as the hard vs soft rubbers and high level players issue:

I have known Paul David and Alex Pérez for a decent amount of time. Both of them are a little off their top form and play the old man card even though I am a few years older than either of them. They both are 2500 level players and they both prefer softer rubbers. They are good enough and have enough power for harder rubbers. But they play darn well with soft rubbers.

I think Lebesson is also a great example at a much higher level.

Matt Suchy uses T05 and T05fx. When I had him try MX-P he said he didn't like it because he felt it was too hard. He said he didn't like rubber quite that hard.

So, as far as higher level players needing to use hard sponge, I do think that is a personal choice.

As far as developing and learning, I think that a softer rubber, I don't really care what kind, but a softer rubber, helps make it easier to learn certain subtleties of contact faster.

Originally I got that info from Matt Suchy. The info I got about soft, 5 ply, all wood blades. Matt is one of the guys I got that from. With that information he also gave me this info about softer rubbers.

His recommendation, back then, for a beginner, was something like a Butterfly Primorac Off- with Sriver FX. He is a Butterfly kind of guy.

He is originally where I got the idea of learning how to get the ball to sink into the rubber the right amount for the topsheet to really grab the ball.

As I have gotten better, I have felt why he told me that. I think, these days, there are tensor rubbers that would be fine to start with. But when money is an issue, there are always rubbers you can use.

And Archo is doing okay with 729. But there is something different he would learn with a medium soft modern jap/euro rubber.

There are always more than one way to get to higher level technique. But, ultimately, NextLevel's original point to Archo was a valuable one. At this stage, he would learn more, faster with softer Euro/jap rubber.

As far as half strokes, in the last video of Archo, with that 729 rubber, he made half stroke after half stroke and was using it as a safety response. And the hard tacky rubber was letting him get away with it.

There is a reason he can get away with it. With higher level technique and patty cake strokes, or as NextLevel calls them, love taps, with those rubbers, that will not work. But if you are not brushing and are just bumping into the ball, that works with those rubbers. In fact, it is possible that Archo developed that habit because of the hard tacky rubbers.

From what I see, Archo's biggest issue, at this point is actually the way he contacts the ball. His ability to hold the blade face stable and make delicate contact are things he should probably work on. Soft hands exercises would help.

And a decent soft rubber, IN MY OPINION, would be useful in helping him develop that.

About a month ago I asked Archo to make a video of that ball bounce exercise. He said he would. He still hasn't. It would help us see what help he still needs.

The ball bouncing against the wall the way Marcos Freitas does it against the side of the table would also be a good exercise for Archo to practice. I don't want a video of that though! Hahahahaha. At least not till Archo can do it really well and impress us all.

But, all this being said, for the next steps in Archo's development, NextLevel's point about softer Tensor rubbers would be really helpful.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

 

[Archosaurus]

I'm working on the half strokes. I hate that crap. I'm getting a little bit more confidence in doing full swings. Timing is a big part in that I feel.

It's been nearly a month already? We had exams last week, and I'd been busy all last month. I didn't even notice that time flied. I should probably get to practicing that ball bounce to nail it in finally and then film my attempt. It combined with the serve advice from NL has developed my touch quite a bit lately.

 

[Boogar]

So here is it my shame video

Today i tried to work on "easy" balls high returns without spin or with some backspin.

Just at the end of the session i realised what my problem with the forehand in recent days is!

I dont drop the shoulder anymore before a topspin stroke and as a result cant really put in any body rotation!

I left the club on a good notem i hope i can get in some tt tomorrow!!

Btw: The player in the back wearing a last year china super league shirt was the "weak" player i wrote about.

 

[Archosaurus]

@Boogar

I think on some of your 3rd balls, you could have tried a forehand pivot.

Why didn't you go for it?

I also saw you miss an easy backspin push read when you thought it was gonna go off the end. Maybe just a bad day indeed?

Also a thing I've seen from the beginning when you started posting videos. I hope you don't mind the tip:

Your backhand is very forward, but you hit it. I think you could start backhand looping consistently if you just tried to brush more vertically and straight: so much vertically that it feels wrong, but I think you will see it's about right on video.

You try to backhand hit some backspin returns, and you know how those usually go. Maybe try this out?

 

[Boogar]

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/on-tacky-rubbers/

Since I used tacky rubber to work on my technique a few times, I understand this view but in my opinion, it doesn't get to the heart of the matter. The first thing to make clear is that euro rubbers are faster and spinnier than Chinese tacky rubbers. The main reason is that tack holds on the ball too long and slows down the catapult effect of the topsheet/sponge from both a spin and speed perspective.

Where tack helps is stabilizing the effects of close to the table strokes. That's why it is somewhat easier to play close to the table with tacky rubbers in short game and counterlooping. In fact, when I used Big Dipper, my opponents liked to say that it wasn't my opening that annoyed them, it was my countering game and short push control. Even when Archo saw my old match with Big Dipper, the first thing he noticed was how short many of the balls were.

Of course more important than equipment is technique and coaching. But IMO, most players who want to play an offensive game have a long way to go before the short game and close to the table advantages of tacky rubbers outweigh the spin producing capabilities of Euro rubbers. If a player wants to be mostly challenged to play proper strokes, they can just use harder sponge, no need to for tack, IMO. And even then, most of them will realize that they are playing better quality offense with Euro rubbers.

Some people define Chinese play by equipment but Chinese play is really about close to the table style. Timo Boll plays a Chinese style, it is his specific technique and approach that is slightly different.

The site thought on table tennis is the shit! :O ohh need to read everything.

Btw thanks guys, now i m questioning my equipment again ...

 

[ttmonster]

Did you realize most probably his backhand rubber was dead ? So , one more no spin float push would have given you the ball you would hit for a winner ...
Also, I would have served more to his forehand and been a little bit more patient with the push push rally till I can open up ... he was going hail mary on his forehand after a little bit of rally, so why not make him do that more often ? I don't think he is an easy player to play with especially if you are tired ... so give yourself more credit ... its just a learning process .. .its great that you have video , so you will and can find out 100 different ways to beat him next time ...

So here is it my shame video



Today i tried to work on "easy" balls high returns without spin or with some backspin.

Just at the end of the session i realised what my problem with the forehand in recent days is!

I dont drop the shoulder anymore before a topspin stroke and as a result cant really put in any body rotation!

I left the club on a good notem i hope i can get in some tt tomorrow!!

Btw: The player in the back wearing a last year china super league shirt was the "weak" player i wrote about.

 

[NextLevel]

Did you realize most probably his backhand rubber was dead ? So , one more no spin float push would have given you the ball you would hit for a winner ...
Also, I would have served more to his forehand and been a little bit more patient with the push push rally till I can open up ... he was going hail mary on his forehand after a little bit of rally, so why not make him do that more often ? I don't think he is an easy player to play with especially if you are tired ... so give yourself more credit ... its just a learning process .. .its great that you have video , so you will and can find out 100 different ways to beat him next time ...

Will write more after watching the match but it is obvious that both sides are dead and he is using thinner sponge than a true looper would. Just listen to the sound of the forehand during the warm up - that is not a looping rubber sound - more like pips, possibly anti-spin. Anti-spin or a premade would explain a lot.

 

[NextLevel]

So here is it my shame video


Today i tried to work on "easy" balls high returns without spin or with some backspin.

Just at the end of the session i realised what my problem with the forehand in recent days is!

I dont drop the shoulder anymore before a topspin stroke and as a result cant really put in any body rotation!

I left the club on a good notem i hope i can get in some tt tomorrow!!

Btw: The player in the back wearing a last year china super league shirt was the "weak" player i wrote about.

There is a lot of stuff wrong with your strokes and approach to the game vs dead balls. You may not think you played well, but for your technique, you pretty much did the best you could. You had to play shots all the time using the forehand and backhand technique you showed in the first three shots of the point at 8:48 but on most of your points you have all these wild swings that may work against some topspin players but will not get the job done in general. You need to learn to swing at the ball the same way ALL the time with only minor changes to contact point to create different results. Your backhand technique is too large and flat. Make it smaller and wristier - it lacks whip.

You need to learn to wrap the ball consistently with your strokes. Look at what this guy is doing here - start slowly doing and and build up speed - this is one way to get safer spin on your shots.

http://d5f8dr1gz94y6.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/f89a2fc064c1d4f5ab19a0b3a5798a9a.mp4

There are many backhand videos but the basic motion is to think about unsheathing a sword or throwing a frisbee. In your case, I would work with throwing a frisbee. You have a good reverse serve, so just use your reverse serve motion. What you do right now for your backhand loop, you should just retire it completely.

EDIT: In general, I think you are trying to get rid of the ball way too fast with your stroke approach in general. You need to learn to "hold the ball longer", so to speak. Sometimes, you do it, but try to do it all the time, except against heavy topspin where the approach is slightly different. Try to load the ball with spin and not to drive the ball past your opponent. OVer time, you will get better at being able to select which shot to use.

 

[Archosaurus]

For the first time I woke up, and the first shadow swing I did didn't tense my shoulder, at least more than 10% or so. It's a start.


I think now is the time for this video.

 

[Suga D]

As far as the hard vs soft rubbers and high level players issue:

I have known Paul David and Alex Pérez for a decent amount of time. Both of them are a little off their top form and play the old man card even though I am a few years older than either of them. They both are 2500 level players and they both prefer softer rubbers. They are good enough and have enough power for harder rubbers. But they play darn well with soft rubbers.

I think Lebesson is also a great example at a much higher level.

Matt Suchy uses T05 and T05fx. When I had him try MX-P he said he didn't like it because he felt it was too hard. He said he didn't like rubber quite that hard.

So, as far as higher level players needing to use hard sponge, I do think that is a personal choice.

As far as developing and learning, I think that a softer rubber, I don't really care what kind, but a softer rubber, helps make it easier to learn certain subtleties of contact faster.

Originally I got that info from Matt Suchy. The info I got about soft, 5 ply, all wood blades. Matt is one of the guys I got that from. With that information he also gave me this info about softer rubbers.

His recommendation, back then, for a beginner, was something like a Butterfly Primorac Off- with Sriver FX. He is a Butterfly kind of guy.

He is originally where I got the idea of learning how to get the ball to sink into the rubber the right amount for the topsheet to really grab the ball.

As I have gotten better, I have felt why he told me that. I think, these days, there are tensor rubbers that would be fine to start with. But when money is an issue, there are always rubbers you can use.

And Archo is doing okay with 729. But there is something different he would learn with a medium soft modern jap/euro rubber.

There are always more than one way to get to higher level technique. But, ultimately, NextLevel's original point to Archo was a valuable one. At this stage, he would learn more, faster with softer Euro/jap rubber.

As far as half strokes, in the last video of Archo, with that 729 rubber, he made half stroke after half stroke and was using it as a safety response. And the hard tacky rubber was letting him get away with it.

There is a reason he can get away with it. With higher level technique and patty cake strokes, or as NextLevel calls them, love taps, with those rubbers, that will not work. But if you are not brushing and are just bumping into the ball, that works with those rubbers. In fact, it is possible that Archo developed that habit because of the hard tacky rubbers.

From what I see, Archo's biggest issue, at this point is actually the way he contacts the ball. His ability to hold the blade face stable and make delicate contact are things he should probably work on. Soft hands exercises would help.

And a decent soft rubber, IN MY OPINION, would be useful in helping him develop that.

About a month ago I asked Archo to make a video of that ball bounce exercise. He said he would. He still hasn't. It would help us see what help he still needs.

The ball bouncing against the wall the way Marcos Freitas does it against the side of the table would also be a good exercise for Archo to practice. I don't want a video of that though! Hahahahaha. At least not till Archo can do it really well and impress us all.

But, all this being said, for the next steps in Archo's development, NextLevel's point about softer Tensor rubbers would be really helpful.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

I think i can agree with many things written, and since Arch doesn't get any coaching he will probably have an easier time using non-tacky Euro/japanese rubbers but nevertheless i think it's mostly a matter of preference, 'cause there is not only one correct approach to this, as many ways lead to Rome.
Actually it would be interesting hearing/reading Tabletennis Tony's view on this, but i believe he's quite busy with the World junior Championships in Capetown at the moment...
[Emoji2]

 

[NextLevel]

I gave the Hannibal some burn yesterday. I kinda liked the way it played, but the biggest issue was how it felt - it felt hollow compared to IF ALC and I prefer a more solid feel. I will give the Kanaph some burn possibly this weekend.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

For the first time I woke up, and the first shadow swing I did didn't tense my shoulder, at least more than 10% or so. It's a start.


I think now is the time for this video.

How about this one: