Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[SleepyMaster]

Roses are red, violets are blue,
1,000 serves and two hours later,
the back is stiff and sore,
Play game worse than before.

This serve as self reminder, going to extreme is a bad-bad idea. 1,000 serves takes me about two hours ( including picking up balls time ).

As I personally find out, it is bad for one's game because during this serve practice I did nothing else but stand in one place to serve which translate to during game the next day, I have forgotten how to move my legs and lost all my practice game. Performance is worse than usual.

N/B: A club veteran told me ideal should be around 200 - 250 balls per session. 300 balls is pushing the limit already. 1,000 balls is too extreme. Silly ole me not knowing anything better...

It’s okay just to stand in one place when you just starting and working on proper feeling and brushing, but only for early development. After you get your spin and wrist movement right, it’s better to practice it with more to in-game situation stance.

And again the quality over quantity always.
Try to mixing placement, under/side etc. Its be much more productive when you think for 5 seconds which exact serve you want to serve, and in what part of the table, and then trying to perform it, then blindly serve non stop 100 random serves in a minute

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

As I personally find out, it is bad for one's game because during this serve practice I did nothing else but stand in one place to serve which translate to during game the next day, I have forgotten how to move my legs and lost all my practice game. Performance is worse than usual.

N/B: A club veteran told me ideal should be around 200 - 250 balls per session. 300 balls is pushing the limit already. 1,000 balls is too extreme. Silly ole me not knowing anything better...

as someone who used to do 1000 serves a day, 7 times a week.
it isn't too much.
I didn't do it because my coach told me. I did it because Deng Yaping said she did 2000 to 3000 a day, so I gave myself a goal of 1000. And with a full container of 200 to 300 balls, and ball catch net (and quick fulling of the next container), 1000 serves is around 1 hour.

you learning one part of the game.
if you learn one part and forget the other part (recover), then the problem is not the learning of the serve part, but rather your overall footwork movement had fundamental flaws.

Footwork training over time is actually natural instinct or reaction.
IE, if I was to throw a tennis ball at you, your natural instinct would be either to dodge it or catch it.
Your natural instinct will not be to get hit by it.
You don't need training for that.

So if you can't recover, don't blame the service training. The service training is not the root of the problem.

 

[NextLevel]

Roses are red, violets are blue,
1,000 serves and two hours later,
the back is stiff and sore,
Play game worse than before.

This serve as self reminder, going to extreme is a bad-bad idea. 1,000 serves takes me about two hours ( including picking up balls time ).

As I personally find out, it is bad for one's game because during this serve practice I did nothing else but stand in one place to serve which translate to during game the next day, I have forgotten how to move my legs and lost all my practice game. Performance is worse than usual.

N/B: A club veteran told me ideal should be around 200 - 250 balls per session. 300 balls is pushing the limit already. 1,000 balls is too extreme. Silly ole me not knowing anything better...

One thousand serves is nothing. Just like one thousand forehands is nothing. It all depends on how you are trying to develop your game, we are not pros, but regardless, talking about the results of one set of matches after practice really narrows the horizon. What goals did you have before and after the practice?

By the way, most of my serving practice happens on the floor and on the bed, partly because I don't have a table but partly. because this is where you can practice spin production on surfaces with grip that let you see whether tou are getting good backspin, sidespin or topspin based on varying ball trajectories. I would argue that the work to produce spin in these settings, especially backspin, is probably more important than the table work because the table places too much focus on getting the serve right while practicing at the bed lets you focus on generating heavy spin with technical use of the wrist and fingers and of course the body.

While I never really used the mop to fix my hand placement I did learn from a good server to serve on the floor very early in my TT. This video gives a rough idea of the kinds of things many good servers do to develop their technique. The floor and the bed serves are the main things as well as placing targets on the table.

Some people to end their table practice serving do things like make 5 to 10 short or half long serves with a 30 second sprint around the table between each serve to make them edgy. When you know you are getting more precise, then you need to know you can produce under suboptimal circumstances.

But definitely focusing on results after a specific practice is not how you evaluate any skill in life, same with serving. You could practice less or more, but the big picture and goals are the keys.

 

[NextLevel]

For completeness, I met Brett when he put out videos asking people to send him serves and worked with him on my serves after I had already had some serve coaching, but not in a way that put everything in a structure that made me realize how important serves were for separating player levels (but I was definitely floor serving backspin serves before meeting Brett). Brett easily was my biggest influence on making my game look more standard, especially on serve and forehand. The main serve he coached me on initially was the reverse serve, as you can see in this video here. There were some things he taught me that I never heard anywhere else (and when I say them, people still sometimes argue rather than getting the point of what I am saying - my favorite is don't focus on the first bounce on your side of the table for short serves - focus on the first bounce on the opponents side as the highest level short serves have a bounce early on your side but if the bounce is close to the net on the opponents side, it won't matter since the serve will be both short and faster if both conditions are met - very helpful for serving short topspin).

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

as someone who used to do 1000 serves a day, 7 times a week.
it isn't too much.
I didn't do it because my coach told me. I did it because Deng Yaping said she did 2000 to 3000 a day, so I gave myself a goal of 1000. And with a full container of 200 to 300 balls, and ball catch net (and quick fulling of the next container), 1000 serves is around 1 hour.

you learning one part of the game.
if you learn one part and forget the other part (recover), then the problem is not the learning of the serve part, but rather your overall footwork movement had fundamental flaws.

Footwork training over time is actually natural instinct or reaction.
IE, if I was to throw a tennis ball at you, your natural instinct would be either to dodge it or catch it.
Your natural instinct will not be to get hit by it.
You don't need training for that.

So if you can't recover, don't blame the service training. The service training is not the root of the problem.

i have exactly this problem. Recovery after serve.

Any advice on how to improve on that ?

 

[NextLevel]

i have exactly this problem. Recovery after serve.

Any advice on how to improve on that ?

How do you know it is a problem?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

i have exactly this problem. Recovery after serve.

Any advice on how to improve on that ?

option 1
serve a super serve, that the ball doesn't come back on?
😝

 

[blahness]

I tried a new mechanism for the BH to further improve body-ball connection - the feeling of using the entire upper body to grab and throw the ball out. I think it helped me get a lot more body power into the BH loop especially when opening against heavy underspin long fast serves - also helped a lot in helping me get quality off the chiquita (upper body weight transfer). Also when counterlooping this gives a lot more quality to the ball. More importantly this gives my forearm muscles a lot more rest as more work is done by the body.

But the weird thing is that my FH loop was so crap today when tweaking my BH loop...

Edit: just discovered that the upper body weight transfer feeling also works with the FH loop. Will try to implement it on FH too.

Yep now that I'm looking for it, I can see Ma Long doing the exact same thing on the FH side with the upper body.

 

[OvrChkn]

Tested out my new Asics court shoes and I couldn't believe how I played with my heavy volleyball shoes before. I can actually feel my footing and how I'm planting. It's throwing me off a bit in playing, but I'll get used to it.

Next step is to get out of the habit of hitting so flat.

 

[JJ Ng]

i have exactly this problem. Recovery after serve.

Any advice on how to improve on that ?

Play more matches.

Or in your practice, incorporate more serve and return practices. I think people practice too many forehand-forehand exchanges and too many backhand-backhand exchanges. There is nothing wrong with practicing serve and return with your partner and NOT count the score. Just practicing. So you get to serve and recover. Your partner can return the serve anyway he likes such as banana flip or strawberry flip or whatever way he so desires.

 

[blahness]

i have exactly this problem. Recovery after serve.

Any advice on how to improve on that ?

Join the club at the recovery reset thread it helped me improve recovery after every stroke (serve, push, flick, counter, loop)

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

option 1
serve a super serve, that the ball doesn't come back on?
😝

actually thats part of the problem. I'm so aware of my recovering being slow / my serve being bad, that i overthink my serve, and get the reverse effect: get too tense, serve is not good, get a more difficult receive, and because im overthinking it, im late to recover.

seriously, normally after serving, one should normally feel comfortable because thats the stuff you've practiced most, but i feel already threatened as soon as the ball comes back in matches.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Play more matches.

Or in your practice, incorporate more serve and return practices. I think people practice too many forehand-forehand exchanges and too many backhand-backhand exchanges. There is nothing wrong with practicing serve and return with your partner and NOT count the score. Just practicing. So you get to serve and recover. Your partner can return the serve anyway he likes such as banana flip or strawberry flip or whatever way he so desires.

And I also will add, for better recovery, you should understand such obvious things as - if you serving heavy and fast sidespin/under spin - it’s better to make a step back rather then regular near the table ready position after the serve. And the opposite - if you serve short, anticipate short return first with adequate positioning to it.

So your ready position should depend on a kind of a serve that you perform

 

[SleepyMaster]

actually thats part of the problem. I'm so aware of my recovering being slow / my serve being bad, that i overthink my serve, and get the reverse effect: get too tense, serve is not good, get a more difficult receive, and because im overthinking it, im late to recover.

seriously, normally after serving, one should normally feel comfortable because thats the stuff you've practiced most, but i feel already threatened as soon as the ball comes back in matches.

I have the opposite effect, since from beginning, many of my serves opponents lands out of the table or into the net. I used to just stand in one place and staring at, does the rally will start at all. Bet when I grow up in level, amount of returning serves is increased, plus when our team has gained good server in my person - with time they start to became better at receiving - they naturally adapted to it, plus our coach started to make an accent on serve receive.

So I just start to get in to position automatically: little back step for long serves, more close position for short ones - at least I’m trying to take my focus on it

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

actually thats part of the problem. I'm so aware of my recovering being slow / my serve being bad, that i overthink my serve, and get the reverse effect: get too tense, serve is not good, get a more difficult receive, and because im overthinking it, im late to recover.

seriously, normally after serving, one should normally feel comfortable because thats the stuff you've practiced most, but i feel already threatened as soon as the ball comes back in matches.

Seriously speaking now.
if you have a practice partner, then get the partner to deep push you or flick you.
this would start training you to move

its really about practice, practice, practice and having service return to you, and you moving (can start off from set drill, then later, to open drill placement)

 

[SleepyMaster]

Seriously speaking now.
if you have a practice partner, then get the partner to deep push you or flick you.
this would start training you to move

its really about practice, practice, practice and having service return to you, and you moving (can start off from set drill, then later, to open drill placement)

Practice can be different, there is a lot of guys, that training for decades and doing the same mistakes all over again. But, I guess, they just turn off their brain, and kinda meditate by sending balls to each other, rather trying to make an improvement on something. They sometimes doing drill pretty well, but then when match is starting, there is some kind of “instinct of surviving” kicks in - and they make the same mistakes all over again.

So yeah, practice is everything, but you need to practice with a specific goal and mindset, what exactly you are need or trying to improve. And trying to always keep it in mind - focusing on it. Rather then just randomly “practice”

 

[NextLevel]

So when I asked the question of how you (@Takkyu_wa_inochi) know it is a problem, it is easy to say that serve recovery is a problem without looking at the details. I for example knew when I started playing that I had no chance of using forehand pendulum serves with my footwork issues and always used backhand serves. Even some top players serve pendulum from the middle of the table on critical points because they want to close out certain angles and open up some angles.

If you look at video when you record yourself, you can look at how your body is positioned by the time the ball bounces on the opponents side. You can see how fast you prepare and and ready for various balls on after your serve. Most people are used to playing at a certain speed and against certain returns of their serve, so if you have a practice partner who can give you a wide variety of returns, it usually makes you read the positioning and play faster. But a lot of it starts with how you end up after you serve and whether you get into a position that prepares you for returns after the serve. Usually most players have very little movement to get set after a backhand serve. For a forehand pendulum serve from the backhand corner, the movement demands are typically more, even though there is use of sidespin to narrow the angles.

So I would just work on:
1) what position do I end up in by the bounce on the opponents side?
2) from this position, what kinds of returns do I need to connect my movements to in order to be ready for the next ball?

Most serve returns are cross court so this is the dominant preparation. But practice can make reactions much faster especially if you practice against a high level returner.

It is easy to feel generally uncomfortable with post-serve recovery. But I know my forehand serve recovery is shit, so you won't see me serving forehand from the wide position on critical points or against opponents who can find my wide forehand when I serve pendulum. The most valuable practice is to do serve and thirdball against a good returner like your high level coach for 1 hour with just the serves you use most commonly in a match. Even with his level, some patters will occur. So it is your job to make the serves consistent so he will have double advantage. But just reading his response over time will make you faster and ready for anything. But if you are not in position on the video by the bounce on the opponents side, just note the risk that this serve is giving you because a better player will exploit it.

Not every serve is recovered from with the same reliability and speed and thinking that you are generally bad at recovery obscures this. Sometimes just changing the serve or the serve positioning improves recovery for many people. That is why I asked for how you know. Was hoping you would share some video on what you think is happening.

 

[SleepyMaster]

So when I asked the question of how you (@Takkyu_wa_inochi) know it is a problem, it is easy to say that serve recovery is a problem without looking at the details. I for example knew when I started playing that I had no chance of using forehand pendulum serves with my footwork issues and always used backhand serves. Even some top players serve pendulum from the middle of the table on critical points because they want to close out certain angles and open up some angles.

If you look at video when you record yourself, you can look at how your body is positioned by the time the ball bounces on the opponents side. You can see how fast you prepare and and ready for various balls on after your serve. Most people are used to playing at a certain speed and against certain returns of their serve, so if you have a practice partner who can give you a wide variety of returns, it usually makes you read the positioning and play faster. But a lot of it starts with how you end up after you serve and whether you get into a position that prepares you for returns after the serve. Usually most players have very little movement to get set after a backhand serve. For a forehand pendulum serve from the backhand corner, the movement demands are typically more, even though there is use of sidespin to narrow the angles.

So I would just work on:
1) what position do I end up in by the bounce on the opponents side?
2) from this position, what kinds of returns do I need to connect my movements to in order to be ready for the next ball?

Most serve returns are cross court so this is the dominant preparation. But practice can make reactions much faster especially if you practice against a high level returner.

It is easy to feel generally uncomfortable with post-serve recovery. But I know my forehand serve recovery is shit, so you won't see me serving forehand from the wide position on critical points or against opponents who can find my wide forehand when I serve pendulum. The most valuable practice is to do serve and thirdball against a good returner like your high level coach for 1 hour with just the serves you use most commonly in a match. Even with his level, some patters will occur. So it is your job to make the serves consistent so he will have double advantage. But just reading his response over time will make you faster and ready for anything. But if you are not in position on the video by the bounce on the opponents side, just note the risk that this serve is giving you because a better player will exploit it.

Not every serve is recovered from with the same reliability and speed and thinking that you are generally bad at recovery obscures this. Sometimes just changing the serve or the serve positioning improves recovery for many people. That is why I asked for how you know. Was hoping you would share some video on what you think is happening.

I think that on an higher level ability to execute good first move after your serve is more important, than variety of it.

I know a guy, he is about 2050-2100 he is serving mostly pendulum long heavy under mixing backhand and forehand placement, and if you not looping it with stability, and starting to pushing long, he execute very spiny and low throw loop with 90% of stability. It’s a simple style of serving, but it’s working very very good, bc of stability and quality of his first loops.

He always giving me hard matches, even I know what he is gonna be doing almost every time . So if loop consistently all of the servers first - I will win, if I missed a few, and pushing a few - it’s almost 100% that I losing a match

 

[NextLevel]

I think that on an higher level ability to execute good first move after your serve is more important, than variety of it.

I know a guy, he is about 2050-2100 he is serving mostly pendulum long heavy under mixing backhand and forehand placement, and if you not looping it with stability, and starting to pushing long, he execute very spiny and low throw loop with 90% of stability. It’s a simple style of serving, but it’s working very very good, bc of stability and quality of his first loops.

He always giving me hard matches, even I know what he is gonna be doing. So if loop consistently all of the servers first - I will win, if I missed a few, and pushing a few - it’s almost 100% that I losing a match

Good serves you know how to play behind are more important than variation yes at any level. But even at very high level, some opponents have strengths and weaknesses that you will struggle to exploit without serve variety. You will be surprised at the opponents who struggle with a very specific sidespin to a specific point on tbe table, sometimes long, sometimes short, but who are playing at a 2200 level. But if you don't have the serve, it doesn't matter. It is good to be able to serve all the basic sidespin with variation and then heavy backspin and no spin. All the top Chinese and European players can do this even if they have preferences. Sidespin does introduce some things that mean you have to practice a lot but Takkyu has the right coaches. One of the things that many people don't do but need to practice is to be be able to know how heavy the sidespin they can naturally adjust to is on passive and active returns. No point having the opponent just touch your serve back and you don't know how to attack or kill the return if it is long or high.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Good serves you know how to play behind are more important than variation yes at any level. But even at very high level, some opponents have strengths and weaknesses that you will struggle to exploit without serve variety. You will be surprised at the opponents who struggle with a very specific sidespin to a specific point on tbe table, sometimes long, sometimes short, but who are playing at a 2200 level. But if you don't have the serve, it doesn't matter. It is good to be able to serve all the basic sidespin with variation and then heavy backspin and no spin. All the top Chinese and European players can do this even if they have preferences. Sidespin does introduce some things that mean you have to practice a lot but Takkyu has the right coaches. One of the things that many people don't do but need to practice is to be be able to know how heavy the sidespin they can naturally adjust to is on passive and active returns. No point having the opponent just touch your serve back and you don't know how to attack or kill the return if it is long or high.

My favourite serves is sidespin ones, I like them cause I can get higher ball back and attack it quickly. Plus it really is, that many good players just not able to handle them for some reason. That's how I win most of the "better players with more experience" So serve variety is good.

But if you don't have it - just by using simple variants backhand under/side/ you can play with a lot of success if you execute powerful attacking shot after them