Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[TampaBayTableTennis]

you're witnessing peak performance here gentleman. take note : )

 

[NextLevel]

Interesting insight - I will certainly try this tomorrow at practice. As someone who has done (and continues to do) a lot of work on the BH I am interested in your perspective on racket height at end backswing/start forward swing vs backspin (open up) I have done a lot of work after a lot of feedback from strong BH players trying to keep the racket at or around table height, which is not that dissimilar to playing a topspin ball. The focus being very much on a forward motion, with a contact point slightly lower than when playing top. It is something I have struggled with - it takes a lot of confidence and commitment to pull off, as opposed to a lower start point and then wrapping over the ball to create the arc. I have attached a short video of Sam Walker demonstrating what he was trying to convey to me.

Reading your post again, without seeing your stroke, I suspect it is perfectly fine. The main difference and what makes Sam, Liam and the pros effective is that because of the banana flick and the modern backhand, what they have gotten good at is using a short backswing to get massive acceleration on the forward swing and take advantage of how the backhand wrist structure works. Most people really lock it in when they learn the modern over the table backhand flick because that forces you to use the wrist to backswing over short distances, and then you translate this over to your backhand technique because you see the efficiency it creates in reducing the size of your backswing motion. But if you don't have that rapid backswing, it is hard to gain speed over a short distance.

But the form of the stroke doesn't really change, it is just the rapid acceleration on the backswing, when timed to the ball, allows you to do more with a smaller stroke. Some describe it as more wrist. But if you look at the pros you see it in their efficient swings. It isn't hard to learn, but the timing takes time. And you do need some wrist strength/flexibility.

What Heming is doing with his wrist and lower arm here is the essence of the whip movement, it enables you to pull your racket aggressively into the ball, and you can see something like it in any pro player (the same with Sam and Liam). The size of the backswing will depend on the incoming ball and what the player thinks is required. The physical nature of the shot is roughly the same whether the stroke/backswing is small or big, but the smaller stroke is just an efficient re-application of the over the table backhand topspin.

 

[dingyibvs]

Language is a dangerous thing sometimes. When you say Darko's elbow is moving or fixed, the question is moving relative to what and fixed relative to what. I think that will resolve your issue and enhance your understanding of the stroke. What Vlad really means when he talks about fixed elbow is limited engagement of the upper arm. Its really the same as the forehand topspin and ultimately most TT strokes. I think you are focused on the literal nature of the statement and not the principle. Fan displays the same principle. The range of movement of the elbow relative to the body is fixed because the upper arm is not really engaged.

When your form is right, you can engage the upper arm a little more and sometimes even break the rules and play a bit with more shoulder. But if you learn to get power that way from the start, it will hurt your form because engaging the shoulder tends to affect the whip structure of the stroke.

Language is only a dangerous thing when used imprecisely. I know exactly what Vlad meant, and his (as well as others like him) imprecise description of the BH technique has led me as well as I'm sure many others astray. ZJK makes many of the same mistakes when teaching, but he did get it right on the BH technique. He scoffed at the idea of keeping the elbow fixed, and said it correctly as you did that it's OK to learn it that way to start, but nobody with a good BH keeps it fixed.

 

[dingyibvs]

I dunno man, at the point of hitting the blue Darkos elbow seems fixed and the forearm rotating around it. Prior to contact it moves up because his legs push him upwards but it it seems fairly 'fixed' to me.
I also saw a video somewhere from Darkos coach where he says the same thing about elbow fixing as pivot point.
I can't see in that vid how much it's moving it's fwd (from engagement of upper arm) and how much of that might be body movement v upper arm fwd motion.
Given that there's a 'left-right' movement of the elbow and 'forward-back' movement of the elbow.
I'm guessing that 2500 coach is meaning to have the left-right component eliminated for a good shot , as many people move their elbow from left to right to get behind the ball instead of moving their feet and body.
The forward component is definitely there as you say and is what helps calibrate our timing.

He does move it fwd but this is a BH drive shit v a topspin ball. I've watched these FZD vids a hundred times.
Have you seen his loop V backspin in the same video series, it's a different stroke where he rotates around a fixed elbow with seeming no fwd movement. You can see the BH loop v backspin followed by BH topspin V block and compare both, at appx 8:30 in this vid.

.

Can you describe a bit how you envisage the back swing for your BH stroke, for loops V backspin and for counters v topspin or block?
It's something I struggle with and so BH punch is often my preferred weapon as I find it more reliable.

How much backswing do you use?
And given the Darko and FZD techniques are a bit different, which one do you try to emulate as you train?
Do you try to 100% copy one of them or you have a bit from column A a bit from column B approach?

Watch the FZD video again. I took 2 screenshots of his BH stroke when looping backspin, tell me the elbow doesn't move a ton?

If a coach is good, you shouldn't need to "guess" what he meant. I know exactly what he means. Yes, you move the elbow forward/upward (can't do one without the other), i.e. flex the shoulder joint, then you stop (or fix the elbow as they say) near the point of contact to transfer the energy to the forearm. The elbow forward/upward movement to initiate the stroke is critical, it must be done for every stroke, the only question is how much.

That leads to your question of how much backswing to use. The answer IMO is depends on the ball. If it comes fast and/or unexpected, you use a smaller motion, if you have time then you CAN use a bigger motion. There are two keys to recognize here:

One is that while sometimes you HAVE to use a smaller backswing, you don't HAVE to use a bigger backswing even when you have time. Guys like Timo or Jha almost never use a bigger backswing. So long as you use the whole sequence, you'll generate good power. You can generate more with a bigger backswing, but it'll affect your recovery.

Two is that while it's OK to have a smaller backswing, you must have a backswing. As I described in my previous post, the completion of the backswing is actually a part of the forward swing. That is, the completion of the forearm backswing is done by the elbow moving forward while keeping the elbow joint relaxed. To have a backswing then in turn means that you MUST initiate the BH action by moving the elbow forward. It might be so short of an action that it's imperceptible in real time (you saw how much FZD moved his elbow and it still didn't seem like he moved it to you), but it must be done.

 

[NextLevel]

Language is only a dangerous thing when used imprecisely. I know exactly what Vlad meant, and his (as well as others like him) imprecise description of the BH technique has led me as well as I'm sure many others astray. ZJK makes many of the same mistakes when teaching, but he did get it right on the BH technique. He scoffed at the idea of keeping the elbow fixed, and said it correctly as you did that it's OK to learn it that way to start, but nobody with a good BH keeps it fixed.

If you asked Darko or even FZD about it, I suspect they would tell you they keep it fixed even if the video showed something different. That said, your motives are in the right place, you will see that no matter how you describe something, without a feedback process, it is too easy to get the wrong meaning, which is why true coaching is often the result of an in-person feedback process or mirroring a player often unconsciously and less about following instructions. In the end, these are all whip motions of various kinds, the feeling almost never matches the words. Coaches just try their best to describe what they find critical. I have always found the phrase "unsheath the sword" to be the best description of what I try to do with my backhand strokes. But others might find something else more appropriate.

Even in the FZD video/pictures you posted, most of the motion is coming from the core and legs, not from the upper arm. But of course, others can debate this. He is straightening the back out of a hip hinge more than anything else, something my coach used to try to get me to do with limited success.

Even when I pull the elbow, I initiate it with the core. Of course, there are small adjustments to hit the ball with the arm, but compared to the role of the core, they are fairly minor. You can think of it as either a twist or a breast stroke.

 

[kindof99]

The key is that the elbow is relaxed before contacting the ball. And usually it is an adjustment before contact. Ideally, the elbow should not be lifted before contact at all.

 

[lipt0n]

On saturday, The Dane played against my local team Cheeky little player, really fun to watch

 

[dingyibvs]

The key is that the elbow is relaxed before contacting the ball. And usually it is an adjustment before contact. Ideally, the elbow should not be lifted before contact at all.

The elbow joint should be relaxed, but the elbow itself often moves a lot depending on the incoming ball. See the FZD screenshots in my previous post.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you asked Darko or even FZD about it, I suspect they would tell you they keep it fixed even if the video showed something different. That said, your motives are in the right place, you will see that no matter how you describe something, without a feedback process, it is too easy to get the wrong meaning, which is why true coaching is often the result of an in-person feedback process or mirroring a player often unconsciously and less about following instructions. In the end, these are all whip motions of various kinds, the feeling almost never matches the words. Coaches just try their best to describe what they find critical. I have always found the phrase "unsheath the sword" to be the best description of what I try to do with my backhand strokes. But others might find something else more appropriate.

Even in the FZD video/pictures you posted, most of the motion is coming from the core and legs, not from the upper arm. But of course, others can debate this. He is straightening the back out of a hip hinge more than anything else, something my coach used to try to get me to do with limited success.

Even when I pull the elbow, I initiate it with the core. Of course, there are small adjustments to hit the ball with the arm, but compared to the role of the core, they are fairly minor. You can think of it as either a twist or a breast stroke.

All of the power comes from the legs, it's just physics. Ultimately the delta in momentum of the struck ball is balanced by a delta in momentum elsewhere, and that elsewhere is the earth beneath which we stand and the body part that conveys that momentum is our legs/feet. That, however, does not reduce the importance of getting the upper limb motion correct as the correct shoulder/arm/forearm muscle usage allows for the proper transfer of momentum to the ball.

The upper arm absolutely moves a ton relative to the body, I don't know how you can deny that after looking at the 2 screenshots I posted. The rest of your post I agree with. Yes all motion should initiate from the core, but before I found out the proper elbow motion I had a mighty hard time translating power from my core to the racket. It was frustrating as I don't think I lack mobility, strength, or explosiveness to make a solid BH shot yet despite my best attempts I could not impart power onto the ball until I learned the proper power transfer technique.

This leads to my next gripe about these high level player/coaches. Besides not knowing the exact biomechanics behind their techniques, they also don't know how to teach a student how to learn it. These two things are connected. IMO the best way for an adult learner to learn a new technique is to be able to break it down into components, and then learn each component one at a time, building one component on top of another sequentially. If you don't know each component of the technique, then that becomes an impossible task and can easily lead a student astray.

For example, take the "fixed elbow" teaching. If you learn the BH shot that way and then try to morph it into a more powerful shot or a loop, how would you do it? In my case, I tried to do the same motion but with more power, which I think is a pretty natural course of action. Try to do the BH shot with a fixed elbow with as much power as you can, what you'll find is a very left to right motion. Try to adding even more power to it and you'll naturally have your upper arm swinging left to right as well. I'm sure you've seen this type of motion in many amateurs before, the elbow swinging wildly from left to right. That's how I ended up with it and I suspect that's how many others did as well. Trying to add core power to this type of shot just results in a complete disconnect in power transfer as my hip kicks forward while my arm swings rightward.

 

[dingyibvs]

Interesting insight - I will certainly try this tomorrow at practice. As someone who has done (and continues to do) a lot of work on the BH I am interested in your perspective on racket height at end backswing/start forward swing vs backspin (open up) I have done a lot of work after a lot of feedback from strong BH players trying to keep the racket at or around table height, which is not that dissimilar to playing a topspin ball. The focus being very much on a forward motion, with a contact point slightly lower than when playing top. It is something I have struggled with - it takes a lot of confidence and commitment to pull off, as opposed to a lower start point and then wrapping over the ball to create the arc. I have attached a short video of Sam Walker demonstrating what he was trying to convey to me.

I personally prefer that motion as well. In real matches you oftentimes just don't have enough time to have too big of a backswing. I griped in the post just above that higher level coaches not knowing how to train adult learner to learn new techniques, so let me tell you a trick that helps with actually executing that shot. Instead of just stand in one place to loop the backspin ball, add a short push from your wide FH in between each loop. You don't have to actually push a ball, just act like you are. I know you have an Amicus robot, what I do is set the frequency to 40 balls/min, a -2 or -3 backspin to the wide BH. Then in between each shot I step in and act like I'm doing a short push from my wide FH near the net before stepping back to loop the incoming backspin ball to my wide BH.

If you do that you'll learn 2 things very quickly that ensures quality and consistency to your ball. First is that there's simply no time for a big backswing. You have to swing from roughly table height. Second is that while you have to step back quickly to be able to loop the ball, when you start your forward swing you must stop backing up and press your momentum forward instead. You cannot keep backing up as you try to loop the ball forward.

 

[NextLevel]

All of the power comes from the legs, it's just physics. Ultimately the delta in momentum of the struck ball is balanced by a delta in momentum elsewhere, and that elsewhere is the earth beneath which we stand and the body part that conveys that momentum is our legs/feet. That, however, does not reduce the importance of getting the upper limb motion correct as the correct shoulder/arm/forearm muscle usage allows for the proper transfer of momentum to the ball.

The upper arm absolutely moves a ton relative to the body, I don't know how you can deny that after looking at the 2 screenshots I posted. The rest of your post I agree with. Yes all motion should initiate from the core, but before I found out the proper elbow motion I had a mighty hard time translating power from my core to the racket. It was frustrating as I don't think I lack mobility, strength, or explosiveness to make a solid BH shot yet despite my best attempts I could not impart power onto the ball until I learned the proper power transfer technique.

This leads to my next gripe about these high level player/coaches. Besides not knowing the exact biomechanics behind their techniques, they also don't know how to teach a student how to learn it. These two things are connected. IMO the best way for an adult learner to learn a new technique is to be able to break it down into components, and then learn each component one at a time, building one component on top of another sequentially. If you don't know each component of the technique, then that becomes an impossible task and can easily lead a student astray.

For example, take the "fixed elbow" teaching. If you learn the BH shot that way and then try to morph it into a more powerful shot or a loop, how would you do it? In my case, I tried to do the same motion but with more power, which I think is a pretty natural course of action. Try to do the BH shot with a fixed elbow with as much power as you can, what you'll find is a very left to right motion. Try to adding even more power to it and you'll naturally have your upper arm swinging left to right as well. I'm sure you've seen this type of motion in many amateurs before, the elbow swinging wildly from left to right. That's how I ended up with it and I suspect that's how many others did as well. Trying to add core power to this type of shot just results in a complete disconnect in power transfer as my hip kicks forward while my arm swings rightward.

I dont think the elbow moves a ton and the screen shors are misleadinf because the back has alsonstraightened quite a bit and the hips moved forward and that is key to a modern advanced backhand play.. If I really believed it moved a ton, I would have said so. In fact, you had to shift camera perspective to catch movement on thr basic topspin and then you used stills that show motion but dont capture that range of motion of the back. Mind you, I am not claiming the elbow doesn't move but I dont find elbow movement key to backhand instruction. I am not saying that there arent uses of the elbow that can make yoir backhand more spinny ot powerful. What I am saying is that I have seen peope lose the plot trying to take big swings with the upper arm so prioritizing elbow stability and getting power from bowing and straightening the back/hips or twisting slightly into the ball is where I would start.

There are at least three major backhand topspin swings that people do and without seeing on video what you are talking about in video, it's hard for me to understand what you are trying to say about adding power. If I had to add power, what i teach first is to line up the elbow with the ball which might mean a bigger chest turn or more chest lean. My point in part is that the technique's focus influences the instruction. Even the last time I saw your technique, it wasn't how I would play a backhand. That doesnt make ir wrong, juat makes it different.

With respect to learning, one of the unfortunate things that people who tend to learn easily dont often accept is that there are often as many ways to learn aomething as there are unique learners. I give my way of understanding somethijg but it can be very different from the way you or someone else understands it. That is where a good coach earns his money working with a student who doesn't get it. There are people who I show something for 30 minutes and are off to the races. And then there are people who you show something and then they have to try again and try again etc. Han Xiao is often repeating her teachings over and over and trying new angles to correct students to give new insights. It is usually easier to tell someone to fix a technique somewhat than to tell them the right way to do it. I have found analogous fluid movement patterns more helpful than stage by stage instruction. Swing like a golfer to play a forehand or load your hip or even playing a backhand is in aome ways like having sex. There mighr be better analogies or instructions but what gets a person over the hump in TT is individual. Coaching someone who gets it can make you feel it is easy. But the good coaches IMHO earn their money when they make someone who doesn't get it get it. And that is incredibly difficult over the internet even for the best coaches, especially when they are generalizing vs fixing your technique.

Just about every backhand I know swings rightward, some even backward. So being told this is wrong when you add power to a backhand, I don't know. But it is the limitation of language. Do you believe the elbow moves a ton on the forehand topspin as well?

I have improved a few people's backhsnds by getting them to prioritize fixing the upper arm and getting into position before taking massive swings powered by the torso. Just saying.

 

[NextLevel]

Lin Yun Ju - is the elbow moving a ton?

So here is Calderano doing an advanced version that combines elbow movement with the right spin motion. Is he moving his elbow a ton? This is likely the biggest backhand in the world.

Fan Zhendong... is his elbow moving a ton?

I like this single shot from Darko because it partly illustrates the point.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7526941237241285943

..

Can you use more upper arm, sure. It can accentuate what you are doing if you already know what you are doing. But most people will get the shape of the stroke wrong if they engage the upper arm while learning it. Maybe there is a better way to teach that avoids this. But I would not fault a coach for teaching it likr Vlad did

 

[NextLevel]

Final video: in less than two minutes in, a 2300 coach gets it wrong... teaching is hard...

Just kidding....

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

On saturday, The Dane played against my local team Cheeky little player, really fun to watch

that's so cool! The Dane is undoubtedly one of my favorite players to watch. I go back to the old junior TTD videos and the more recent ones, as well as his channel. He is the wizard, no doubt.

 

[blahness]

Watch the FZD video again. I took 2 screenshots of his BH stroke when looping backspin, tell me the elbow doesn't move a ton?

View attachment 39873
View attachment 39874
If a coach is good, you shouldn't need to "guess" what he meant. I know exactly what he means. Yes, you move the elbow forward/upward (can't do one without the other), i.e. flex the shoulder joint, then you stop (or fix the elbow as they say) near the point of contact to transfer the energy to the forearm. The elbow forward/upward movement to initiate the stroke is critical, it must be done for every stroke, the only question is how much.

That leads to your question of how much backswing to use. The answer IMO is depends on the ball. If it comes fast and/or unexpected, you use a smaller motion, if you have time then you CAN use a bigger motion. There are two keys to recognize here:

One is that while sometimes you HAVE to use a smaller backswing, you don't HAVE to use a bigger backswing even when you have time. Guys like Timo or Jha almost never use a bigger backswing. So long as you use the whole sequence, you'll generate good power. You can generate more with a bigger backswing, but it'll affect your recovery.

Two is that while it's OK to have a smaller backswing, you must have a backswing. As I described in my previous post, the completion of the backswing is actually a part of the forward swing. That is, the completion of the forearm backswing is done by the elbow moving forward while keeping the elbow joint relaxed. To have a backswing then in turn means that you MUST initiate the BH action by moving the elbow forward. It might be so short of an action that it's imperceptible in real time (you saw how much FZD moved his elbow and it still didn't seem like he moved it to you), but it must be done.

It's actually a bit more complex than that. Basically the reason why moving the elbow gives a lot more power to BH is due to activation of the lats which are very powerful back muscles. It's the same movement used to for e.g. tear a piece of paper apart or in a pullup.

The action of the lats induce a rotation of the elbow position clockwise which is the same direction as the stroke. So the racket moves clockwise about the hand, the hand moves clockwise about the elbow, the elbow moves clockwise about the core (and of course it has to be driven by the lower body and core all acting together to rotate clockwise). So you get all these mechanisms working together to give you supreme power in just a small stroke. Any component that is missing will result in lost power.

I find having the forward/upward is only part of the story, of course the rotation brings the elbow forward at the beginning, but as it completes its rotation (during the followthrough) it can move sideways and even backwards - just like a semicircle from 9 o clock to 6 o clock. For eg in big af BH loopkills from FZD you can often see his elbow start in front of the body and ending all the way back to his right hip.

Same as the FH - elbow position is a dirty secret, it has to be tucked near the right hip at max backswing, then it also rotates anticlockwise until it ends up in front of the body which is the direct opposite of the BH (if elbow doesnt move it becomes a cramped salute which robs it of a lot of power). For FH the key big powerful muscle group activated for this movement is the pectoral muscles (chest).

The problem with a lot of people is that all their various rotations are not in the same plane and this is where a lot of consistency and power is lost. It has to be all in the same plane and perfectly synchronized (ie bigger muscles activate first and carries the smaller muscles which are carried along and activates later), so that all the joint velocities (over the various pivot points) all are multiplied and act together to create max speed at the racket.

Fan Zhendong and Darko also talks a lot about synchronizing all the different moving parts which is the difficult part (esp against a lot of challenging and difficult balls).

Edit: I guess the reason why coaches tell people to fix their elbow first is because the elbow can move too flexibly about the shoulder as the shoulder is a ball and socket joint. But if the elbow flails about then the power is decisively lost in transmission (because the rotational movements are no longer in a singular plane anymore). So they prefer that it doesnt interfere with the force transmission at first, then add the elbow movement later on for additional power after the stroke has been stabilized.

 

[dingyibvs]

I dont think the elbow moves a ton and the screen shors are misleadinf because the back has alsonstraightened quite a bit and the hips moved forward and that is key to a modern advanced backhand play.. If I really believed it moved a ton, I would have said so. In fact, you had to shift camera perspective to catch movement on thr basic topspin and then you used stills that show motion but dont capture that range of motion of the back. Mind you, I am not claiming the elbow doesn't move but I dont find elbow movement key to backhand instruction. I am not saying that there arent uses of the elbow that can make yoir backhand more spinny ot powerful. What I am saying is that I have seen peope lose the plot trying to take big swings with the upper arm so prioritizing elbow stability and getting power from bowing and straightening the back/hips or twisting slightly into the ball is where I would start.

There are at least three major backhand topspin swings that people do and without seeing on video what you are talking about in video, it's hard for me to understand what you are trying to say about adding power. If I had to add power, what i teach first is to line up the elbow with the ball which might mean a bigger chest turn or more chest lean. My point in part is that the technique's focus influences the instruction. Even the last time I saw your technique, it wasn't how I would play a backhand. That doesnt make ir wrong, juat makes it different.

With respect to learning, one of the unfortunate things that people who tend to learn easily dont often accept is that there are often as many ways to learn aomething as there are unique learners. I give my way of understanding somethijg but it can be very different from the way you or someone else understands it. That is where a good coach earns his money working with a student who doesn't get it. There are people who I show something for 30 minutes and are off to the races. And then there are people who you show something and then they have to try again and try again etc. Han Xiao is often repeating her teachings over and over and trying new angles to correct students to give new insights. It is usually easier to tell someone to fix a technique somewhat than to tell them the right way to do it. I have found analogous fluid movement patterns more helpful than stage by stage instruction. Swing like a golfer to play a forehand or load your hip or even playing a backhand is in aome ways like having sex. There mighr be better analogies or instructions but what gets a person over the hump in TT is individual. Coaching someone who gets it can make you feel it is easy. But the good coaches IMHO earn their money when they make someone who doesn't get it get it. And that is incredibly difficult over the internet even for the best coaches, especially when they are generalizing vs fixing your technique.

Just about every backhand I know swings rightward, some even backward. So being told this is wrong when you add power to a backhand, I don't know. But it is the limitation of language. Do you believe the elbow moves a ton on the forehand topspin as well?

I have improved a few people's backhsnds by getting them to prioritize fixing the upper arm and getting into position before taking massive swings powered by the torso. Just saying.

Well, if you can't accept that the elbow moves a lot after looking at those 2 stills then there's no point debating this particularly point any further. We can just leave it at that. I agree with just about all of the rest you're saying though.

You can indeed improve someone's BH by prioritizing fixing the elbow. I mean, I did it. You saw in previous videos how I improved my BH. Fixing the elbow is indeed a part of the BH activation sequence. But then I hit a wall, both in consistency and quality. It wasn't until I understood the BH technique more fully that I'm now breaking through it. This ties in with what you said about how personal it might be for a person to get over the hump in TT. My hump was in not realizing that the elbow should not always be fixed, but only at a certain point of the stroke. If you're doing one-on-one coaching, it's probably fine to identify the student's weakness and teach something that specifically addresses that. When you're teaching the entire stroke, however, incompleteness can lead to the formation of new humps in your target audience.

As for the FH, the entire sequence is largely similar to the BH. Lower body power transmits through a tightened core to the shoulder which moves the upper arm and thus the elbow, then when the ball is close to being struck the elbow becomes fixed as power is transmitted to the forearm then the hand/racket. So yes, the elbow also moves a ton for the FH topspin, but it needs to become fixed or at least rapidly decelerated just before contact so power may be transmitted onward toward the racket.

 

[dingyibvs]

It's actually a bit more complex than that. Basically the reason why moving the elbow gives a lot more power to BH is due to activation of the lats which are very powerful back muscles. It's the same movement used to for e.g. tear a piece of paper apart or in a pullup.

The action of the lats induce a rotation of the elbow position clockwise which is the same direction as the stroke. So the racket moves clockwise about the hand, the hand moves clockwise about the elbow, the elbow moves clockwise about the core (and of course it has to be driven by the lower body and core all acting together to rotate clockwise). So you get all these mechanisms working together to give you supreme power in just a small stroke. Any component that is missing will result in lost power.

I find having the forward/upward is only part of the story, of course the rotation brings the elbow forward at the beginning, but as it completes its rotation (during the followthrough) it can move sideways and even backwards - just like a semicircle from 9 o clock to 6 o clock. For eg in big af BH loopkills from FZD you can often see his elbow start in front of the body and ending all the way back to his right hip.

Same as the FH - elbow position is a dirty secret, it has to be tucked near the right hip at max backswing, then it also rotates anticlockwise until it ends up in front of the body which is the direct opposite of the BH (if elbow doesnt move it becomes a cramped salute which robs it of a lot of power). For FH the key big powerful muscle group activated for this movement is the pectoral muscles (chest).

The problem with a lot of people is that all their various rotations are not in the same plane and this is where a lot of consistency and power is lost. It has to be all in the same plane and perfectly synchronized (ie bigger muscles activate first and carries the smaller muscles which are carried along and activates later), so that all the joint velocities (over the various pivot points) all are multiplied and act together to create max speed at the racket.

Fan Zhendong and Darko also talks a lot about synchronizing all the different moving parts which is the difficult part (esp against a lot of challenging and difficult balls).

Edit: I guess the reason why coaches tell people to fix their elbow first is because the elbow can move too flexibly about the shoulder as the shoulder is a ball and socket joint. But if the elbow flails about then the power is decisively lost in transmission (because the rotational movements are no longer in a singular plane anymore). So they prefer that it doesnt interfere with the force transmission at first, then add the elbow movement later on for additional power after the stroke has been stabilized.

I largely agree with you though I think the described action of the Lats is a bit incomplete. The strongest action of the Lats on the arm is that of extension (i.e. pulling it backwards), so what it essentially does is making the forward going elbow quickly decelerate and transmit its power forward into the forearm and onwards.

Imagine a horizontal stick (i.e. your forearm, with the racket on one end and the elbow on the other) moving forward perpendicular to its orientation, if you suddenly yank on one end and stop that end's forward momentum then the other end will snap forward with increased speed, drawing a circle with the center at the stopped end. If you also pull the "stopped" end inward instead of just backward then it gets complicated. If the same magnitude of impulse is used then you'd end up with a slower velocity for the racket, potentially only a 33% increase in velocity rather than 50%, if the rotation is about the center of the forearm, but the impulse should be stronger because you're adding adduction to extension and the rotation also won't be at the center of the forearm but still very close to the elbow's original location.

Synchronizing these motions is indeed hard. I'm currently facing the same issues as when I was correcting my FH technique. These adjustments all result in changes in timing, and it's so easy to mistime the ball when you have so many variations of speed and spin on the ball, especially in real game situations. If I have a bit of time though, such as looping backspins or single bounce serves, it's already making a huge difference.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, if you can't accept that the elbow moves a lot after looking at those 2 stills then there's no point debating this particularly point any further. We can just leave it at that. I agree with just about all of the rest you're saying though.

You can indeed improve someone's BH by prioritizing fixing the elbow. I mean, I did it. You saw in previous videos how I improved my BH. Fixing the elbow is indeed a part of the BH activation sequence. But then I hit a wall, both in consistency and quality. It wasn't until I understood the BH technique more fully that I'm now breaking through it. This ties in with what you said about how personal it might be for a person to get over the hump in TT. My hump was in not realizing that the elbow should not always be fixed, but only at a certain point of the stroke. If you're doing one-on-one coaching, it's probably fine to identify the student's weakness and teach something that specifically addresses that. When you're teaching the entire stroke, however, incompleteness can lead to the formation of new humps in your target audience.

As for the FH, the entire sequence is largely similar to the BH. Lower body power transmits through a tightened core to the shoulder which moves the upper arm and thus the elbow, then when the ball is close to being struck the elbow becomes fixed as power is transmitted to the forearm then the hand/racket. So yes, the elbow also moves a ton for the FH topspin, but it needs to become fixed or at least rapidly decelerated just before contact so power may be transmitted onward toward the racket.

First of all, people can watch the videos that the stills were taken from and decide how much was driven by the core and how much eas driven by the upper arm. The stills do not convey the change in body orientation to the untrained eye and while the upper arm is used, it is far from the essence of the stroke.

The most important thing is that you find technique that works for you. Your posts show you understand what is happening at a level of detail that would make most players fall asleep.

There are a lot of things that moved in those FZD stills whose impacts are easy to underestimate when looking at them vs performing the stroke and that if you asked the players whether they moved their elbows, they might actually tell you no because a lot of technique is about the feeling of what happens and not always about what you consciously do. But if moving the elbow works for you on forehand or backhand (again no one is talking about absolute movement, the movement of the upper arm is the issue) and feeling like it moves works for you, it works for you, you are an advanced enough player to make your own assessments. Just realize that there are good players who could contradict most of what you wrote about the backhand topspin or forehand topspin and still teach it reasonably well. It's more important just get coaching and have someone see and fix your backhand than to believe verbal instruction on how it should feel is right or wrong. Same with the forehand topspin as well.

In the end, the instruction was probably not advanced enough for you. But very few advanced players will use internet tutorials to learn the nuances of advanced technique. Good luck!

 

[dingyibvs]

First of all, people can watch the videos that the stills were taken from and decide how much was driven by the core and how much eas driven by the upper arm. The stills do not convey the change in body orientation to the untrained eye and while the upper arm is used, it is far from the essence of the stroke.

The most important thing is that you find technique that works for you. Your posts show you understand what is happening at a level of detail that would make most players fall asleep.

There are a lot of things that moved in those FZD stills whose impacts are easy to underestimate when looking at them vs performing the stroke and that if you asked the players whether they moved their elbows, they might actually tell you no because a lot of technique is about the feeling of what happens and not always about what you consciously do. But if moving the elbow works for you on forehand or backhand (again no one is talking about absolute movement, the movement of the upper arm is the issue) and feeling like it moves works for you, it works for you, you are an advanced enough player to make your own assessments. Just realize that there are good players who could contradict most of what you wrote about the backhand topspin or forehand topspin and still teach it reasonably well. It's more important just get coaching and have someone see and fix your backhand than to believe verbal instruction on how it should feel is right or wrong. Same with the forehand topspin as well.

In the end, the instruction was probably not advanced enough for you. But very few advanced players will use internet tutorials to learn the nuances of advanced technique. Good luck!

I don't think we really need to debate the elbow position any further. Anyone with eyes can see where the elbow is in one picture and where it is a moment later. You're not gonna gaslight me into thinking it's just some sort of optical illusion. The illusion in fact is the idea that it doesn't move, whether by feel and or by video in some angles.

Now, we can discuss the rest of your points. What you said in the rest of the post I generally agree with. That moving the elbow is important does not mean that other parts of FZD's movement are not important. Similarly, knowing what actually happens biomechanically with a stroke does not lessen the need to know the "feeling" of a stroke either. I certainly don't disagree with any of that.

As for whether someone can teach it well without understanding the ins and outs of everything they teach, I think that's impossible to verify, so we can only talk theories here. My theory is that you do need to know the ins and outs of everything you teach to successfully transform an adult learner with years of bad ingrained habits. This touches on another part of your statement that I partially disagree with. You questioned what is the "essence" of the BH stroke, my opinion is that there isn't really an essence to any stroke. From toe to fingertip everything works together, a chain (of activation) is only as strong as its weakest link.

As Seth Pech (one of the best teachers online IMO) put it, don't think of improving a technique as "improving", think of it as learning a new technique. For your typical adult learner you often have deconstruct their entire stroke, so understanding how every joint and muscle works to contribute to the stroke is IMO a big time-saver. As I'm sure you already know, trying to learn the entirety of a stroke at once is an impossible task. If it can be broken down into parts, and have the students focus on one section at a time with a particular exercise (e.g. Seth's "chair method" for developing the correct BH timing) and then build another onto it one at a time, that'd be IMO a much more efficient way to learn. The specific tactic can vary, e.g. maybe instead of the "chair method" you can use visualization, overcorrection, description of a feeling, etc. depending on the specific individual, but the overall strategy IMO should be the same. In that vein, I'm perfectly OK with a coach teaching fixed elbow to the student, so long as he understands that at some point of time he also needs to teach the student how and when to move it.

 

[blahness]

I largely agree with you though I think the described action of the Lats is a bit incomplete. The strongest action of the Lats on the arm is that of extension (i.e. pulling it backwards), so what it essentially does is making the forward going elbow quickly decelerate and transmit its power forward into the forearm and onwards.

Imagine a horizontal stick (i.e. your forearm, with the racket on one end and the elbow on the other) moving forward perpendicular to its orientation, if you suddenly yank on one end and stop that end's forward momentum then the other end will snap forward with increased speed, drawing a circle with the center at the stopped end. If you also pull the "stopped" end inward instead of just backward then it gets complicated. If the same magnitude of impulse is used then you'd end up with a slower velocity for the racket, potentially only a 33% increase in velocity rather than 50%, if the rotation is about the center of the forearm, but the impulse should be stronger because you're adding adduction to extension and the rotation also won't be at the center of the forearm but still very close to the elbow's original location.

Synchronizing these motions is indeed hard. I'm currently facing the same issues as when I was correcting my FH technique. These adjustments all result in changes in timing, and it's so easy to mistime the ball when you have so many variations of speed and spin on the ball, especially in real game situations. If I have a bit of time though, such as looping backspins or single bounce serves, it's already making a huge difference.

Yes i think the way you describe it is how I feel too, it is the most powerful when i get to feel that 'pull back' and 'sudden stop' in the forward momentum which somehow makes the whip effect stronger. For me i can also do BH countering / loop without this 'lat pull' mechanism but imo it is weaker. The 'lat pull' mechanism really makes the ball higher quality. I guess if you have SpinSight now you can always experiment and objectively measure the difference in quality lol.

Timing is the hardest issue imo.... exactly because the opponent's ball is always different.