Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Tyce]

I was a little bit too much in my head for league tonight. Did manage to win both my singles, but it was way too close for comfort. On the other hand, my experience shows at 8-10 and I know I can equalise it. We played two young guys, pretty new to the game but they're going to improve a lot over this season (their first at this level).
First mistake, we started warming up with our own ball. Their game ball was a lot harder which is great, but not when you have to switch from a lighter one.
Second, I clearly lack trust in my gear despite not having played anything else in the past few weeks. It took so long to get the first couple of good strong FH in, by then it was 2-2 already. Actually I was 1-2 behind, too. By the 5th I was convinced and somehow wiped him off completely. This just shows how I have to dig too deep to make proper use of things.
Second one was a bit easier. Still lacking confidence but he just made a lot more mistakes.
Total haul, 9 rating points. Last week it was just 7. Gotta appreciate the small things, sure, but this is very small.

We did take the top position, but we're playing number 2 next week and I know they're tough as nails.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Played a round robin tourney last Saturday in a lower league. Was n2 out of 12. First easy match . Second match played an all round player n1 that beated me last time. It was 0-3 again. He was retrieving a lot of balls with a very curvy sidespin with his hook FH I wasn’t carefully enough. Also wasn’t good in receive I injured my lower back during g2 but the way I was playing I deserved to lose. But it was mostly on my side for lacking focus and conviction

Next two matches I could only block and play BH as the pain grew harder but managed to win with consistency and serves.

I took a few days off and tried to play again same kind of tournament as the pain seemed to have gone away

First match was against a higher ranked guy but he feared me because we had close matches before and I won last time a training match recently. He was very nervous and faulted 3 times giving me g1. But then I put on too much pressure on myself and lost my mind when I couldn’t see properly his knuckle serve and popped up the ball . Lost 4-11 g2 and g3
I played much much better g4 finally receiving normally and playing much more aggressive . Was always in the lead got a few game points also went 12-11 but lost 12-13 (not typo, golden point rule)

Second match against bottom guy (i was last to bottom). He has good defense. Again my serve receive lacked quality which made the game not easy. 2 games all. G5 started at 6-6 1 serve each. I saved a big point in defense and got match point first then saved one . 12-11 again but he surprised me with a long heavy cut serve and I choked on the golden point despite having the serve.

Third guy was injured leading to 3-0 easily
Fourth guy was an old chopper. Had a 6-0 lead . Scored another point. He said it was 6-1 not 7-0. No referee. Argument. Had the point replayed , lost my focus , lost the game, lost the match. Ridiculous from me

Fifth guy was a much higher ranked teammate. Haven’t beaten him even once in practice for years. But we played only long ago against each other in tournament . I really wanted the win and fought hard and played very well. Got 4 match points in G5 but lost again 12-13 after leading 12-11. I was very upset at the end 😭

The last match was a joke . Top ranked guy, a leftie. The other side was LP so I assumed wrongly it was inverted on FH. The ball seemed slow so I thought it was the blade’s fault. 🤡. Somehow I almost won g2 8-4 lead. 9-11 without even noticing lol. But G1 and G3 score was wide. Guy showed me his racket but didn’t say anything…

Back was painful again after the tournament .
Now doc said I need at least 1 week full rest .

Ranking is sick too. Near Lowest in 2 years

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks. The main reason I ask is that the options one has for playing stronger opponents tend to narrow as the speed and spin of the game increases. So it is always important to put style in context.

People see my game and call it extremely aggressive. But they don't realize it is really conservative, the main thing I do is try to open on anything that comes long because I don't back off the table so I don't trust my defense to hold the point if I don't take control of it. But internally, my style is largely conservative on the risk and reward spectrum. Most of my play is tied to how I have trained and the patterns I have developed for winning points.

I also prefer to use things other than looping hard to win points. But as you face players who are more and more disciplined about playing a topspin once the ball provides the opportunity, it gets harder and harder to use other things unless you have a system that has a way of forcing that on them.

So I think internal approach has to be separated from the external manifestation. How you play is just a tool to an end.

@NextLevel is a Rambo Looper all the way.

 

[dingyibvs]

So here are some clips of my coaching session today showing where my technique is at right now:

We worked on a number of things:

FH: Most recent improvements are in more effective energy transfer from hip rotation to the arm. Next up I'll be trying to load my right leg a bit more, and try to pay more attention to hitting the ball with my racket's sweet spot.

BH: I've mentioned all my recent improvements in my recent posts, it's actually kinda hard to see on video. The feel is quite different though, and massive improvements in consistency already. Next up I'll try to add a bit more body to the shot. I've found that focusing on lining up the shot with my body really helps with footwork and adjusting to the height of the ball, on both FH and BH.

Smashes: I rarely get opportunities to practice it, but it seems like it's kinda like a FH drive just with the racket starting higher.

FH/BH transitions: Today the focus was more on FH, specifically to do more backswing but with the hip. When I don't do that I either get jammed when it comes to my elbow or kick forward too much to compensate for the lack of backward hip rotation, resulting in too big of a follow through. Still need to work on that.

FH vs backspin: Today the focus was on footwork combined with lower more hip backswing. The issue is the same as above, I often have too big of a follow through and therefore isn't ready for the next shot. With more hip backswing I can finish in a more neutral position, facing forward instead of to my left, thus being more ready for the next shot.

BH vs backspin: Just started working on this yesterday using the new techniques. The recent focus on service receives with shorter backswing as well as higher backswing against topspins has made my backswing (both body and arm) vs backspin a bit too high. Worked on improving that today as well as a more compact forward swing. Still need to work on that.

 

[NextLevel]

So here are some clips of my coaching session today showing where my technique is at right now:

We worked on a number of things:

FH: Most recent improvements are in more effective energy transfer from hip rotation to the arm. Next up I'll be trying to load my right leg a bit more, and try to pay more attention to hitting the ball with my racket's sweet spot.

BH: I've mentioned all my recent improvements in my recent posts, it's actually kinda hard to see on video. The feel is quite different though, and massive improvements in consistency already. Next up I'll try to add a bit more body to the shot. I've found that focusing on lining up the shot with my body really helps with footwork and adjusting to the height of the ball, on both FH and BH.

Smashes: I rarely get opportunities to practice it, but it seems like it's kinda like a FH drive just with the racket starting higher.

FH/BH transitions: Today the focus was more on FH, specifically to do more backswing but with the hip. When I don't do that I either get jammed when it comes to my elbow or kick forward too much to compensate for the lack of backward hip rotation, resulting in too big of a follow through. Still need to work on that.

FH vs backspin: Today the focus was on footwork combined with lower more hip backswing. The issue is the same as above, I often have too big of a follow through and therefore isn't ready for the next shot. With more hip backswing I can finish in a more neutral position, facing forward instead of to my left, thus being more ready for the next shot.

BH vs backspin: Just started working on this yesterday using the new techniques. The recent focus on service receives with shorter backswing as well as higher backswing against topspins has made my backswing (both body and arm) vs backspin a bit too high. Worked on improving that today as well as a more compact forward swing. Still need to work on that.

You seem to have almost passed that threshold that people can no longer tell at what age you learned, except maybe you are still more physically restrained than people who learned athletically young are, but that might change in a different drill.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

So here are some clips of my coaching session today showing where my technique is at right now:

We worked on a number of things:

FH: Most recent improvements are in more effective energy transfer from hip rotation to the arm. Next up I'll be trying to load my right leg a bit more, and try to pay more attention to hitting the ball with my racket's sweet spot.

BH: I've mentioned all my recent improvements in my recent posts, it's actually kinda hard to see on video. The feel is quite different though, and massive improvements in consistency already. Next up I'll try to add a bit more body to the shot. I've found that focusing on lining up the shot with my body really helps with footwork and adjusting to the height of the ball, on both FH and BH.

Smashes: I rarely get opportunities to practice it, but it seems like it's kinda like a FH drive just with the racket starting higher.

FH/BH transitions: Today the focus was more on FH, specifically to do more backswing but with the hip. When I don't do that I either get jammed when it comes to my elbow or kick forward too much to compensate for the lack of backward hip rotation, resulting in too big of a follow through. Still need to work on that.

FH vs backspin: Today the focus was on footwork combined with lower more hip backswing. The issue is the same as above, I often have too big of a follow through and therefore isn't ready for the next shot. With more hip backswing I can finish in a more neutral position, facing forward instead of to my left, thus being more ready for the next shot.

BH vs backspin: Just started working on this yesterday using the new techniques. The recent focus on service receives with shorter backswing as well as higher backswing against topspins has made my backswing (both body and arm) vs backspin a bit too high. Worked on improving that today as well as a more compact forward swing. Still need to work on that.

Nice good work

 

[dingyibvs]

You seem to have almost passed that threshold that people can no longer tell at what age you learned, except maybe you are still more physically restrained than people who learned athletically young are, but that might change in a different drill.

Ha, in a drill perhaps, I'm far from that in matches! It's getting better, my club time these days is mostly spent trying to find any disconnect between match play and training form, then finding ways to bridge those gaps in practice. Coaching sessions are mostly for me to refine the base form, training sessions with training partners and robots are for improving consistency of base form as well as drills that are more match relevant.

In the training footages I showed above, I still had to really focus on driving with the hip on the FH side, for example, or else I'd end up with a motion that's too driven by shoulder. In the BH drill after the first few shots he had to remind me to relax more, which as you know is something I've been working on the past few weeks. For the FH loop vs. backspin my default shot in matches is still with a lot of body rotation resulting in poor recovery.

And these are just things I've been working on, there are so many things that I haven't even started working on yet! I suppose that's the great thing about TT, so many little intricate details that you can just almost endlessly work on and improve on.

 

[latej]

And these are just things I've been working on, there are so many things that I haven't even started working on yet! I suppose that's the great thing about TT, so many little intricate details that you can just almost endlessly work on and improve on.

Yes, exactly...

But now let's discuss whether the D09C is good for me, shall we?

P.S. Regarding the video, when I'm already typing, I would suggest one thing to try - to focus more on the non-playing hand. This may guide you, I hope. You're abs. right that the motion should be coming from legs to hips to arm, and you do this - however you don't use your non-playing hand much. It's not bad, I'd say it's more like ZJK and he obv. has excellent FH. But for me, the position of the non-playing hand at hit time is a proof that the body moved correctly and esp. that the chest is open and so the playing hand has place where to go, so to say.

 

[d3nium]

I'm playing against the TTD silent assassin in local league tonight. I managed to get a set off him so I'm very happy lol.

He's an amazing player.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, exactly...

But now let's discuss whether the D09C is good for me, shall we?

P.S. Regarding the video, when I'm already typing, I would suggest one thing to try - to focus more on the non-playing hand. This may guide you, I hope. You're abs. right that the motion should be coming from legs to hips to arm, and you do this - however you don't use your non-playing hand much. It's not bad, I'd say it's more like ZJK and he obv. has excellent FH. But for me, the position of the non-playing hand at hit time is a proof that the body moved correctly and esp. that the chest is open and so the playing hand has place where to go, so to say.

Thanks, I haven't really explored that topic before, gonna have to look into it a bit more. I've noticed that my off hand is a bit "droopier" than pros. Maybe I'll try something like guiding the ball in with my off hand or something, see if it can help my timing and footwork.

 

[blahness]

So here are some clips of my coaching session today showing where my technique is at right now:

We worked on a number of things:

FH: Most recent improvements are in more effective energy transfer from hip rotation to the arm. Next up I'll be trying to load my right leg a bit more, and try to pay more attention to hitting the ball with my racket's sweet spot.

BH: I've mentioned all my recent improvements in my recent posts, it's actually kinda hard to see on video. The feel is quite different though, and massive improvements in consistency already. Next up I'll try to add a bit more body to the shot. I've found that focusing on lining up the shot with my body really helps with footwork and adjusting to the height of the ball, on both FH and BH.

Smashes: I rarely get opportunities to practice it, but it seems like it's kinda like a FH drive just with the racket starting higher.

FH/BH transitions: Today the focus was more on FH, specifically to do more backswing but with the hip. When I don't do that I either get jammed when it comes to my elbow or kick forward too much to compensate for the lack of backward hip rotation, resulting in too big of a follow through. Still need to work on that.

FH vs backspin: Today the focus was on footwork combined with lower more hip backswing. The issue is the same as above, I often have too big of a follow through and therefore isn't ready for the next shot. With more hip backswing I can finish in a more neutral position, facing forward instead of to my left, thus being more ready for the next shot.

BH vs backspin: Just started working on this yesterday using the new techniques. The recent focus on service receives with shorter backswing as well as higher backswing against topspins has made my backswing (both body and arm) vs backspin a bit too high. Worked on improving that today as well as a more compact forward swing. Still need to work on that.

Tbh you have come a long, long way now! This already looks as good as someone who had proper training from young and that is probably as good as it gets from an amateur point of view.

However, converting these to match situations is a bit more tricky imo.... which is why I suspect that working on serve, receive and 3rd ball point patterns are the lowest hanging fruits at the moment compared to further perfecting topspin mechanics.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Tbh you have come a long, long way now! This already looks as good as someone who had proper training from young and that is probably as good as it gets from an amateur point of view.

However, converting these to match situations is a bit more tricky imo.... which is why I suspect that working on serve, receive and 3rd ball point patterns are the lowest hanging fruits at the moment compared to further perfecting topspin mechanics.

I totally agree. Its really impressive how you improved in so little time.

However, its reached the point where its almost "too" good ie. There will be many players how will look not as good at those drills, or can't do them with as much consistency, and still you play them 20 times, they will beat you 20 times 3-0. and that would be frustrating but its because they spent more time practicing skills directly useful in match play.

Regarding the drills themselves: now you should move on from static to multi-point, with footwork. of course BH/FH transition but all around the table, also different depth etc... But as @blahness said serve/receive/3rd ball is now where most of the effort should be directed. and that should include a minimum of short ball techniques to have a few solutions for each different serve.

 

[dingyibvs]

Tbh you have come a long, long way now! This already looks as good as someone who had proper training from young and that is probably as good as it gets from an amateur point of view.

However, converting these to match situations is a bit more tricky imo.... which is why I suspect that working on serve, receive and 3rd ball point patterns are the lowest hanging fruits at the moment compared to further perfecting topspin mechanics.

Oh for sure! I'm a pretty methodical guy when it comes to problem solving. I like to break a complex issue down to simpler components, then lay out a plan to attack them one by one in what I feel is a logical manner. When I first started TT, I figured that every point starts with a service and receive, and even at high levels you can mostly attack with the FH only. My plan then was to focus on the service, receive, and 3rd ball attacks. That did allow me to improve very fast, even with zero coaching, but later on I realized some issues.

Because I was so good at those things, in most games I never got to defend or rally. At lower levels, most people can't return short. Most also can't serve short, and even if they can, they often can't reliably open up so I could also push the 5th ball attack. I had an 8 year hiatus, and after coming back, especially with the game now less 3rd ball, pivot FH based, I decided to change my strategy.

My current plan is to shore up my fundamentals, improve my basic rally skills, then move on to service/receives. My service receive game is now poorer than my rally game, but it should allow me to be in defensive situations more, allowing me to block more, and allow more opportunities to switch from defense to offense.

It looks like my fundamentals practice is nearing its conclusion though, so soon I'll be starting more service receive practices. I'm already doing some more service practices. I've changed my pendulum service grip, and is working on timing my racket acceleration better and contacting the ball closer to the tip of the blade. I'll also be looking to use my body to control the ball more. Adding some reliable short pushes, banana flicks, and FH flicks, should help my receive game a lot as well, but those I need more input from my coach.

 

[Der_Echte]

Maybe in a week or @dingyibvs will be getting Der_Echte to reach the impossible to get dingyibvs shots back... or not. We gotta try out his spinsight, the forum is wondering how spinless I can play.

 

[blahness]

Oh for sure! I'm a pretty methodical guy when it comes to problem solving. I like to break a complex issue down to simpler components, then lay out a plan to attack them one by one in what I feel is a logical manner. When I first started TT, I figured that every point starts with a service and receive, and even at high levels you can mostly attack with the FH only. My plan then was to focus on the service, receive, and 3rd ball attacks. That did allow me to improve very fast, even with zero coaching, but later on I realized some issues.

Because I was so good at those things, in most games I never got to defend or rally. At lower levels, most people can't return short. Most also can't serve short, and even if they can, they often can't reliably open up so I could also push the 5th ball attack. I had an 8 year hiatus, and after coming back, especially with the game now less 3rd ball, pivot FH based, I decided to change my strategy.

My current plan is to shore up my fundamentals, improve my basic rally skills, then move on to service/receives. My service receive game is now poorer than my rally game, but it should allow me to be in defensive situations more, allowing me to block more, and allow more opportunities to switch from defense to offense.

It looks like my fundamentals practice is nearing its conclusion though, so soon I'll be starting more service receive practices. I'm already doing some more service practices. I've changed my pendulum service grip, and is working on timing my racket acceleration better and contacting the ball closer to the tip of the blade. I'll also be looking to use my body to control the ball more. Adding some reliable short pushes, banana flicks, and FH flicks, should help my receive game a lot as well, but those I need more input from my coach.

Tbh you can adopt an even simpler approach to force the rally.

For eg short low heavy sidetopspin against 2x inverted, what is the guy gonna do to avoid the rally? If he flicks, you just enter topspin rally automatically, if he pushes it is gonna be an opportunity ball or at least a long ball. If he pushes against the spin (typical response to sidetopspin), the spin on the receive is very predictable so you can just punish this immediately (but you gotta train for this specific ball otherwise you will still miss it in matches).

Imo serving short underspin or sideunderspin is a mistake against players who you know are weaker in the topspin rally than you. Too many receive options for them.

 

[dingyibvs]

Tbh you can adopt an even simpler approach to force the rally.

For eg short low heavy sidetopspin against 2x inverted, what is the guy gonna do to avoid the rally? If he flicks, you just enter topspin rally automatically, if he pushes it is gonna be an opportunity ball or at least a long ball. If he pushes against the spin (typical response to sidetopspin), the spin on the receive is very predictable so you can just punish this immediately (but you gotta train for this specific ball otherwise you will still miss it in matches).

Imo serving short underspin or sideunderspin is a mistake against players who you know are weaker in the topspin rally than you. Too many receive options for them.

Hmm I hadn't thought of that. I've always predominantly served short backspins. At lower levels that tends to devolve into pushing matches for many people, and I'd take advantage with my superior opening loop. I'll try serving predominantly short topspin instead. It'll probably take some adjustment but I think it should definitely allow me to get into more rallies.

 

[blahness]

Hmm I hadn't thought of that. I've always predominantly served short backspins. At lower levels that tends to devolve into pushing matches for many people, and I'd take advantage with my superior opening loop. I'll try serving predominantly short topspin instead. It'll probably take some adjustment but I think it should definitely allow me to get into more rallies.

My goto is short nospin / sidetopspin, and fast long sidebackspin lol. Against certain players it just flatout destroys them - it is a 'skill check' of sorts - controlling pushing against topspin is not easy and many players have weak flicks, and as a BH player I also love to force the BH-BH topspin rally.

Fast sidebackspin is also one, if you can serve it with quality, it is rather jamming and they need to know precisely how to loop it with a small movement. If they cant loop it, the serve almost cant be pushed short so it is another opportunity ball for you (again with a certain spin). If they attempt to step back and loop it with a big movement it will most likely be diagonal and you just need to do a stable block to enter the rally.

Btw if you serve heavy sidetopspin to certain angles where they cant use the natural angle to push against the spin (for eg pendulum sidetopspin to wide short BH, or reverse pendulum sidetopspin to short FH) you limit their options even more.

But yeah you gotta train to punish the opportunity balls (which are of a certain spin depending on your serve) at super high landing rates. For eg if you served pendulum sidetopspin and they pushed against the spin with the FH, it would be coming to you as if you were receiving a reverse pendulum sidebackspin serve. However if they pushed with the spin then it would be the opposite sidespin coming to you...

If you rely on this serve you need to train looping and punishing this push which pops up. The difficult part is to adjust to the varying placements.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

happy i could resume practice after 1 week of rest due to the lower back injury.
so far feels fine. fingers crossed.

trying to practice all the tips that i can remember from watching YouTube coach XiaoHan. notably on receiving.
todays practice was focused on receive and half long balls

 

[Larshos]

Sometimes, when looping against someone blocking as practice or warmup, I can swear that my best loops often get blocked into the net.. Is it just that what I believe to be my best shots are in fact, not so good?
Is it my teammate overcompensating for spin when blocking?
Is there some other factor in play here that causes this? Because I do believe I've seen this in match footage and spectating other players as well..

 

[blahness]

Sometimes, when looping against someone blocking as practice or warmup, I can swear that my best loops often get blocked into the net.. Is it just that what I believe to be my best shots are in fact, not so good?
Is it my teammate overcompensating for spin when blocking?
Is there some other factor in play here that causes this? Because I do believe I've seen this in match footage and spectating other players as well..

Topspin causes the ball to dip down via Magnus effect. So in effect the blocker has to lower the position of the racket accordingly to intercept the ball correctly. So if he underestimates the spin this can cause a mishit due to the racket not being in the correct position (probably too thin a contact) which leads to the ball having insufficient forward momentum thus dying to the net.