Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[dingyibvs]

I've been filming mostly everything with my usual partner and analyzing it then coming up with drills to fix the issues. My play level is going up maybe half a division a month right now, so I think it's working.
There's a few guys at my club who can block for 30, 40 shots and that's where I get my fix on that, but I'm really using it more for random ball reading and footwork practice than anything to do with the stroke. I'm also training my partner to block better so we might be able to get 10 on the table soon and get some use out of it.

My experience in coaching beginners and intermediates in another sport is that you can't simplify things, because different skills are different. Why do you think so many people feel they play well in practice but then they're "off" in games? Everyone says it's nerves, but in my experience it's almost completely unrelated and just has to do with lack of skills.

Maybe you don't believe it, but I'm sure that if I did what the forums tell me to do, I'd still not be able to 100% consistently put away high backspin balls or half-long balls to my middle. I wouldn't be able to in a few months, nor in a few years, maybe never, because it's just not the same skill. Feel free to disagree and post your reasoning, though.

I do agree that it's almost never nerves, it's stability and adaptability of one's strokes. You're at a level where you SHOULD be improving rapidly, as there are no "key" things to focus on right now. You still have low hanging fruits everywhere. Most adult beginners hit a wall somewhere in the USATT 1600-1800 range, and then it's a grind on your way to break 2000.

The problem with all the pro players talking about keys to a stroke is that when they discovered the key thing that helped them breakthrough, they already had 99% of the rest down pat. When we amateurs hit a wall, we usually have a good feel for the ball, but are still missing a lot of pretty basic stuff. At that point, everything is "key", as you need to grind your way through one key after another to incrementally improve, one small step at a time.

Most of the advice you're getting is probably good, it's just none is gonna be a game changer. Everything will help you improve a little bit, and you need to do all of them right to see a significant improvement even just one stroke against one type of ball. Then rinse and repeat with another stroke, another type of ball, without losing what you learned earlier. Only then will you see a steady increase in your play level even after picking all the low hanging fruits.

 

[blahness]

Some casual practice today. Playing really badly compared to monday, but it is what it is. I think my racket head speed and accuracy is slightly higher, but there's a ton of blindspots still overall, especially in transitions and in judging the ball. Today especially felt very heavy and slow and I couldn't really play my game. Serves absolute dogshit so I will have to disappoint the people who wanted to see some nice ones.

Setup is Dianchi D and Mantra-M, I'd say Dianchi D is honestly close enough to H3 you can use it mostly interchangeably. Mantra is fine too but a bit rapid. I'll use them for the honeymoon period then go back to H3 on both sides.

The really cheap Dianchi D version is interesting; if it really is a close-enough-to-H3 sheet but for half the price of even a commercial H3, then I might compromise with that. I'm sure there's some catch though, like bad QC or topsheet adhesion or whatever LOL.

Have not found anything else this close to H3 though. It feels more like orange than blue sponge. I didn't boost mine and just used it how it came with the factory boost. I would guess it's slightly less spinny and slightly faster, with maybe a flatter arc on blocks. Hardness tolerance on my sheet (mid-grade "Pro" version in the blue vacuum sealed package) is basically as good as H3 Provincial.

STIGA Mantra-M RED
Topsheet 29.0 - 30.0 A / 48.5 - 49.0 O
Sponge 28.5 - 30.0 A / 48.0 - 49.0 O

Dianchi D Pro blue packet 40A 2.20 BLACK
Topsheet 29.0 - 29.5 A / 53.0 - 53.0 O
Sponge 39.5 - 40.5 A / 58.0 - 59.0 O (Glue layer still on, probably not really that stiff once it gets put on)

I would highly recommend to not serve so many varieties of serves in casual games against relative beginners to work a bit more on your rallying skills. Sure the easy points are great for your ego but you just wont develop as a player. For eg just serve underspin and train yourself to be able to attack the returned push wherever it comes and play out the rally. Or just serve no spin and do the exact same thing. This also gives yourself a 'handicap' and force yourself to work harder and is also probably more fun for the other player.

In terms of practice it is way more time efficient to get a box of balls and a ball picker. Otherwise most of the time is just spent on literally picking up balls.

 

[Archosaurus]

I do agree that it's almost never nerves, it's stability and adaptability of one's strokes. You're at a level where you SHOULD be improving rapidly, as there are no "key" things to focus on right now. You still have low hanging fruits everywhere. Most adult beginners hit a wall somewhere in the USATT 1600-1800 range, and then it's a grind on your way to break 2000.

The problem with all the pro players talking about keys to a stroke is that when they discovered the key thing that helped them breakthrough, they already had 99% of the rest down pat. When we amateurs hit a wall, we usually have a good feel for the ball, but are still missing a lot of pretty basic stuff. At that point, everything is "key", as you need to grind your way through one key after another to incrementally improve, one small step at a time.

Most of the advice you're getting is probably good, it's just none is gonna be a game changer. Everything will help you improve a little bit, and you need to do all of them right to see a significant improvement even just one stroke against one type of ball. Then rinse and repeat with another stroke, another type of ball, without losing what you learned earlier. Only then will you see a steady increase in your play level even after picking all the low hanging fruits.

I wouldn't really agree that everything has the same importance when learning. If nobody tells you that you need to move your feet and that it's generally a good idea to have your eyes open when you play, you're going to have a hard time hitting any ball no matter how good you get your power generation, and so on.

Of course when you're at a low enough level, it's not difficult to improve, because being at a low level usually has more to do with knowledge checks than anything else. My technique and abilities aren't improving that much, I'm just getting better at actually using them in the right place and time. That being said I think forums somewhat under-rate my abilities just because of the super casual videos I post; the people I play neck-to-neck with are coached competition players who have usually been playing for 5-10 years, so I give myself slightly more credit than people who see 1% of my playing do.

At least in motorsport, you really need to do things in order. If you don't place the car right on the braking zone you won't be placed right on the turn-in, so the apex will be off and the exit will be off. You can grind any later part of that process as much as you like but you won't improve at all meaningfully until you correct the earliest sticking point. Blanket advice like "Beginners should get good at exiting corners, while entering corners fast is for professionals" is extremely harmful and has done immeasurable damage to hobbyists and enthusiasts over the years, and I see a lot of similar advice in TT.

I and a few other experts have online-coached mid-level motorsport beginners and rocketed their technique and situational abilities to objectively top 5% level in a week or two just by putting things in order. Their jerky and oscillating technical inputs also become a lot smoother and more linear and it seems like they gained years and years of experience suddenly. All of the years of watching online tutorials and grinding laps was almost worthless compared to just doing the right drills and practising the actual important thing. I've even taken a *complete* beginner and got him to average ability in about 3 hours, which usually takes people more like 500-1000 hours.

Not that it's directly related to TT at all (I think coaching in other individual racket sports is a lot more transferable because the skills are more similar) but I am just explaining why I believe what I do about improvement and drilling.

I would highly recommend to not serve so many varieties of serves in casual games against relative beginners to work a bit more on your rallying skills. Sure the easy points are great for your ego but you just wont develop as a player. For eg just serve underspin and train yourself to be able to attack the returned push wherever it comes and play out the rally. Or just serve no spin and do the exact same thing. This also gives yourself a 'handicap' and force yourself to work harder and is also probably more fun for the other player.

In terms of practice it is way more time efficient to get a box of balls and a ball picker. Otherwise most of the time is just spent on literally picking up balls.

I agree with this and it's one change I'm gonna make for next session. My partner isn't too bad at pushing short medium backspin, so I'll probably just only serve that and then deal with his inherent randomness. Even if I don't vary it, it pops up occasionally so I'll get practice on those too.

He's started looping some long serves so it will keep me honest as well. Maybe a good rule would be that I only serve to his forehand, and everything long is looped and everything short is pushed.

 

[jonol]

I've been filming mostly everything with my usual partner and analyzing it then coming up with drills to fix the issues. My play level is going up maybe half a division a month right now, so I think it's working.
There's a few guys at my club who can block for 30, 40 shots and that's where I get my fix on that, but I'm really using it more for random ball reading and footwork practice than anything to do with the stroke. I'm also training my partner to block better so we might be able to get 10 on the table soon and get some use out of it.

Maybe you don't believe it, but I'm sure that if I did what the forums tell me to do, I'd still not be able to 100% consistently put away high backspin balls or half-long balls to my middle. I wouldn't be able to in a few months, nor in a few years, maybe never, because it's just not the same skill. Feel free to disagree and post your reasoning, though.

I think that if you listened to all the advice you get on the forum it would be disastrous. Not because advice is 'bad' but it's not the right step for where you are currently at.

Your current approach sounds good. Playing in your comfort zone, while practicing to expand that zone.

If you feel the improvement and it's stopping you from information overload, that's perfect.

 

[jk1980]

That being said I think forums somewhat under-rate my abilities just because of the super casual videos I post; the people I play neck-to-neck with are coached competition players who have usually been playing for 5-10 years, so I give myself slightly more credit than people who see 1% of my playing do.

i fear you fall into a widespread newbie trap overestimating your skill quite a bit. We have this young/youth player that i was at the table with. I asked him what he wanted to drill and what he could improve upon. I know his level and he could improve on pretty much everything, but i wanted to hear it from his own mouth. When i told him that the regular forehand to forehand loop to block warm up would not improve anything for him, since he would never get an empty/slightly topspin ball in a real match that he could attack to begin with we thought about more useful drills. I told him that he could first try to improve his pushing, when he said "you know, i am pretty good at pushing already". I had to pull him back to earth and told him "Dude, you are not pretty well good at pushing. Even i am not.". That guy has below 900 TTR, so you see how if newbies only compare themselves against similarily bad players they may not realize where they need to improve.

Now with you @Archosaurus it seems to be quite similar. Basically what you write and what can be seen on videos are two world. First off: No, you don't improve by half a division per month. Your rating or level is not described by who you occasionally might win against, but rather against how bad of a player you would still lose to(if you don't like/know his style).

The hint that you should do the same serve all the time is a good one. When playing matches against players that don't pose a challenge this is exactly what you do. Do the exact same serve, tell them what is in the serve and how they can return it. If this is working you can even tell them how you are going to respond and what they should do to counter it.
With me it would be me telling my opponent that i will serve backspin to his backhand and that he should be prepared to block because i will loop it into his backhand.
If you get that one down with him it will be much more interesting and helpful to improve rallying skills because the match will not end on the first loop if you outgrow the lowest leagues.

Since you mentioned your partner looping some of your serves i want to also point out that you can see that there is no backspin at all in your serve, because the way he "loops" it would fall into the net if there was any kind of backspin in it.

Seeing that your partner is quite a low level as well and comfortable to be recorded, i wonder why the others that you go toe to toe with are not comfortable being recorded (if they are really better).

One indication of your own level and improvement is actually who is willing to play and drill with you. If you are not able to block a ball 5 times in a row for somebody to loop, then of course they don't want to spent more time picking up balls.
If you can not loop the ball 5 times approximately to the forehand of the training partner without going once to the middle of the table, next sideways outside of the table then again nobody will block for you, because nobody wants to pick up on this.

The same is true for most beginners. If you just hit the table and do this "i serve random over the whole table and shoot intuitively somewhere" you wont get better. Your time would be better spent doing the same match-like scenario : regular exercise: backspin serve to the same spot, return to the same spot, loop to the same spot (and not being happy with "hey i hit a loop", no you have to actually be able to reliably hit where you aim at).

 

[Archosaurus]

I think that if you listened to all the advice you get on the forum it would be disastrous. Not because advice is 'bad' but it's not the right step for where you are currently at.

Your current approach sounds good. Playing in your comfort zone, while practicing to expand that zone.

If you feel the improvement and it's stopping you from information overload, that's perfect.

It's working to now. Everyone at the club is saying I've improved loads lately. The objective scoring performance backs it up; Division 5 and 4 players who I'd lose sets 2-11 and 3-11 to a month ago are struggling to get 9-11 and 10-12 out of me, and I will probably be tied with them in a few months. It helps all of them are in a rut and not improving a lot.
I'm helping some of them with the pendulum serve, but they will never catch up to me so I'm not worried about it particularly.

I'm also pretty aware of what exactly are my major mistakes, so I'm fixing them little by little. Unless you look at all the hours of footage you won't notice, but there's improvement here and there.

I do play much better in high intensity where you just don't keep up at all without good form and fast footwork, and I tend to move more into the ball and not so much sideways across it which has a very positive effect on my consistency so I'll need to simulate more of that in these practice matches. I've seen much better players lose some points in weird ways against my practice partner when they get lulled into this weird tempo so you gotta watch out lol.

@jk1980
I'm not overestimating anything, I'm going by the estimated RC based on the penant selection and my WR% vs players of a certain standard. I should be probably somewhere around 1500 USATT if you'd wanna do a conversion. I don't think that's super crazy high or anything. You just assume I'm a 1000 standard player or whatever.

I usually drill with Division 5 to State players. I can block them or hit into their block all day and they all struggle with my serve, so they're happy to practice when their partners are unavailable. The practice I do with my regular partner is actually the smaller proportion, only about 1/3. I guess 2-3 hours a week.

The Division 9, 8 and 7 players all think they're a lot better than I am and are not interested in doing "boring drills" like looping into block or serve return, though. So I only ever play matches with them. I will occasionally lose to some of them although some of those players are extremely under-rated due to being juniors and they're generally getting adjusted into 5 or 4, and that's the kind of players they actually train with.

EDIT: As to why people aren't comfortable being recorded, it's the last time I will say this, but you legally need consent from all present parties to record video in a private facility. I am not going to individually get consent from 20 people every time. I'd need to get one of them to come with me to a corner one day, and there's no guarantee they want it to go online.

EDIT 2: Note also that Australian RC is much lower than US RC. Ours starts from like 650 or whatever. It's not the usual "RC+200 to get USATT" logic. It seems to be lower than TTR, maybe by 200 or so. So maybe around 1100-1200 TTR would be my average performance in a competitive setting.

EDIT 3: Division 5 is 1000 RC nominal and Division 4 is 1100 RC nominal, coaches and good players estimate me at the weaker end of Division 6 when I play badly and maybe competitive in Division 6 when I play alright.

So in all likelihood next year I will start with an 800 or 850 rating in Division 7, because I've asked to be put a little lower so I have a chance for 50% WR with the assumption that I will be playing badly most of the time due to inexperience.

 

[Tyce]

The underrated issue is easily solved by posting non-casual videos instead.

 

[Archosaurus]

The underrated issue is easily solved by posting non-casual videos instead.

I don't think I'm under-rated, if anything the Division 6 estimate is optimistic. I'd personally like to start in 7. unless somehow by next season I have improved enough to make it unfair for them. We put one guy in 7. this year and he has a 95%~ winrate, so yeah...

This year there was a lot of intentional sandbagging with 4. players playing in .5 and so on, so really I would be going up against .5 players half the time, who would surely beat me. Well, by next year it might be closer, but I'm not expecting miracles; on average I'll probably still lose.

I know one quite good .5 player (he fills in to .2 sometimes, and I've seen him win matches vs .2 and .3 players in practice) who I play with sometimes, maybe he would be willing to let me film and upload something. He will whoop my ass most likely 3-1, but it will be close and entertaining.

 

[Archosaurus]

Completely forgot I had more video available and just didn't upload any lol. I don't remember if this is later or earlier. Maybe earlier because I'm struggling with the Mantra's speed, but I dunno. There is a bit more footage but it's mostly the same, so I won't upload it unless someone really wants it.

 

[blahness]

Well i can see that at least @Archosaurus is not blasting 70% of his opening loops into the net now compared to his first videos lol. To me that is quite nice improvement. Now the body usage, footwork, split step, backhand (which is way below the FH level) and pushing all needs a lot of work, but you gotta go 1 step at a time.

@Archosaurus this is another challenge. Do not even use a single loop in a match, and literally push everything (yes, including side topspin balls and long balls and even high balls) and keep them at most 2x net height. Figure out how to control and do it. Only when you can push back a spinny sidetopspin and create some serious backspin off it, you actually can consider yourself decent at pushing. Technically, loops can be chopblocked but this is probably too difficult, so the exception is that you are allowed to block if your opponent topspins.

A tip is that straightening the index finger is extremely key to producing significant spin in pushing, and of course good linear elbow and wrist usage and also body is important

 

[Haito]

There is this guy that popped into my feed. Interesting outcome. He got older W968 and a new fake. The fake won.

Whats interesting the person who preferred the real thing seemed to have better technique.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well i can see that at least @Archosaurus is not blasting 70% of his opening loops into the net now compared to his first videos lol. To me that is quite nice improvement. Now the body usage, footwork, split step, backhand (which is way below the FH level) and pushing all needs a lot of work, but you gotta go 1 step at a time.

@Archosaurus this is another challenge. Do not even use a single loop in a match, and literally push everything (yes, including side topspin balls and long balls and even high balls) and keep them at most 2x net height. Figure out how to control and do it. Only when you can push back a spinny sidetopspin and create some serious backspin off it, you actually can consider yourself decent at pushing. Technically, loops can be chopblocked but this is probably too difficult, so the exception is that you are allowed to block if your opponent topspins.

A tip is that straightening the index finger is extremely key to producing significant spin in pushing, and of course good linear elbow and wrist usage and also body is important

Lol the % is still pretty low. I remember missing *two* opening loops during the last internal comp, and I was even opening up with BH. It's really annoying and baffling when I miss them against what should be easier balls, but I know it's because the ball I'm hitting is literally different and little transfers over.

If I get a "better return" then I rarely miss it, so this is its own issue. Power level going down also makes consistency go down which sounds opposite to me.

Your challenge is easy because I already play like that. I need to mix it up a lot against better players to have even a shred of a chance. Your net height requirement is not something any player anywhere can meet but that's its own story.

I can film one match next time without any attacking shots and just sticking to pushes, chops and blocks. Sometimes I'll do it for real vs weaker players if I'm really not in form and mistakes are too frequent, or against much stronger players as a mixup.

 

[blahness]

Lol the % is still pretty low. I remember missing *two* opening loops during the last internal comp, and I was even opening up with BH. It's really annoying and baffling when I miss them against what should be easier balls, but I know it's because the ball I'm hitting is literally different and little transfers over.

If I get a "better return" then I rarely miss it, so this is its own issue. Power level going down also makes consistency go down which sounds opposite to me.

Your challenge is easy because I already play like that. I need to mix it up a lot against better players to have even a shred of a chance. Your net height requirement is not something any player anywhere can meet but that's its own story.

I can film one match next time without any attacking shots and just sticking to pushes, chops and blocks. Sometimes I'll do it for real vs weaker players if I'm really not in form and mistakes are too frequent, or against much stronger players as a mixup.

The goal is to develop, not win some unimportant match just for the ego's sake.

The net height requirement is of course important because this shows your precision, pushing quality and understanding of spin. This exercise is also a footwork test because in order to maintain consistency, you have to be in the correct position in time to use the body correctly. Even more advanced push level has to do with varying the spin of yphr push via differing finger actions. For eg against backspin you can produce either heavy backspin or no spin. Against sidetopspin you can return sidetopspin or heavy sidebackspin with similar looking actions. Right now i can already tell that you cant produce a heavy backspin push off sidetopspin or even no spin, which is a serious deficiency.

Almost all the competitive players here can push literally everything that is not a loop. So it is quite an important 'skill check'.

Btw on the misses, almost all of them have to do with you not actually actively moving (ie no split step, and mostly planted feet) and just guessing where the ball will come. But developing that is also not easy.

 

[Archosaurus]

The goal is to develop, not win some unimportant match just for the ego's sake.

The net height requirement is of course important because this shows your precision, pushing quality and understanding of spin. This exercise is also a footwork test because in order to maintain consistency, you have to be in the correct position in time to use the body correctly. Even more advanced push level has to do with varying the spin of yphr push via differing finger actions. For eg against backspin you can produce either heavy backspin or no spin. Against sidetopspin you can return sidetopspin or heavy sidebackspin with similar looking actions. Right now i can already tell that you cant produce a heavy backspin push off sidetopspin or even no spin, which is a serious deficiency.

Almost all the competitive players here can push literally everything that is not a loop. So it is quite an important 'skill check'.

Btw on the misses, almost all of them have to do with you not actually actively moving (ie no split step, and mostly planted feet) and just guessing where the ball will come. But developing that is also not easy.

Do you have video of yourself playing? The things you say are not really consistent with what people are actually able to or not able to do. Are you talking about playing at a national level or at a club level?

 

[Haito]

Do you have video of yourself playing? The things you say are not really consistent with what people are actually able to or not able to do. Are you talking about playing at a national level or at a club level?

Welp, he is right. It is pretty basic thing to do. You have to learn it, to feed balls to people learning the loop against backspin. First you start with stiff hand to have no spin, then you loosen up and tense on contact to have more spin. I do not have video, but there's been a few forum members bitching about my pushes...

Its basically opposite movement you do when looping backspin. When looping backspin you tense up on contact to pop the ball out. I think I taught that to @golden_son , matti and @barusu in Dusseldorf. Its the same concept but in other direction. You use the same feeling when serving to get spin.

 

[Archosaurus]

Welp, he is right. It is pretty basic thing to do. You have to learn it, to feed balls to people learning the loop against backspin. First you start with stiff hand to have no spin, then you loosen up and tense on contact to have more spin. I do not have video, but there's been a few forum members bitching about my pushes...

Its basically opposite movement you do when looping backspin. When looping backspin you tense up on contact to pop the ball out. I think I taught that to @golden_son , matti and @barusu in Dusseldorf. Its the same concept but in other direction. You use the same feeling when serving to get spin.

So basic that no club player anywhere in the world can do it. Are we actually talking about the same thing?

Next time you guys train, get your partner to serve random nospin/topspin/sidespin to you and try to push it how you claim everyone can. If I understood right it's under 31cm and heavy, so let's say 50rps and more for an over the table shot. You're not allowed to chop it; the whole point is to push it over the table.

You don't need to film it or even tell us how it went, but you can confirm for yourself how it goes. Make sure to count the % of times it goes above 31cm or under 50rps.

 

[NextLevel]

Do you have video of yourself playing? The things you say are not really consistent with what people are actually able to or not able to do. Are you talking about playing at a national level or at a club level?

I am of two minds about this. I actually with Archo on this one but maybe it is because my TT level is too low. Most players who push topspin and no spin at levels under 2300 USATT tend to suck at it.

And of course @blahness is a higher level @Archosaurus, his advice seems much better motivated and sounds much more like someone who has actually done training but again no one had ever seen him play so all we all have to judge whatever he says by its plausibiility to us because there really is no guarantee that he actually practices competently half the things he posts about.

So good luck Archo, you are currently in position to experience what it feels like when the shoe is on the other foot and you have to judge someone by the plausibility of what they write without any real insight into whether they understand the limitations you face learning table tennis.

 

[Archosaurus]

I am of two minds about this. I actually with Archo on this one but maybe it is because my TT level is too low. Most players who push topspin and no spin at levels under 2300 USATT tend to suck at it.

And of course @blahness is a higher level @Archosaurus, his advice seems much better motivated and sounds much more like someone who has actually done training but again no one had ever seen him play so all we all have to judge whatever he says by its plausibiility to us because there really is no guarantee that he actually practices competently half the things he posts about.

So good luck Archo, you are currently in position to experience what it feels like when the shoe is on the other foot and you have to judge someone by the plausibility of what they write without any real insight into whether they understand the limitations you face learning table tennis.

I'm sure someone out there can do it; but I've talked to coaches, top-division amateurs and semi-pros about serving and receiving and the sentiment is the same, and a lot of ex-pro-turned-coach online coaches also claim the same. I think Heming Hu claims that "no club level player can push topspin low" which is pretty absolutist but I'm sure he isn't just making it up, he coaches a lot of club level players and still competes in tourneys sometimes so he sees what they can do.

I think people are not appreciating sometimes how incredibly difficult some things are that they act like are really simple things; maybe lack of filming themselves and seeing that they fail at it 95% of the time? Before I filmed anything I had those kind of ideas more than I do now and I thought I was "quite good" at something that I only succeed at maybe 5% of the time. You tend to only remember the big winners and not all of the times you just barely missed.

Many of the ex-CNT online coaches believe that if you can attack half-high balls with 70% consistency, you're already an advanced player. In China that means 2000 rating, or about 2200-2300 USATT supposedly.

I won't comment on the last part but I will say it is adorable to watch what I believe are grown men use new words and concepts they just learned about to provide the hypothesis and solution to every other issue. I gotta work on my split-step!

EDIT: Heming Hu source at 2:07:

Also found similar sentiment to the half-high ball thing, maybe it was even this video I was thinking about, at 0:10: