Does anybody else mentally fall apart against pure pushers or weird styles?

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
May 2013
1,243
1,203
3,314
Read 2 reviews
I made a couple adjustments for today's game to beat 1600 weird push player.

1) I exclusively served bh. I felt serving bh puts less spin on my serve, so I have an easier 3rd ball. Also I felt using bh to serve put me in better position to loop the 3rd ball.
2) I went ahead and looped every one of his long serves with my bh loop/flick. Previously I was pushing his serve, but all that did was draw me into long push on push rallies
3) I changed my bh rubber and put Dragon grip on. Since I know that 99% of his shots will be a push to my bh side, I felt I really needed the extra grip and speed to lift his ball
Serving BH when under pressure is a very underestimated tactic. There is no need to get into receiving position after the serve - you're already there ready to receive short or long on both wings - so much easier to attack the third ball, etc. Well done and congrats.
 
says Pimples Schmimples
says Pimples Schmimples
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Sep 2022
1,213
1,221
4,696
Here is a better question:

How many setups must a player have if a player has to play many different folks? Ten, twenty, fifty???
Well to be fair here, there is obviously a technique issue, or position/footwork issue to get in place for the BH loop BUT it's also true that some rubbers make it easier to loop underspin balls more consistently. I find it several times easier with soft grippy rubbers. The tradeoff is I don't have speed to hit many outright winners but hitting the table is more important.
So if he's found out that his old rubber was too fast for him then I'd call that a step in the right direction 😉
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
5,006
2,499
7,881
I have never use hybrid before. Your statement piqued my interest but after a short glance at some of the hybrid product available, I realised that their sponge is on the hard side. Sigh, thanks but no thanks, I'll retreat to my safe tender, soft and mushy tenergy fx. I love em soft and tenderly.
You could try Andro C45. Hybrid but soft
 
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Mar 2021
3,743
4,148
9,117
You could try Andro C45. Hybrid but soft
anything with 42? 42 is kinda my magic / number.

I am really looking forward to Xiom Vega Europe Hybrid, but sadly is not available for sale yet in my locale.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
This user has no status.
Interesting thread. I think some answers with "simple you just serve topspin or top side" or just play X or Y do not appreciate that some players do have an incredible push game that is difficult to overcome at mid level play. I have played some pushers who absolutely could push any and every spin serve or no spin serve I throw at them. How, I have no idea. Useful thread for many of us. Thank you OP for putting it out there.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
15,068
21,291
54,680
Read 17 reviews
I have never use hybrid before. Your statement piqued my interest but after a short glance at some of the hybrid product available, I realised that their sponge is on the hard side. Sigh, thanks but no thanks, I'll retreat to my safe tender, soft and mushy tenergy fx. I love em soft and tenderly.
Hurricane 8-80 and Skyline 3-60 both have softer sponge if you are interested.
 
Last edited:
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,554
18,293
56,445
Read 11 reviews
Ok, so i played the weird 1600 player today and won 3-0. It was 11-3, 11-7, 11-6.

The big difference is that I really forced myself to play my regular game and go loop his push and loop his serve no matter how anxious I feel

I made a couple adjustments for today's game to beat 1600 weird push player.

1) I exclusively served bh. I felt serving bh puts less spin on my serve, so I have an easier 3rd ball. Also I felt using bh to serve put me in better position to loop the 3rd ball.
2) I went ahead and looped every one of his long serves with my bh loop/flick. Previously I was pushing his serve, but all that did was draw me into long push on push rallies
3) I changed my bh rubber and put Dragon grip on. Since I know that 99% of his shots will be a push to my bh side, I felt I really needed the extra grip and speed to lift his ball

I have a feeling, the only real issue listed that was actually central was that you looped as early as possible.

This is actually an issue I have seen and said in some older videos of you playing. Getting used to looping the first ball you can, when you are playing (particularly practice matches) would be worth it for you regardless of the opponent. So, looping on the opponent's serves and looping on the opponent's return of your serves would be worth getting used to.

It may not be what you always do tactically against good players. But being able to pull the trigger as early in a rally as possible would mean you are ready for anything so that, when you choose to let the pushing happen for longer before the opening occurs, it is because you chose that tactically and, perhaps it is even a surprise to your opponent that you are not opening at the first chance.

Even when your opponent opens first, if you are able to re-loop (counterloop) instead of blocking (which you are already excellent at), that would also give you additional skills that it would be worth working on; and when you get used to those kinds of things, you will play better against higher level players.

I am talking from memory. But my memory is, you like to to push and wait for the opponent to open, or for an easy ball to open on. When your opponent opens, you like to block and wait till you get a safe ball to loop against and take control of the rally or win the rally. Your blocking is really solid and a lot of the guys I have seen you post video of, when they are looping at you, you are kind of like a wall and everything comes back, and then you get one loose ball and start looping and your loops have good spin so that gives your opponents trouble after the relatively low spin of the blocks. Making it second nature that attack that first ball that comes to you (almost no matter what comes to you), to open with a loop would increase your skills. When your opponent opens with loop, working on counterlooping that first loop would also add to your skill set. I could be wrong since it has been a while since I have seen footage of you play. But my memory is, you wait and let your opponents make the mistakes (play safe) a lot of the time. Again, there are times when that is just good tactics. But, having the skill to press your opponent with offense earlier would likely bring you up another few levels.

==

Still, if the change of rubber helped you have the CONFIDENCE to open as early as possible, it was fine. But that is the mental part. So, it would be worth playing practice matches with players like that one and forcing yourself to open as early as possible, while using your FH serves, and while using the equipment you would normally use. I think you will find those are not the issues you thought they were if you are mentally prepared to loop everything. And if you do it for a while, you will stop having the nerves associated with the mental framework of looping the first ball that comes to you no matter how challenging of a ball you get. And again, when you are comfortable with doing that, then pushing when your opponent is NOT expecting it can give you a much bigger tactical advantage.

Last thing: you may be able to get more spin on your FH serves, but I would put money on it that, if you wanted to REDUCE the amount of spin on your FH serves, YOU CAN. And learning how that gives you tactical advantages would also increase your GAME SKILL LEVEL. If you can show very heavy backspin (or any other kind of spin) on your serves, then the light spin and "no-spin" serves become very effective, ESPECIALLY if you can do the lighter spin serves with a decently high toss. And being set after a serve (FH or BH) should be part of the serve motion, so, if you have a harder time being set after FH serves, then you should be practicing your serves with the body motion that brings you into the ready position AS PART OF THE SERVE, since IT IS PART OF THE SERVE. :)

Watch any of the top players when they use a FH serve and how they use their body, legs, hips to rotate into the ball and the followthrough of that motion brings them directly into the ready position. If you are serving without doing that, that action would give your serves a decent amount more control (on length, depth, speed, placement) and an increased amount of spin or speed without the opponent seeing you use more effort.
 
Last edited:
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
says Making a beautiful shot is most important; winning is...
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Mar 2021
3,743
4,148
9,117
OP seems to resolve the issue once he change his rubber to hybrid type. Now he has trouble with a flat hitter; what rubber will OP change to this time to counter a flat hitter?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,554
18,293
56,445
Read 11 reviews
OP seems to resolve the issue once he change his rubber to hybrid type. Now he has trouble with a flat hitter; what rubber will OP change to this time to counter a flat hitter?

Gozo, for you, I recommend you switch to sandpaper. That will be the best setup for the game you play. :) Everyone else, equipment does not matter as much as training as long as you are using something you enjoy using. But sandpaper for Gozo's hulk smash will make him invinceable!
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Moderator
Dec 2010
16,554
18,293
56,445
Read 11 reviews
I have a feeling, the only real issue listed that was actually central was that you looped as early as possible.

This is actually an issue I have seen and said in some older videos of you playing. Getting used to looping the first ball you can, when you are playing (particularly practice matches) would be worth it for you regardless of the opponent. So, looping on the opponent's serves and looping on the opponent's return of your serves would be worth getting used to.

It may not be what you always do tactically against good players. But being able to pull the trigger as early in a rally as possible would mean you are ready for anything so that, when you choose to let the pushing happen for longer before the opening occurs, it is because you chose that tactically and, perhaps it is even a surprise to your opponent that you are not opening at the first chance.

Even when your opponent opens first, if you are able to re-loop (counterloop) instead of blocking (which you are already excellent at), that would also give you additional skills that it would be worth working on; and when you get used to those kinds of things, you will play better against higher level players.

I am talking from memory. But my memory is, you like to to push and wait for the opponent to open, or for an easy ball to open on. When your opponent opens, you like to block and wait till you get a safe ball to loop against and take control of the rally or win the rally. Your blocking is really solid and a lot of the guys I have seen you post video of, when they are looping at you, you are kind of like a wall and everything comes back, and then you get one loose ball and start looping and your loops have good spin so that gives your opponents trouble after the relatively low spin of the blocks. Making it second nature that attack that first ball that comes to you (almost no matter what comes to you), to open with a loop would increase your skills. When your opponent opens with loop, working on counterlooping that first loop would also add to your skill set. I could be wrong since it has been a while since I have seen footage of you play. But my memory is, you wait and let your opponents make the mistakes (play safe) a lot of the time. Again, there are times when that is just good tactics. But, having the skill to press your opponent with offense earlier would likely bring you up another few levels.

==

Still, if the change of rubber helped you have the CONFIDENCE to open as early as possible, it was fine. But that is the mental part. So, it would be worth playing practice matches with players like that one and forcing yourself to open as early as possible, while using your FH serves, and while using the equipment you would normally use. I think you will find those are not the issues you thought they were if you are mentally prepared to loop everything. And if you do it for a while, you will stop having the nerves associated with the mental framework of looping the first ball that comes to you no matter how challenging of a ball you get. And again, when you are comfortable with doing that, then pushing when your opponent is NOT expecting it can give you a much bigger tactical advantage.

Last thing: you may be able to get more spin on your FH serves, but I would put money on it that, if you wanted to REDUCE the amount of spin on your FH serves, YOU CAN. And learning how that gives you tactical advantages would also increase your GAME SKILL LEVEL. If you can show very heavy backspin (or any other kind of spin) on your serves, then the light spin and "no-spin" serves become very effective, ESPECIALLY if you can do the lighter spin serves with a decently high toss. And being set after a serve (FH or BH) should be part of the serve motion, so, if you have a harder time being set after FH serves, then you should be practicing your serves with the body motion that brings you into the ready position AS PART OF THE SERVE, since IT IS PART OF THE SERVE. :)

Watch any of the top players when they use a FH serve and how they use their body, legs, hips to rotate into the ball and the followthrough of that motion brings them directly into the ready position. If you are serving without doing that, that action would give your serves a decent amount more control (on length, depth, speed, placement) and an increased amount of spin or speed without the opponent seeing you use more effort.

Just an addition to what I said above, I think TensorBH does not like playing against LP. Probably, something that will help him improve a decent amount is to find a few decent level LP players and play a lot of training matches against them. If TensorBH can figure out how to read what is coming off the racket of an LP player, and gets good at playing vs a variety of different kinds of LP players, his level will improve a whole bunch more.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling I am not. He will have to really be paying attention and use different tactics and develop new skills in reading the point and the opponent to become solid against LP players. And it would be a worthwhile venture.

When you are really reading the ball for spin, you can tell what spin and, to a certain extent, how much spin is on it. When you are doing that, you become better at reading the spin from any player with good, deceptive serves because you learn to read the ball, not just the contact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
15,068
21,291
54,680
Read 17 reviews
I have a feeling, the only real issue listed that was actually central was that you looped as early as possible.

This is actually an issue I have seen and said in some older videos of you playing. Getting used to looping the first ball you can, when you are playing (particularly practice matches) would be worth it for you regardless of the opponent. So, looping on the opponent's serves and looping on the opponent's return of your serves would be worth getting used to.

It may not be what you always do tactically against good players. But being able to pull the trigger as early in a rally as possible would mean you are ready for anything so that, when you choose to let the pushing happen for longer before the opening occurs, it is because you chose that tactically and, perhaps it is even a surprise to your opponent that you are not opening at the first chance.

Even when your opponent opens first, if you are able to re-loop (counterloop) instead of blocking (which you are already excellent at), that would also give you additional skills that it would be worth working on; and when you get used to those kinds of things, you will play better against higher level players.

I am talking from memory. But my memory is, you like to to push and wait for the opponent to open, or for an easy ball to open on. When your opponent opens, you like to block and wait till you get a safe ball to loop against and take control of the rally or win the rally. Your blocking is really solid and a lot of the guys I have seen you post video of, when they are looping at you, you are kind of like a wall and everything comes back, and then you get one loose ball and start looping and your loops have good spin so that gives your opponents trouble after the relatively low spin of the blocks. Making it second nature that attack that first ball that comes to you (almost no matter what comes to you), to open with a loop would increase your skills. When your opponent opens with loop, working on counterlooping that first loop would also add to your skill set. I could be wrong since it has been a while since I have seen footage of you play. But my memory is, you wait and let your opponents make the mistakes (play safe) a lot of the time. Again, there are times when that is just good tactics. But, having the skill to press your opponent with offense earlier would likely bring you up another few levels.

==

Still, if the change of rubber helped you have the CONFIDENCE to open as early as possible, it was fine. But that is the mental part. So, it would be worth playing practice matches with players like that one and forcing yourself to open as early as possible, while using your FH serves, and while using the equipment you would normally use. I think you will find those are not the issues you thought they were if you are mentally prepared to loop everything. And if you do it for a while, you will stop having the nerves associated with the mental framework of looping the first ball that comes to you no matter how challenging of a ball you get. And again, when you are comfortable with doing that, then pushing when your opponent is NOT expecting it can give you a much bigger tactical advantage.

Last thing: you may be able to get more spin on your FH serves, but I would put money on it that, if you wanted to REDUCE the amount of spin on your FH serves, YOU CAN. And learning how that gives you tactical advantages would also increase your GAME SKILL LEVEL. If you can show very heavy backspin (or any other kind of spin) on your serves, then the light spin and "no-spin" serves become very effective, ESPECIALLY if you can do the lighter spin serves with a decently high toss. And being set after a serve (FH or BH) should be part of the serve motion, so, if you have a harder time being set after FH serves, then you should be practicing your serves with the body motion that brings you into the ready position AS PART OF THE SERVE, since IT IS PART OF THE SERVE. :)

Watch any of the top players when they use a FH serve and how they use their body, legs, hips to rotate into the ball and the followthrough of that motion brings them directly into the ready position. If you are serving without doing that, that action would give your serves a decent amount more control (on length, depth, speed, placement) and an increased amount of spin or speed without the opponent seeing you use more effort.
The push as an attacker's weapon is designed to be played off a short ball. The reason is that it has a less distance to travel and often there is more opportunity to create angles, use speed and potentially keep the ball short. Playing it off a long ball takes speed out of the equation and unless you have great touch and even if you do, keeping the ball short is likely out of the equation. Choppers are the ones who tend to push well off long balls. Even the pushes that attackers use against choppers' chops/pushes are usually intended just to keep the ball in play and not really to put pressure on the chopper because the ball is usually deep. It is only when the chopper chops a ball that doesn't come deep that the attacker again is presented with opportunities to keep the ball shorter and bring the chopper in. Otherwise, a push there just resets the point.

The reason why this point gets confused is that because the inability to reliably attack backspin is high with beginners, they often push very long balls and then the push off a long ball becomes normal when it really isn't the context in which pushing should be done.

As you said, it is just better to develop the habit and ability to say "long ball, time to attack", especially if you are able to topspin on both sides. Because the simplest time for you to read the long ball is usually off the return of your serve and often (but clearly not always) off the serve if your opponent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Jan 2016
4,589
5,516
22,791
more and more i don't consider pushing as an isolated stroke, but as a combo.
I practice : aggressive long push + pivot to get ready to counter immediately with FH
the push will force the opponent to attack. the fact that i anticipate with a pivot puts pressure on the attacker as he sees me stepping around with confidence. just that can cause more mistakes. but i find it a good habit because even if the topspin doesn't go to my FH, i find out that because im moving aggressively i can react better to the shot going to my BH then i would probably block actively or not

when im really confident, and i know the push might trigger another push to my BH from my opponent, i anticipate with an attack or counter with BH instead.

---
as a receiver, its the same i practice a lot the pattern where the opponent serves short to my FH, i push long or short and get ready for the topspin or counter. i view that as a combo.

to make sure its a combo, it helps me that i count "1" to get first in position for the push, "2" i push, and immediately go back in position then "1" again for the adjustment to next shot and "2" play that next shot. that little pause when counting "1" helps me to give my own rhythm to the push, and not just put back the ball on the table with the opponent giving the pace of the rally.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
5,006
2,499
7,881
Just an addition to what I said above, I think TensorBH does not like playing against LP. Probably, something that will help him improve a decent amount is to find a few decent level LP players and play a lot of training matches against them. If TensorBH can figure out how to read what is coming off the racket of an LP player, and gets good at playing vs a variety of different kinds of LP players, his level will improve a whole bunch more.

I could be wrong, but I have a feeling I am not. He will have to really be paying attention and use different tactics and develop new skills in reading the point and the opponent to become solid against LP players. And it would be a worthwhile venture.

When you are really reading the ball for spin, you can tell what spin and, to a certain extent, how much spin is on it. When you are doing that, you become better at reading the spin from any player with good, deceptive serves because you learn to read the ball, not just the contact.
Actually recently I have been playing more against LP players. And i have been focusing on reading spin and learning the rhythm and attacking their ball. There are 2 in particular. One is a old man with a very respectable bh chopblock with his LP. Also he does a respectable punch with his LP.

The other is a 2400 LP player who apparently was on some version of US national team. I actually dont know what that means.

But i think your idea about playing LP players is 100% correct. I mentioned in another thread that the best sparring partners are not good conventional players, but slightly awkward players who execute their own style well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Oct 2022
5,006
2,499
7,881
I have a feeling, the only real issue listed that was actually central was that you looped as early as possible.

This is actually an issue I have seen and said in some older videos of you playing. Getting used to looping the first ball you can, when you are playing (particularly practice matches) would be worth it for you regardless of the opponent. So, looping on the opponent's serves and looping on the opponent's return of your serves would be worth getting used to.

It may not be what you always do tactically against good players. But being able to pull the trigger as early in a rally as possible would mean you are ready for anything so that, when you choose to let the pushing happen for longer before the opening occurs, it is because you chose that tactically and, perhaps it is even a surprise to your opponent that you are not opening at the first chance.

Even when your opponent opens first, if you are able to re-loop (counterloop) instead of blocking (which you are already excellent at), that would also give you additional skills that it would be worth working on; and when you get used to those kinds of things, you will play better against higher level players.

I am talking from memory. But my memory is, you like to to push and wait for the opponent to open, or for an easy ball to open on. When your opponent opens, you like to block and wait till you get a safe ball to loop against and take control of the rally or win the rally. Your blocking is really solid and a lot of the guys I have seen you post video of, when they are looping at you, you are kind of like a wall and everything comes back, and then you get one loose ball and start looping and your loops have good spin so that gives your opponents trouble after the relatively low spin of the blocks. Making it second nature that attack that first ball that comes to you (almost no matter what comes to you), to open with a loop would increase your skills. When your opponent opens with loop, working on counterlooping that first loop would also add to your skill set. I could be wrong since it has been a while since I have seen footage of you play. But my memory is, you wait and let your opponents make the mistakes (play safe) a lot of the time. Again, there are times when that is just good tactics. But, having the skill to press your opponent with offense earlier would likely bring you up another few levels.

==

Still, if the change of rubber helped you have the CONFIDENCE to open as early as possible, it was fine. But that is the mental part. So, it would be worth playing practice matches with players like that one and forcing yourself to open as early as possible, while using your FH serves, and while using the equipment you would normally use. I think you will find those are not the issues you thought they were if you are mentally prepared to loop everything. And if you do it for a while, you will stop having the nerves associated with the mental framework of looping the first ball that comes to you no matter how challenging of a ball you get. And again, when you are comfortable with doing that, then pushing when your opponent is NOT expecting it can give you a much bigger tactical advantage.

Last thing: you may be able to get more spin on your FH serves, but I would put money on it that, if you wanted to REDUCE the amount of spin on your FH serves, YOU CAN. And learning how that gives you tactical advantages would also increase your GAME SKILL LEVEL. If you can show very heavy backspin (or any other kind of spin) on your serves, then the light spin and "no-spin" serves become very effective, ESPECIALLY if you can do the lighter spin serves with a decently high toss. And being set after a serve (FH or BH) should be part of the serve motion, so, if you have a harder time being set after FH serves, then you should be practicing your serves with the body motion that brings you into the ready position AS PART OF THE SERVE, since IT IS PART OF THE SERVE. :)

Watch any of the top players when they use a FH serve and how they use their body, legs, hips to rotate into the ball and the followthrough of that motion brings them directly into the ready position. If you are serving without doing that, that action would give your serves a decent amount more control (on length, depth, speed, placement) and an increased amount of spin or speed without the opponent seeing you use more effort.
Really good comments here.

About changing rubber, I think it was maybe 70% psychological and 30% technical. Mentally it really does give me confidence to loop. I know i have at least 3 games coming, he will not loop a single time but push every time to my bh. It really gives me confidence knowing I have a strong hybrid rubber on my bh to go and loop his ball. And 30% technical is that actually there is some real benefit to looping with hybrid. I think this fact is well observed already.

I havent posted video lately, but in the past 8 months or so, i really have been working on looping earlier in the rally. Particularly on looping opponents serve. I would agree with you that this strategy is of particular value. I feel i need to loop the opponent serve to play equal with those 1950 and 2000 players. When I execute it well, then I can genuinely win those matches.

To a lesser degree i have been working on the counter loop. Im much more confident counterlooping away from the table than counterloop near the table. I use the near table counterloop sometime, but i find it hard to practice. I had another thread on this topic.

Finally its interesting that many people in this thread didn't recognize that the problem against 1600 player was maybe 80% psychological and 20% technical. A few did recognize that the problem was more of determination to play your own style and avoid getting into his weird style.

The main thrust of this thread that i wanted to discuss was the experience of totally shutting down. Your body just crumbles and cant execute what you know its capable of. Im sure im not the only one who has done this before. I feel this issue didnt get discussed well and became focused on technical ability of looping underspin.
 
says Pimples Schmimples
says Pimples Schmimples
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Sep 2022
1,213
1,221
4,696
Interesting thread. I think some answers with "simple you just serve topspin or top side" or just play X or Y do not appreciate that some players do have an incredible push game that is difficult to overcome at mid level play. I have played some pushers who absolutely could push any and every spin serve or no spin serve I throw at them. How, I have no idea. Useful thread for many of us. Thank you OP for putting it out there.
I absolutely agree, there are incredible defensive players, period. That's their style and they've mastered it.
However I believe that the answers with "simple you just serve topspin or top side" or just play X or Y are in response to this being a lvl 1600 defensive player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony's Table Tennis
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
🏆 Top 1% Commenter
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
13,221
13,865
31,603
Read 27 reviews
I have a local Ukrainian friend I call John Rambo Daniil... and he seems to absolutely hate playing vs LP, even if it is training. he would rather practice hard running around everywhere striking topspins vs blocks or attacks rather than remember what he put on the ball and have to deal with it.
 
Top