Does anybody else mentally fall apart against pure pushers or weird styles?

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A really old couple sometimes comes to the Slavic Church Mon PMs... and the old woman has an LP that she just sticks it out there and bumps it back... John Rambo Danill was not liking the interruption of his training when the lady jumped into the table. (which is OK, there are only 4 tables and we all play 4 to a table and there were only 3 of us at that time).

My friend Rambo was having a tough time trying to time the ball and figure out how to strike it. he kept hitting the ball out.

it was because he judged the ball to arrive earlier than it did... and he was dropping his bat too low to drive it.

Once he slowed down his timing and resisted the urge to drop his bat real low, he was able to simply get the bat behind the ball at the height of the ball when it came to the strike zone and he got very consistent.

I did not hear or perceive any bad attitude after that from him.

Sometimes, solutions can very simple to implement.
 
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Finally its interesting that many people in this thread didn't recognize that the problem against 1600 player was maybe 80% psychological and 20% technical. A few did recognize that the problem was more of determination to play your own style and avoid getting into his weird style.
You said your formula to beat him was to
1) exclusively serve bh, less spin on your serve so easier 3rd ball.
2) loop every one of his long serves with bh loop/flick, rather than pushing his serve.
3) Changed bh rubber to Dragon grip.

Maybe the psychological change was that previously you felt like you couldn't win and gave up whereas after writing here you went back with a game plan but I see those as tactical changes rather than any psychological transformation.
But I can't see that anyone misdiagnosed the issue either, you stated the issue in your first post, you said you fell apart mentally.
But you also asked for the best way to handle it so most people specified tactics and what to practise, not psychological help! Well done though, I'm happy to hear it worked.
I have my own league nemesis who plays similarly to your guy. This entire post is extremely helpful as I approach the new season!
 
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Gozo, for you, I recommend you switch to sandpaper. That will be the best setup for the game you play. :) Everyone else, equipment does not matter as much as training as long as you are using something you enjoy using. But sandpaper for Gozo's hulk smash will make him invinceable!
Sighing in dejection & disappointment...

There is no such thing as sandpaper game in my locale. I, as an example only learn of sandpaper game exist after coming to an international / western forum like TTD.
 
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Sighing in dejection & disappointment...

There is no such thing as sandpaper game in my locale. I, as an example only learn of sandpaper game exist after coming to an international / western forum like TTD.
Gozo will come into sandpaper with a 15mm thick blade and still wack the heck out of the ball.
 
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Gozo will come into sandpaper with a 15mm thick blade and still wack the heck out of the ball.
IMG_9603.jpeg

Go BIG or go HOME!
 
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So a interesting new player showed up and played with me.

He said he was on the same corporate team with Lin Yun Ju when he was 14 and Lin was 10. They played for a bank in Taipei. He said at that time Lin hired his own coach from China named Ji Ge.

Apparently he hasnt played for 8 years so he is a bit rusty, but he looks about 2100-2200 to me.

I actually won when we played a match, but I think he will get better from here as he gets his feeling back.
 
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So a interesting new player showed up and played with me.

He said he was on the same corporate team with Lin Yun Ju when he was 14 and Lin was 10. They played for a bank in Taipei. He said at that time Lin hired his own coach from China named Ji Ge.

Apparently he hasnt played for 8 years so he is a bit rusty, but he looks about 2100-2200 to me.

I actually won when we played a match, but I think he will get better from here as he gets his feeling back.
what is his name

Je Ge is the previous previous Chinese coach
 
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what is his name

Je Ge is the previous previous Chinese coach
I didn't get his name, but back then he would've been using his Chinese name in Taiwan. He said he played for United Bank or something.

Also he said that when he was 14, he was better than LYJ. But obviously LYJ got a lot better.
 
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I didn't get his name, but back then he would've been using his Chinese name in Taiwan. He said he played for United Bank or something.

Also he said that when he was 14, he was better than LYJ. But obviously LYJ got a lot better.
Taiwan Co-Op Bank is the name of the bank.
it is a corporate sponsor basically, which has over 100 players under its sponsorship

the range of 4 years older than LYJ and now 26 years old or stop playing at 18 is properly not that many.

your guy there was possible U12 national team before to get the sponsorship.
and if only 2100~2200 now, or high of 2300~2400, he probably never gotten U15 or U18 national team status.
 
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Maybe I'll take a video sometime, but he has a really difficult reverse pendulum serve. I keep going to push it and it flies right off the table.

He also said the Taiwan #3 player was also on the same team as him and LYJ. I think he was referring to Kao Cheng-Jui

And he said LYJ hired coach Ji Ge, but after LYJ started improving too much, the Chinese government forced Ji Ge to go back to China to prevent him from coaching LYJ. And that's why LYJ had to hire his new coach who is Chinese in Japan. I dunno if that's really true or not.
 
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Today I played a 1600 rated guy who only pushes nonstop. They just push to my backhand all the time. Normally my bh loop against underspin is my strength...but for some reason I totally fell apart mentally against a guy who only pushes to my bh. What is going on?

I think maybe because he's pushing so much, my body gets too used to pushing and when I want to loop my body is stiff and doesn't flow.

I think also because psychologically I know he will never do anything, it seems to put me in a zombie state where I can't do anything. Not just my bh loop, but every part of my game starts falling apart.

What is the best way to handle this type of situation? I heard from other players as well that this individual often takes down much higher rated "traditional" players. But his own rating never goes up because he doesn't have the other techniques to beat the lower ranked players.
I think you could benefit from several adjustments:
1) Do a "Moregard" backhand opener - as somebody has already mentioned, you can easily open a rally via a short stroke with an open racket. This only requires you to have a grippy rubber and a solid wrist movement forward. The boll will most likely be float and very uncomfortable for the opponent.
2) Do more pivots to forehand - regardless of how high you rate your backhand, it's always easier to attack underpin via a wide stroke from forehand.
3) Don't serve backspin and don't make pushes yourself - such "weird" players excel at backspin points, they pretty much know all backspin variations and can make the best use of it. Don't give him such luxury.
4) Focus on spin - do a wider, Chinese-alike movement where you raise your hand to the sky after a stroke. This will ensure you lead the ball on the table with quality spin.
5) Vary length of the ball - in my opinion, against such players it's more important to vary length of the ball rather than varying directions. At least, if we are talking about having a stable rally and making your opponent uncomfortable.

Funnily enough, I am in the opposite situation. I myself lack power against solid 2-winged loopers who have good counter-topspin technique. At the same time, I reap rating from "weird pushers" and defenders thanks to playing low-power/heavy-spin stable shots across the table until defenders crumble.
 
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Interesting thread. I think some answers with "simple you just serve topspin or top side" or just play X or Y do not appreciate that some players do have an incredible push game that is difficult to overcome at mid level play. I have played some pushers who absolutely could push any and every spin serve or no spin serve I throw at them. How, I have no idea. Useful thread for many of us. Thank you OP for putting it out there.
Since then 2000 players are “mid level” I bet on this forum 80-90% of players are never achieved that level. 1500-1600 is mid so yeah on that levels you can be very good at pushing and win a lot of games by this tactic - precisely pushing everything to different part of the table - but closer you get to 2000 it is became less effective because people who get there are used to battle through a lot of styles including all day long pushers/blockers and they will attack your pushes/serves much more often.

Long pips and pips players those are slightly other story - because their pushing and blocking can have much more variations in spins that can throw off even 2000+ players.

If you think that playing against inverted pushing at 1600 is some kind of high mathematics (“not that simple like x and y”) - your either even lower level or just lacking of experience in tt overall.

But anyway every style can be mastered to a very high level - we just need to separate 1600/ ex nationals/and the guys like Naplyokov that are probably 2600+ now because those are totally different things
 
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Maybe I'll take a video sometime, but he has a really difficult reverse pendulum serve. I keep going to push it and it flies right off the table.

He also said the Taiwan #3 player was also on the same team as him and LYJ. I think he was referring to Kao Cheng-Jui

And he said LYJ hired coach Ji Ge, but after LYJ started improving too much, the Chinese government forced Ji Ge to go back to China to prevent him from coaching LYJ. And that's why LYJ had to hire his new coach who is Chinese in Japan. I dunno if that's really true or not.
Taiwan co-op bank has 80% of all Taiwanese national team members from U12 to seniors
so, almost everyone is of the same team as him and LYJ.

The other team are Cathay Table Tennis (girls) team - of which I talk about often and then First Bank (only boys).
Taiwan Co-Op is the biggest in terms of players count and cater for both genders.
Cathay is the only one where there are a proper team and train together.

Regarding the coach, Ji Ge was a former CNT B team coach (he was coach for some famous players like Coach Qin, ZJK etc) he left CNT and went back to his provincial team - Shandong Luneng and was head coach of the womens team until he got cancer and move to the backend while he treated his health until recovery.
Then he retired from Shandong in 2014 due to poor health and he was invited by one of my friends to Taiwan to recovery and treat his health. With his stay in Taiwan, my friend got the Lin family and Ji Ge to meet up and from there, Ji Ge started to guide LYJ while he was recovering from his illness.
If I recall, LYJ was already 13 by that time. Before that, LYJ was training at Songshan senior high, where I also go to often.
Ji Ge continued to coach until in 2019 or 2020, he went back to China and got stuck there with Covid 19 lockdown and couldn't return to Taiwan and Hua Ping took over in the interim. Hua Ping is a coach at Songshan senior high, while current coach for Lin is Wei Chinguan. According to my friend, Je Ge's health is still a concern.
Both Hua and Wei are Japanese citizens

LYJ played in the CTTA Jia A league in 2019, where he dominated many players. This was the same year LYJ became famous for most of the western world
 
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Really good comments here.

About changing rubber, I think it was maybe 70% psychological and 30% technical. Mentally it really does give me confidence to loop. I know i have at least 3 games coming, he will not loop a single time but push every time to my bh. It really gives me confidence knowing I have a strong hybrid rubber on my bh to go and loop his ball. And 30% technical is that actually there is some real benefit to looping with hybrid. I think this fact is well observed already.

I havent posted video lately, but in the past 8 months or so, i really have been working on looping earlier in the rally. Particularly on looping opponents serve. I would agree with you that this strategy is of particular value. I feel i need to loop the opponent serve to play equal with those 1950 and 2000 players. When I execute it well, then I can genuinely win those matches.

To a lesser degree i have been working on the counter loop. Im much more confident counterlooping away from the table than counterloop near the table. I use the near table counterloop sometime, but i find it hard to practice. I had another thread on this topic.

Finally its interesting that many people in this thread didn't recognize that the problem against 1600 player was maybe 80% psychological and 20% technical. A few did recognize that the problem was more of determination to play your own style and avoid getting into his weird style.

The main thrust of this thread that i wanted to discuss was the experience of totally shutting down. Your body just crumbles and cant execute what you know its capable of. Im sure im not the only one who has done this before. I feel this issue didnt get discussed well and became focused on technical ability of looping underspin.

If simply changing tactics to attack as early as possible caused you to win overwhelmingly, then the tactical aspect cannot be overlooked.

But I do think you have a point that, as you got drawn into longer push rallies, the mental issues were brought to the forefront of your experience in the match and you started falling apart. So, the mental stuff should not be overlooked.

But, having a solid tactical approach (attack as early as possible) would have never let this opponent break you down mentally. :) Even though this player does not present a threat of attack, the threat of being drawn into long push rallies where you feel awkward and lose confidence in your attacks is why the tactic of attacking as early as possible took care of the issue.

So, bad tactics lead to your mental game being broken down as you played your opponent's game and were not figuring out how to change the scenario.

Once you changed the tactics, the mind issues, the jedi mind tricks, the stuff that caused you to lose confidence, they never even came up. Hard to separate the two.

One time I watched a high level coach (Damien Provost at the time 2700+ and an excellent coach) working with a friend who was a 2200-2300 level player. They would do training sessions that would last a few hours. At one point in this particular session, Damien put his racket down and yelled in frustration. Then he explained to the player: "you have at least 2400 level technique, BUT your game strategy is 1200 level. You have to stop that and use better tactics."

I think 1200 level tactics was an exaggeration but the player I am talking about did like to mess around and do silly things.

Anyway, I think, often, at least in videos from the past, you have been using tactics that will work on lower level opponents so that you can win without training skills that will help you improve, and without using tactics that would be useful vs higher level players. It sounds like you are now making those changes already. But what got you to break down mentally against this push player is one of those low level tactics where you let the other player mess up instead of taking the initiative right at the outset of each point.

Working on this until it is comfortable will help you find out what your next steps are and will open the door to other aspects of TT technique that you don't yet realize you need to work on:

- If you are playing a good looping player, can you counterloop with that player over and over in a rally where you are both trying to overpower the other.
- If you are playing a decent level chopper, how many of his chops can you loop in a row before you have to push to reset the rally?

(For both of the above, the scenarios would be based on play in an actual match not in training).

When you watch higher level players, they can counterloop over and over even when their opponent is ripping heavy topspin loops at them over and over from high angles. And vs a good chopper, a high level player may choose to loop, then push and loop, then push but they can loop many times in a row when they want.

Last thing, tactical, but requires footwork: if you know that your opponent is going to push long to your BH, stepping over and pivoting to the FH, and looping to the opponent's deep BH (so he can't get you out of position and open on your FH) would be something that should be in your bag of tricks. It is another technique you may not want to use all the time. But if the pattern is that predictable, then doing the footwork to the FH in order to make the player pay with the FH will get inside that player's head.

It is a basic tool. You should have it in your toolkit at the level you are playing at.
 
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Wait till you play long pimp pusher. Especially if he likes to switch around FH BH middle game to mess you around. LOL.
There is a long pip pusher 70 year old man that I practice with. We never play games, but i already know it'll be ugly just from our rallies.

His push and block is too good and he gets my loops back. If i give him a neutral shot, he just punches with his pips to my corners and Im dead.
Wait till you play long pimp pusher. Especially if he likes to switch around FH BH middle game to mess you around. LOL.
 
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if ur shot is not falling, then push it back. That said, you need a shot thats 100% going to work. For me that's FH loop underspin. No matter how spiny i'll be able to open. A player needs to develop that so there's always something to fall back on.
So if i loop to his LP and he chops it back, I find I only have 2 options: loop or push.

If i push, then he uses the LP to do a kind of side-swipe or punch shot. He aims at my 2 corners and it makes for a deadish awkward ball but fast ball. This fast, dead ball is hard to deal with.

If i loop, i find that the chop off the LP has a lot more spin that normal, and looping this feels like a high risk shot.
 
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So if i loop to his LP and he chops it back, I find I only have 2 options: loop or push.

If i push, then he uses the LP to do a kind of side-swipe or punch shot. He aims at my 2 corners and it makes for a deadish awkward ball but fast ball. This fast, dead ball is hard to deal with.

If i loop, i find that the chop off the LP has a lot more spin that normal, and looping this feels like a high risk shot.
There is a 3rd option, just lift the underspin ball with open racket angle with a fake loop aftermotion - make sure to alternate between your real loop and the 'fake' opening loop for max effect. Almost all the LP players I played with hate this shot immensely, and you will see them randomly make unforced errors against it.

Also the power of this fake loop is that it doesnt have much spin and is floaty so he has no spin or pace to borrow. The return will also be weak spin and will be your opportunity ball, so just finish it off with conviction. If he blocks it back with the LP just rinse and repeat.

If he starts adjusting for the fake loop, just bring in the heavy guns and turn on your real loop - for sure he is just going to shoot it out of the table.

The other thing is placement. They have max control if their body is close to the ball. But once it is far away it is a problem for them. So for penhold players who kinda hug the BH side, wide FH is the best place to attack. If the hug the middle the wide BH is the best. For shakehand LP players it is even easier, just attack middle and the nonLP side.

The LP players also know this so a lot of their strategies involve trying to pin you to your BH to make it hard for you to target their FH. This is where you need to train BH loop down the line (a lot of ppl only can do BH diagonal opening loop confidently). If you have access to this their defences will be blown wide open.
 
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So if i loop to his LP and he chops it back, I find I only have 2 options: loop or push.

If i push, then he uses the LP to do a kind of side-swipe or punch shot. He aims at my 2 corners and it makes for a deadish awkward ball but fast ball. This fast, dead ball is hard to deal with.

If i loop, i find that the chop off the LP has a lot more spin that normal, and looping this feels like a high risk shot.
I played someone like this before but maybe not as good as the person you're describing.
I'm guesstimating my level at around 1800~ maybe and my opponent was probably around 1500~ level...


I was losing the match 2-0, he kept doing this strawberry type flick/swipe with his long pimples and I had so much trouble because of the speed and ball height variation that really catches me off guard... I did notice though that every time does that strawberry flick/swipe it always goes to my forehand or wide forehand, when I noticed that I just anticipated it and hit the FH every time since then. Was able to catch up and win the match 3-2.

"If i push, then he uses the LP to do a kind of side-swipe or punch shot. He aims at my 2 corners and it makes for a deadish awkward ball but fast ball. This fast, dead ball is hard to deal with."
That thing I had trouble with just like you but my opponent could only bring it to my fh side, if he could control it at will I'm sure I wouldn't stand a chance.

Another thing it's good to loop into the middle of the table, although they'll still use their LP more often than not but it will still have them hesitate a tad bit, another thing I like to do would be to hit a spinny/fast FH into their FH or wide FH at times they would use their inverted rubber and it would mess them up.
 
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