Equipment Reviews now on TTD

[Pnachtwey]

Don't give in to the marketing hype

The only thing with not adding control is that manufacturers add control to their products so the review system would have to input those fields.

The control ratings on rubber are simply marketing hype, in fact most of the ratings are but control is definitely without any justification. How does one measure control? Control to do what. I am an older engineer and I know that if a system is to be controable it must have feed back. Rubbers and paddles do not have feed back but people do with their sight, hearing and feel.

I think it is misleading for post a control rating that might influence a newbie to buy a rubber thinking that it will solve his control problems. I think it is much better to ignore the control field and not mislead anybody. I think it is better to suggest to the new players that more practice and play will improve the PLAYERS control.

Dan, you have no skin in this rating game. As far as I know you have no finiancial interest in selling equipment so why not keep your data as factual as possible and be the ONE credible source of TT ratings or a close as one can be given the lack of testing equipment.

Hardness ratings are also bogus and only useful withing a company's own rating systems. First, if the sponge is made of the same material then a thinner sponge will be harder than a thicker sponge. For example, if it takes 10N to compress a 0.5mm sponge 0.1mm, the same 10N force will compress a 2mm of the same material 0.4mm. If you go do the Paddle Palace website and see their ratings you can see there is only one rating for all thicknesses. This is definitely wrong.

However when the community review a product perhaps we could bring in the suitability section for which style the reviewer recommends best for?

Yes, that would be good. This may be the most useful field of them all because a person can see if the rubber is suitable for his skill level and style of play.

Even within certain types of rubber I find that thickness plays a big part in my evaluation. For instance my experience with Rakza 7 is a perfect example. I find that thinner rubbers are better for playing close to the table where touch and control are key but thicker rubbers are better when trading loops 2 meters back where one doesn't want a hard hit ball to 'bottom out' the rubber.

Another field you might add is consistency. I bought a sheet of Apollo 2.5 years ago. I really liked it but when I bought my second sheet it was awful. There were small finger prints in the rubber as if it was handled just after molding. The new Apollo was barely tacky and certainly no where close to the legendary tackiness of the initial Apollos. My first Apollo still played better than the new Apollo even though it is 2 years older. I will not buy another Apollo.

I probably wouldn't have made such a long post but one of my practice partners is looking for a replacement for his 6 year old Mark V. He said there are too many rubbers to choose from. I told him he should just buy another set of Mark V but he didn't want to spend the money. He bought some Gambler rubber that he was told by the seller would play similar to Mark V but he didn't like it at all. His complaint to me last Saturday when we last played is that the rubber ratings are almost meaningless and I must agree. Fortunately for him I have a lot of rubbers to try and he found one he liked that didn't cost a lot but most of us don't have access to a rubber library where we can 'check out' the rubber to try before buying our own copy.

I want you to get a good start and most importantly, a credible start. There is too much bogus information in the TT world.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Dan, you are finally getting this up and running. That is great. The addition of this feature will make Table Tennis Daily far and away the best table tennis forum on the planet. It already is, but, this will make it more so.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

@Pnachtwey

I think you are overreacting a little. I get what you are saying. But this is how I would think of this. Reviews are just that, reviews. If you have 10 different people playing with the same equipment all review one particular rubber, their answers will be similar, but different. If you have 10 different people all using vastly different equipment, their reviews of one piece of equipment will be significantly different. Our style of play and our level of play effect how we experience a particular piece of equipment. But, in the case of a rubber, for example, the rubber we are using will affect our experience of another rubber. So the reviews are just a broad overview. They could never replace feeling a piece of equipment for ourself.

With the issue of control, I believe you might be mixing two things up. A player has a certain amount of control. Is the stroke consistent, is their timing consistent, does their footwork put them in a good place to take a good stroke, are they able to place the ball well when they hit, etc. This is the version of control you seem to be talking about. Different equipment has general tendencies towards control. Now you do make a good point. A particular rubber that, overall, over a large range of strokes might exhibit an ability to help a player have a little more control of where the ball goes, might not be good at certain things. As you point out, Short Pips are not so great for slow, high, spinny loops. But over a range of shots, they are less affected by incoming spin and therefore allow a player to have more control over certain aspects of returning the ball. A slower blade that has a softer surface and more dwell time, will give a player more of an ability to hold the ball on the rubber for longer and direct the ball where he/she wants it to go. It will not change the player's consistency in stroke and timing. But it will make it more possible for that player to place the ball where he/she is aiming, anyway. Even though the player has not got a lot of control over his strokes and timing, that player, with a Butterfly Primorac Off- (all wood) blade and Sriver FX rubbers will exhibit much more control than he would with a Schlager Carbon and Tenergy 25. A professional player with very consistent strokes, timing and footwork will be able to control the Schlager Carbon with Tenergy 25 because of how good their technique is, and they might find the Primorac Off- with Sriver FX too slow but the equipment will still afford the player more control than the faster setup even if they do not need that extra control. As you point out, there will be exceptions to what you can control with any equipment. For example, Long Pips give you lots of control when chopping against loop. But you damn sure cannot loop with them unless someone gives you heavy underspin and you really know what to do with them.

Again, the biggest flaw with reviews is that they are subjective opinions of arbitrary people. The kind of blade and rubber you use will affect how you experience a different rubber or blade. A player who is of a higher level who tends to use many different setups and try lots and lots of different equipment on a daily basis will have a more objective perspective than most players, but it will still be subjective. Reviews are subjective. You cannot get around that. I know many people who actually like that Gambler rubber. I have no idea why. I do not like it. And I find it wears out faster than anything else I have ever seen. I don't like how it plays when it is new and to me it flat out sucks when it is worn out and it wears out in about 1 week for me. But, I know plenty of people who would have made that same recommendation. Reviews are subjective. But if there was nothing else, and all you had ever used was Gambler, you might get used to it and feel like it was good.

The equipment we use and what we get used to determines a certain amount of what we feel to be good or "normal". I had a friend who was given a used Stiga Clipper and at first he hated it and wanted something else and he was trying blade after blade. But he was a fussy character. After months he was still using that Clipper and still trying other blades wanting something else. Now, granted, this was actually a messed up Clipper. Someone had messed with it and one side was slower than the other. He used the slower side on his forehand. At a certain point, he got so used to it and stopped looking for another blade. And then, if he used a blade where both sides were the same speed, he felt like there was something wrong with the blade because the backhand side was too slow or the forehand side was too fast. In short, he had gotten so used to the blade he was using that everything else felt unbalanced because he was using a blade that was unbalanced. And in the end he grew to love that strange, messed up Clipper that he started out hating.

So, reviews are reviews are reviews and they are not the same thing as trying the equipment for yourself, but they are better than nothing and they are fun to read and write.

Thanks for your insights Pnachtwey.

 

[XIII]

Dan, you are finally getting this up and running. That is great. The addition of this feature will make Table Tennis Daily far and away the best table tennis forum on the planet. It already is, but, this will make it more so.

I still think TTD is like the 3rd best table tennis forum*, I think there are still more active users in OOAK forum and mytabletennis forum.

*by the looks of it on google when you search 'table tennis forum'

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I still think TTD is like the 3rd best table tennis forum*, I think there are still more active users in OOAK forum and mytabletennis forum.

*by the looks of it on google when you search 'table tennis forum'

Ah, but this place is more like family and there is so much to offer here. The live stream with chat. The news updating on the home page. People who help each other. This site is pretty complete. It is not just a discussion forum.

 

[Dan]

I still think TTD is like the 3rd best table tennis forum*, I think there are still more active users in OOAK forum and mytabletennis forum. I also think TTD focuses on quality not quantity

*by the looks of it on google when you search 'table tennis forum'

They also display on google because the site has been around for longer. It would be so difficult to catch them in google with the search as 'table tennis forum'. TTD can only win in the search engine with new releases like... China Super League 2012 which it does win

Sent from my S2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dan]

Ah, but this place is more like family and there is so much to offer here. The live stream with chat. The news updating on the home page. People who help each other. This site is pretty complete. It is not just a discussion forum.

Very kind words there Carl

Sent from my S2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Very kind words there Carl

And the proof of my words being more than just words, I asked you about this equipment review forum at least a year and a half ago and you have really been working on how to set it up. I cannot wait for it to be part of Table Tennis Daily. Great Job. Thank you.

 

[TableTennisDaily]

And the proof of my words being more than just words, I asked you about this equipment review forum at least a year and a half ago and you have really been working on how to set it up. I cannot wait for it to be part of Table Tennis Daily. Great Job. Thank you.

I remember this post very well from you Carl I would have set things up sooner just had so many other things to sort out first. But don't you worry, this equipment's review will live up to expectations!

Happy New Year buddy

 

[TableTennisDaily]

The control ratings on rubber are simply marketing hype, in fact most of the ratings are but control is definitely without any justification. How does one measure control? Control to do what. I am an older engineer and I know that if a system is to be controable it must have feed back. Rubbers and paddles do not have feed back but people do with their sight, hearing and feel.

I think it is misleading for post a control rating that might influence a newbie to buy a rubber thinking that it will solve his control problems. I think it is much better to ignore the control field and not mislead anybody. I think it is better to suggest to the new players that more practice and play will improve the PLAYERS control.

Dan, you have no skin in this rating game. As far as I know you have no finiancial interest in selling equipment so why not keep your data as factual as possible and be the ONE credible source of TT ratings or a close as one can be given the lack of testing equipment.

Hardness ratings are also bogus and only useful withing a company's own rating systems. First, if the sponge is made of the same material then a thinner sponge will be harder than a thicker sponge. For example, if it takes 10N to compress a 0.5mm sponge 0.1mm, the same 10N force will compress a 2mm of the same material 0.4mm. If you go do the Paddle Palace website and see their ratings you can see there is only one rating for all thicknesses. This is definitely wrong.


Yes, that would be good. This may be the most useful field of them all because a person can see if the rubber is suitable for his skill level and style of play.

Even within certain types of rubber I find that thickness plays a big part in my evaluation. For instance my experience with Rakza 7 is a perfect example. I find that thinner rubbers are better for playing close to the table where touch and control are key but thicker rubbers are better when trading loops 2 meters back where one doesn't want a hard hit ball to 'bottom out' the rubber.

Another field you might add is consistency. I bought a sheet of Apollo 2.5 years ago. I really liked it but when I bought my second sheet it was awful. There were small finger prints in the rubber as if it was handled just after molding. The new Apollo was barely tacky and certainly no where close to the legendary tackiness of the initial Apollos. My first Apollo still played better than the new Apollo even though it is 2 years older. I will not buy another Apollo.

I probably wouldn't have made such a long post but one of my practice partners is looking for a replacement for his 6 year old Mark V. He said there are too many rubbers to choose from. I told him he should just buy another set of Mark V but he didn't want to spend the money. He bought some Gambler rubber that he was told by the seller would play similar to Mark V but he didn't like it at all. His complaint to me last Saturday when we last played is that the rubber ratings are almost meaningless and I must agree. Fortunately for him I have a lot of rubbers to try and he found one he liked that didn't cost a lot but most of us don't have access to a rubber library where we can 'check out' the rubber to try before buying our own copy.

I want you to get a good start and most importantly, a credible start. There is too much bogus information in the TT world.

I've taken everything on board, thanks for the feedback Pnachtwey. Will look into this during the building and testing phase

 

[Pnachtwey]

I really think that any evaluation that is less that what PathfindPro provides is substandard.

Subscribe to his channel and then search for his evaluations of thick vs thicker rubbers and H3 vs H3 Neo rubbers. There is also a good video about anti and pips.

BTW, a month or so ago I posted a thread about high speed video at 2000 FPS. A quick question, have any of you access to a high speed camera like that or know where you can find high speed video like I provided? I think not. If so I wouldn't have bothered. It takes time to make these videos.

UpSideDownCarl and XIII should know that this information is posted HERE and not on the other two ignorant sites.

From my video you should know that the dwell is much shorter than the 5 to 6 milliseconds you will read on ignorant TT forum like mytt and ooak. There is no one there to do the math or physics.

What you guys must realize is that I am an old grumpy no nonsense engineer with engineering resources that most of you can't imagine. Being old is not good for TT playing ability but it is very good for knowing how things, like TT, really work.

My practice partner calibrated equipment while he was in the air force. BTW, he was stationed in England for a few years by Ipswitch. We are both 59 yrs old. We both think a lot of you are totally clueless when it comes to rating rubbers because the ratings are subjective. It really isn't yours or anybodys fault. It is the TT manufacturers that are misleading and out right lying and defrauding all of you.

So, UpSideDownCarl, am I over reacting? I don't think so. Do you want me to list a lot of links that are outright fraudulent? Like I said, Dan has no bone in this fight. Why can't this site be honest unlike the other sites?

 

[XIII]

They also display on google because the site has been around for longer. It would be so difficult to catch them in google with the search as 'table tennis forum'. TTD can only win in the search engine with new releases like... China Super League 2012 which it does win

Sent from my S2 using Tapatalk 2

Then does it mean that we are more popular but have less active members?

 

[Dan]

Then does it mean that we are more popular but have less active members?

Well, it is hard to tell, but with TableTennisDaily's social media helping the majority of the traffic I would say TableTennisDaily receives more visitors. However I am not 100% sure. Each month averagely there are 35.000 unique visitors browsing the TTD. I think this year there will be a lot more active users, fingers crossed

 

[TableTennisDaily]

ok here goes...
see what it does? it shows you how many of each star the product has received.
the amazon review system does that too so have a look at that also

View attachment 3274

Hey buddy do you have a bigger version of this? I cannot see it properly as the resolution is to small

 

[jmillsy2]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...re-reviews-reviewers-bias-positive%2F;300;215

there is a link to an image, i was thinking have something like that, with the equipment name displayed too of course

 

[Dan]

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=app+store+review+page&oq=app+store+review+page&gs_l=img.3...704.4074.0.4405.21.15.0.6.6.0.164.1465.12j3.15.0...0.0...1ac.1.5.img.B4zEQON5jsk#imgrc=D7djrjfvsS_r2M%3A%3Bq9kBrFAxFMbvgM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F10%252Fapp-reviews.png%253Fw%253D300%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftechcrunch.com%252F2012%252F10%252F05%252Fapple-app-store-reviews-reviewers-bias-positive%252F%3B300%3B215

there is a link to an image, i was thinking have something like that, with the equipment name displayed too of course

Thank you! Awesome, we will implement something along these lines It's looking great so far.

 

[Davott]

Perhaps a suggestion to implement a rewards system into the equipment reviews - each review is rated by its usefulness and some form of reward based on that?

I only make that suggestion because when the system is opened, it's going to be completely bare and nothing compared to tabletennisdb.com

 

[Dan]

Perhaps a suggestion to implement a rewards system into the equipment reviews - each review is rated by its usefulness and some form of reward based on that?

I only make that suggestion because when the system is opened, it's going to be completely bare and nothing compared to tabletennisdb.com

Thanks for the feedback Davott, yes you are right it will be totally bare in comparison to tabletennisdb however in good time the reviews system will improve and get better You are right in terms of a reward system. The reviews will allow us to rate if we like the review. The highest rated reviews will display at the top of the pack, so new users will see the highest rated review at the start

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I really think that any evaluation that is less that what PathfindPro provides is substandard.

I think that PathfindPro's in depth analysis is great. But I am not sure that there are that many people who are interested in that much information on the subject. Most people just want to know, how does that rubber or blade feel, does it work well, will I like it. There is definitely science behind why a Timo Boll ALC or ZLF blade is really good and does what it does. But most people want to know more of whether it is a blade that will make their game better. However, there is nothing wrong with being one of those people who likes going more into depth about the subject.

So, UpSideDownCarl, am I over reacting? I don't think so. Do you want me to list a lot of links that are outright fraudulent? Like I said, Dan has no bone in this fight. Why can't this site be honest unlike the other sites?

Well, maybe it is just me, but you sound a bit bent out of shape about what you are saying and how strongly you want others to agree with you as though there is no other answer besides yours.

You have a good point. I said that already, but, it is not the whole story.

So, I would say, yeah, I do think you are being a bit over the top.

Here is how I would look at it. The stuff that table tennis companies say about their products is not what I would call reviews. It is marketing and most of that is nonsense. Here: a description from DHS about Hurricane 3 NEO: "Powerful "NEO" sponge and Hurricane 3 rubber with special glutinosity could create stable and high-speed arc, improve hte scoring ability of players, NEO Hurricane 3 has a high speed and low fast loop, changeful arc, strong spin."

That really means almost nothing. It is marketing. "Glutinosity"? But, it is so stupid who is going to pay attention to it.

So there are the things that the companies say to try and get you to buy their products.

Then there are reviews of products by people who use the products and like them. These are most helpful when a person can explain what the product does well and what it does not do well. But, the truth is, when most people read those pier product reviews they are just looking for confirmation that they want a product.

If there was a good system where people reviewed products and really tried tons of table tennis equipment and were payed to try and compare pretty much everything that is out there, and the person was writing with as little bias as possible, that would be great. But I don't think that exists.

So, now lets talk about the term "control" used to refer to the properties of a rubber.

Pnachtwey has correctly informed us that rubbers do not have more or less control. That humans have that. This is true.

My nose is running. Okay, it is not really. But most people on this list would know and understand, if I said that, what I meant. They would not think my nose has gone off to the park in a pair of Nike jogging shoes. What does nose running really mean. There are a few things. Sorry to be graphic, but, it could be dripping liquid that is related to mucous but not as viscous. It could be dripping mucous. It could be filled with softer more liquidy mucous which would cause you to have to blow your nose over and over again. It could be filled with thicker, dryer, more viscous mucous that is blocking your nasal passages. Any of these could be what is being referred to when someone says, "my nose is running". It is a convention of language and most people know what you mean when you say, "my nose is running". Even though it could mean several things.

So, regardless of where it started from, table tennis players and table tennis companies use the term "control" when referring to a rubber and when referring to a blade. I could probably write way to much on the blade phenomenon, but it is more complicated than the rubber phenomenon, so I will leave the blade thing out. It has to do with hardness or softness of outer ply, inner plies, the way they are combined, and speed. Also with how some companies are using material that is softer like Arylate next to material that is harder like carbon as an inner ply. But I am going to talk about rubbers instead.

So, some rubbers generate more spin and are more reactive to the spin that is coming at them. This could be tested by a ball with a particular kind of spin coming at a racket that is facing the ball, sort of like some of the tests that PathFindPro uses to test compare AntiSpin, Long Pips, Medium Pips and Short Pips. A ball with a specific amount of spin moving towards and coming into contact with Butterfly Tenergy 05, Xiom Omega IV Pro and Butterfly Sriver, will come off of the rubber at different speeds, at more or less acute angles, and with more or less spin. The topsheet is reactive to the incoming spin and part of this has to do with how much grip the topsheet has. The sponge affects the spin to some extent relative to the deformation of the sponge. And the sponge affects the speed of the ball coming off the rubber, based on the deformation of the sponge.

If you do a test like what I described above, I am willing to bet that a brand new sheet of Tenergy 05 will cause the ball to come off the rubber faster and at a more acute angle, as a result of the speed and spin of the ball coming in than Sriver. I am also willing to bet that the ball with the same spin and speed coming off a sheet of Omega IV Pro will come off faster and with more spin and at a more acute angle from the spin than the ball coming off of the Tenergy.

Now, as Pnachtwey has correctly pointed out, the control lies with the human action.

So a person playing with Sriver will not need quite as good technique and control of his bat face (stable/unstable), racket angle (closed/open/angled left/angled right for top/side/undnerspin) as he will with Tenergy. You need a larger degree of control to use Tenergy than you do to use Sriver. Said in reverse, when using Sriver, you do not need to have your technique developed to as much of an extent because you have a larger margin for error while still getting the ball on the table. The window--in terms of intercepting the ball in its flight, contacting the ball, moving the racket in a direction that guides the ball towards where you want it to go--is larger: you can do less correctly and still get the ball on.

Often rubbers that create a lot of spin and speed are harder to control. But, not always. Some rubbers are pretty fast and create a lot of spin and still are pretty easy to control. With DHS Hurricane 3 (any version) you can create a lot of spin on serves and on loops close to the table. You can create a lot of speed: especially on loops close to the table. But, that tacky topsheet is oddly not so reactive to incoming spin. So, like with my analogy of a runny nose, what makes a rubber more easy to use for a beginner, and makes it so a player can have more control using a rubber, even when their technique is not so good, is not just one thing.

Yes it is more precise to analyze things like this and be specific. Yes it is a simplification and a convention of language that the term "control" has come to mean a variety of things that indicate that you don't need to be as precise to get the ball on the table in the general vicinity of where you want it to go.

One thing I would suggest, Pnachtwey, is that, if you don't like the term, you don't use it. You don't need to. Another thing I would suggest is that, if you can come up with a better term for that complex of issues that causes a rubber to give you greater room for error while still getting the ball to go where you want it to, which would make it a better rubber for a more beginner player, by all means, find a term. It sounds like a good idea to me.

However, the convention of talking about these things, the reactivity of the topsheet to incoming spin, the amount the rubber grabs the ball, the way the topsheet grabs the ball (sometimes tacky rubber is easier to control than Euro/Jap grippy rubber), the amount of bounce from the sponge, the way certain sponges are simply highly bouncy and the way other sponges are not so bouncy when the pace is slow and the force is minimal and then when the force is greater and the bat speed is faster, the sponge has more catapult: the convention of referring to these things as the control of the rubber WILL PROBABLY NOT GO AWAY.

It is easy to say, Sriver has good control. It might be a little lazy. But, most people would know what I meant. And most people would not get their hair up in a bunch about it.

By the way, I am not soooo old, but I am not a kiddy. It is true that you are approximately 11 years older than me. But 48 seems like a good age to me, for now. Thanks for your input, Pnachtwey. Peace.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I really am looking forward to having this feature on Table Tennis Daily.