Experience with some other Loki rubbers - Arthur China, GTX Pro (inc)

[Tony's Table Tennis]

haha
I'm full now from the dumplings.

Well, I have a bit of energy to explain for all those that are confused like TB (or is he the only one?)

Well, Rxton 9 as stated pages ago (I won't bother go find the post no) is a benchmark with H3 #22 National.
Yes, the flag ship DHS rubber,
Loki is taking on the king!

a price was mentioned $28~32 or so, which is about half the price as the king. It's even cheaper than a H3 #22 provincial
But then TB cut the price in half to a H3 Commercial (so from something cheap, it is now over priced? So to give Loki respect, I had to ask questions and the rest is history)

Well, H3 #20 C does not equal H3 #22 N, so you can't compare apples with oranges
H3 C is comparable to the cheaper rxton 3 / 5
#22 H3 N is compared to the rxton 9
This is the correct comparison for both product and price

so back to TB comment about Fan Zhendong with commercial H3....
well, he would do better with R9 in his hands than a commercial H3, since R9 is an apple, while H3 #20 is an orange.

So, for those who understand what is a H3 #22 National, then it is worth your while to spend $30 or so when it is available.

 

[hclnnkhg]

Sorry about hijacking the thread back to H3, but I have the following hypothesis about the TT11 test.

No doubt they are good players. But do they usually play with tacky Chinese rubber? If they always play with ESN rubbers (or Neottec rubbers, apparently they love it), then their lack of experience with tacky rubber may have affected their sensitivities towards different version of Hurricanes. Maybe they cannot even tell H3 from Battle 2 or Jupiter 3. Whereas someone who may not be as good as the TT11 guys, but have spent years playing with tacky rubbers, would be more sensitive about the different H3s, but think "all ESN rubbers feel the same to me".

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Sorry about hijacking the thread back to H3, but I have the following hypothesis about the TT11 test.

No doubt they are good players. But do they usually play with tacky Chinese rubber? If they always play with ESN rubbers (or Neottec rubbers, apparently they love it), then their lack of experience with tacky rubber may have affected their sensitivities towards different version of Hurricanes. Maybe they cannot even tell H3 from Battle 2 or Jupiter 3. Whereas someone who may not be as good as the TT11 guys, but have spent years playing with tacky rubbers, would be more sensitive about the different H3s, but think "all ESN rubbers feel the same to me".

I think you raise a fair point.
I can't use soft rubbers. my review on very soft rubbers would not be credible and the same should apply for the total opposite.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Sorry about hijacking the thread back to H3, but I have the following hypothesis about the TT11 test.

No doubt they are good players. But do they usually play with tacky Chinese rubber? If they always play with ESN rubbers (or Neottec rubbers, apparently they love it), then their lack of experience with tacky rubber may have affected their sensitivities towards different version of Hurricanes. Maybe they cannot even tell H3 from Battle 2 or Jupiter 3. Whereas someone who may not be as good as the TT11 guys, but have spent years playing with tacky rubbers, would be more sensitive about the different H3s, but think "all ESN rubbers feel the same to me".

Good question, I know at least 2 of the guys actually use H3 as their regular rubber. Not sure the other players.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

haha
I'm full now from the dumplings.

Well, I have a bit of energy to explain for all those that are confused like TB (or is he the only one?)

Well, Rxton 9 as stated pages ago (I won't bother go find the post no) is a benchmark with H3 #22 National.
Yes, the flag ship DHS rubber,
Loki is taking on the king!

a price was mentioned $28~32 or so, which is about half the price as the king. It's even cheaper than a H3 #22 provincial
But then TB cut the price in half to a H3 Commercial (so fro something cheap, it is not over priced?)

Well, H3 #20 C does not equal H3 #22 N, so you can't compare apples with oranges
H3 C if is comparable to the cheaper rxton 3 / 5
#22 H3 N is compared to the rxton 9
This is the correct comparison for both product and price

so back to TB about Fan Zhendong will commercial H3....
well, he would do better with R9 in his hands than a commercial H3, since R9 is an apple, while H3 #20 is an orange.

And this is what I am going to say: if it is on the subject of some kind of bet about H3 with Tony, for you and for Tony, no more comments in this thread. You guys can do that in PMs if you really want to make a bet.

So, regardless of what, if it is about a bet with Tony and the subject is H3 and not the subject of the thread, you should no longer make those comments in this thread.

So, Tony, I asked TensorBH not to comment on the bet about differences between different versions of H3. I am asking you to do the same.

I know you were just explaining where Rxton 9 fits in and why, for some it may a worth trying out. So, I get that. I just want to be fair on that subject of the bet.

Thanks to both of you to take that part of your interaction off the public forum if you choose to continue it.

And I do think it is useful information for people interested in the actual subject of this thread, that Rxton 9 is an attempt at making a rubber comparable to H3N #22 sponge for half the price. For many that will be a good value. And some, like TensorBH, may prefer the less expensive versions for the price savings, regardless of if there are marginal or more than marginal performance differences.

 

[JJ Ng]

Yeah great now im curious af and have to start testing shit again the moment it comes out for us mortal beings. Thanks Tony!
Hope that doesnt happen before the season ends though^^ Dont want to start EJing again in the middle of the season.

Besides, the only enoying part of this discussion is the fact, that we (and especially TB, because you participated in those threads) already discussed H3 in every aspect and have official answers to your questions.

To summ it up a little bit:
H3 OS is categorized in QS levels. While commercial have close to no control whatsoever, so you can have variations in hardness degrees up to 4 points, which would be huge. Imagine sticking 37° onto your bh and it is actually 41 hard. That would make a lot of fun.
Provincial still have some error in QS but it is not higher than 1-2 degree, which for me isnt noticable on fh at least.

H3 BS is a total different story. It is less linear, way more dynamic, less durable, and gives a completely different feeling, especially boosted. And it has lower tolerance for errors.
So i can somewhat understand Tonys reaction. You are simply warming up old topics because you got new insight from some amateurs who run a shop. But by now you should actually know, that ppls reviews wont give much insight on how you gonna play with that setup. In TT there are way to many factors that change everything the moment you change one of them.
On top of that, one review is such a ridiculous low evidence that i simply cant comprehend how you can focus so much on this simple video.

Thank you for summing it up. Honestly I think all that info you put down got lost in the threads somewhere. Or did it get lost in a thread before I joined the forum? Good to hear.

Another thing, to add this, is that for National version, I heard there is less tackiness so for one, some people feel that it is therefore more dynamic right out of the box than commercial and two, some people might compain it has no tackiness.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So, Tony, I asked TensorBH not to comment on the bet about differences between different versions of H3. I am asking you to do the same.

I know you were just explaining where Rxton 9 fits in and why, for some it may a worth trying out. So, I get that. I just want to be fair on that subject of the bet.

Thanks to both of you to take that part of your interaction off the public forum if you choose to continue it.

And I do think it is useful information for people interested in the actual subject of this thread, that Rxton 9 is an attempt at making a rubber comparable to H3N #22 sponge for half the price. For many that will be a good value. And some, like TensorBH, may prefer the less expensive versions for the price savings, regardless of if there are marginal or more than marginal performance differences.

Yeah, I saw that, my post wasn't on the bet or for him (he struggled to understand the dozen prior).

thinking of it, I am the first "non China" based person to test Rxton 9 and here I'm wasting time on TB to educate him on H3 - I actually wished Zeio will link 10 + links to educate him.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Another thing, to add this, is that for National version, I heard there is less tackiness so for one, some people feel that it is therefore more dynamic right out of the box than commercial and two, some people might compain it has no tackiness.

are you talking about R9 or H3?
R9 only have national version

H3 commercial is #20
Pros who use H3, don't use #20 on FH, 99% of them use #22

you get organic and non organic #22 H3
Pros can spec how much tack they want, national (commercial) cannot.

but when you say, out of the box, then it is because of the #22 sponge, not because of the topsheet tack.
without boosting, the #22 is way more alive.
When boosting, the #22 can hold the ball into the sponge for way longer than #20
The #22 is just way better, but only downfall is its durabilty, it last about half the time as #20

When talking specs, for example, the kid's Ma Long rubber, after 3 months, can still tack/hold the ball longer than my new rubber. It was a different spec to start with, quality wise also way better
So, here we talking about commercial vs national, then there is national commercial version vs national pro player spec version.

For any one who want to hear reviews from a pro, Australian Hu Heming, I think few years ago posted videos of his "pro" Tenergy and then when he changed contracts to DHS, he also did a lot of comparison.
He even went as far as showed how Butterfly package its Pro tenergy rubbers (doesn't come in commercial packaging).
Some times, correct info is important, hence i'm sharing a lead.

 

[JJ Ng]

are you talking about R9 or H3?
R9 only have national version

H3 commercial is #20
Pros who use H3, don't use #20 on FH, 99% of them use #22

you get organic and non organic #22 H3
Pros can spec how much tack they want, national (commercial) cannot.

but when you say, out of the box, then it is because of the #22 sponge, not because of the topsheet tack.
without boosting, the #22 is way more alive.
When boosting, the #22 can hold the ball into the sponge for way longer than #20
The #22 is just way better, but only downfall is its durabilty, it last about half the time as #20

When talking specs, for example, the kid's Ma Long rubber, after 3 months, can still tack/hold the ball longer than my new rubber. It was a different spec to start with, quality wise also way better
So, here we talking about commercial vs national, then there is national commercial version vs national pro player spec version.

For any one who want to hear reviews from a pro, Australian Hu Heming, I think few years ago posted videos of his "pro" Tenergy and then when he changed contracts to DHS, he also did a lot of comparison.
He even went as far as showed how Butterfly package its Pro tenergy rubbers (doesn't come in commercial packaging).
Some times, correct info is important, hence i'm sharing a lead.

I mean, I enjoy this thread. Hey I am not the subject being grilled here so I can sit back and relax.

But on a more serious tone, all the back and forth here actually led me to learn something I don't know about DHS such as the difference between #20 and #22 sponge. I guess #20 sponge is before plastic ball, and it is the orange sponge and #22 is DHS' response to the plastic ball and is the blue sponge?

But why would DHs produce orange sponge provincial version and orange sponge national version?

I assume it is just to make money?

I think it make sense to produce just commerical orange sponge, provincial blue sponge and national blue sponge and call it a day.

As for the TT11 comparison video that TB referred to, I like the video. I agree. I think at least two out of the four testers use hurricane and one of those two did say that he preferred blue sponge and could tell.

I think those players are within the USATT 1900 to 2200 level so not bad. I think the video suggests that for mere mortals, most people cannot tell the difference.

So to be transparent, the question about the national version being less tacky comes from TT11's answer to my question. I emailed them a few months back on why the new H3 neo is less tacky than the old one. They did ask DHS and got the standard answe, "there is no such change in manufacturing." Then TT11 did tell me that some customers have complained that the national version might not be as tacky as they would like, and I imagine those customers asked for refund.

However, we also have to know that the national version that TT11 or any reputable shops sell are NOT the version that Ma Long and Fan Zhendong are using. Let us not delude ourselves.

One clubmate I spoke to EJ a lot and is very experienced. He said he refused to use DHS products because the quality control is so bad and for a product that has been around for twenty years, it has gone through various changes. If so. DHS should have named each version a different rubber name. To him, not doing so is deceptive and he refuses to use DHS products.

He then talked about how Haifu came up with a rubber ten plus years ago. He and many players found it to be amazing, like H3 National used by Ma Long and Fan Zhendong amazing. But after a few months, once all the players found out, Haifu just discontinued the rubber without any explanation. He suspects that they accidentally released a rubber that is CNT level amazing and just cut it off. People called various stores in Europe, etc. No store carried it anymore. Again for that reason, he refuses to buy DHS or Haifu or any Chinese products anymore.

Going back to having Lin Yun-Ju doing the blind testing, if Tony can make that happen, that would be amazing. I think it is easy enough to find edge tape to cover the sponge. In Lin Yun-Ju we trust.

However, for mere mortal like me, even if Lin can tell te difference, I will still stick with commerical version because I don't think it is worth the price difference for me, like TB said.

If indeed the commercial sponge can vary by 4 degree of hardness, then Fan Zhendong will be driven crazy having to reglue every hour to find the right hardness for him.

So all in all, I am in the middle in this debate. I actually learn quite a bit reading both sides of the argument. I read fast so it does not bother me to extract the info I need.

 

[hclnnkhg]

But on a more serious tone, all the back and forth here actually led me to learn something I don't know about DHS such as the difference between #20 and #22 sponge. I guess #20 sponge is before plastic ball, and it is the orange sponge and #22 is DHS' response to the plastic ball and is the blue sponge?

But why would DHs produce orange sponge provincial version and orange sponge national version?

I assume it is just to make money?

I think it make sense to produce just commerical orange sponge, provincial blue sponge and national blue sponge and call it a day.

红双喜蓝海绵乒乓球套胶的由来：“蓝海绵”的秘密 - 动库商城

但凡常年关注国手比赛的球迷，相信都会无意间留意到国手们正手那骚气的一抹蓝。不知从何时开始，红双喜的蓝海绵成为了国手们的一个秘密武器，并且似乎只有顶尖级国手才有“资格”享用，

www.dku51.com

Not sure if this article is 100% accurate, but here's a summary:

- 22# blue sponge exists back in 38mm era. Ma Lin and Kong Linghui used 22# blue sponge with Globe 999
- 20# orange sponge was developed for 40mm era. They were used in Hurricane 2 and Hurricane 3.
- Wang Liqin used Hurricane 2 but he preferred blue sponge. Ma Lin and Wang Hao also used blue sponge with Skyline 2 and 3. Since then, virtually all men players in CNT used blue sponge on FH.
- On the other hand, the women players in CNT kept using orange sponge until Rio 2016 (Ding Ning and Li Xiaoxia).
- In 40+ era, speed and spin were further reduced, the women players in CNT started switching to blue sponge for more power. Now everyone in CNT use blue sponge on FH.

 

[Attitude]

are you talking about R9 or H3?
R9 only have national version

H3 commercial is #20
Pros who use H3, don't use #20 on FH, 99% of them use #22

you get organic and non organic #22 H3
Pros can spec how much tack they want, national (commercial) cannot.

but when you say, out of the box, then it is because of the #22 sponge, not because of the topsheet tack.
without boosting, the #22 is way more alive.
When boosting, the #22 can hold the ball into the sponge for way longer than #20
The #22 is just way better, but only downfall is its durabilty, it last about half the time as #20

When talking specs, for example, the kid's Ma Long rubber, after 3 months, can still tack/hold the ball longer than my new rubber. It was a different spec to start with, quality wise also way better
So, here we talking about commercial vs national, then there is national commercial version vs national pro player spec version.

For any one who want to hear reviews from a pro, Australian Hu Heming, I think few years ago posted videos of his "pro" Tenergy and then when he changed contracts to DHS, he also did a lot of comparison.
He even went as far as showed how Butterfly package its Pro tenergy rubbers (doesn't come in commercial packaging).
Some times, correct info is important, hence i'm sharing a lead.

That would explain how and why prott.vip have different pricing for its "pro versions" and the other ones. But either way interesting that there actually is a market for that, although i doubt that in this case it would do anything for likes of us.

Just a small note: i doubt the 99%, because every defense player uses OS. And i saw some lower ranked pros who use it. And dont forget Ljk who switched for a year or smth^^. So I would say it is more like 90-95%, but that doesnt make your point invalid anyway. Just a little thought about you number

 

[TensorBackhand]

I mean, I enjoy this thread. Hey I am not the subject being grilled here so I can sit back and relax.

But on a more serious tone, all the back and forth here actually led me to learn something I don't know about DHS such as the difference between #20 and #22 sponge. I guess #20 sponge is before plastic ball, and it is the orange sponge and #22 is DHS' response to the plastic ball and is the blue sponge?

But why would DHs produce orange sponge provincial version and orange sponge national version?

I assume it is just to make money?

I think it make sense to produce just commerical orange sponge, provincial blue sponge and national blue sponge and call it a day.

As for the TT11 comparison video that TB referred to, I like the video. I agree. I think at least two out of the four testers use hurricane and one of those two did say that he preferred blue sponge and could tell.

I think those players are within the USATT 1900 to 2200 level so not bad. I think the video suggests that for mere mortals, most people cannot tell the difference.

So to be transparent, the question about the national version being less tacky comes from TT11's answer to my question. I emailed them a few months back on why the new H3 neo is less tacky than the old one. They did ask DHS and got the standard answe, "there is no such change in manufacturing." Then TT11 did tell me that some customers have complained that the national version might not be as tacky as they would like, and I imagine those customers asked for refund.

However, we also have to know that the national version that TT11 or any reputable shops sell are NOT the version that Ma Long and Fan Zhendong are using. Let us not delude ourselves.

One clubmate I spoke to EJ a lot and is very experienced. He said he refused to use DHS products because the quality control is so bad and for a product that has been around for twenty years, it has gone through various changes. If so. DHS should have named each version a different rubber name. To him, not doing so is deceptive and he refuses to use DHS products.

He then talked about how Haifu came up with a rubber ten plus years ago. He and many players found it to be amazing, like H3 National used by Ma Long and Fan Zhendong amazing. But after a few months, once all the players found out, Haifu just discontinued the rubber without any explanation. He suspects that they accidentally released a rubber that is CNT level amazing and just cut it off. People called various stores in Europe, etc. No store carried it anymore. Again for that reason, he refuses to buy DHS or Haifu or any Chinese products anymore.

Going back to having Lin Yun-Ju doing the blind testing, if Tony can make that happen, that would be amazing. I think it is easy enough to find edge tape to cover the sponge. In Lin Yun-Ju we trust.

However, for mere mortal like me, even if Lin can tell te difference, I will still stick with commerical version because I don't think it is worth the price difference for me, like TB said.

If indeed the commercial sponge can vary by 4 degree of hardness, then Fan Zhendong will be driven crazy having to reglue every hour to find the right hardness for him.

So all in all, I am in the middle in this debate. I actually learn quite a bit reading both sides of the argument. I read fast so it does not bother me to extract the info I need.

It's hard to just tell from hitting, but some of those TT11 guys seem quite a bit better than 1900-2200.

I just bought 2 Haifu rubbers and will give my opinion on those soon.

 

[TensorBackhand]

What's so funny? seriously...

The 2nd reviewer they said was Daniel, a former Hungarian National Team player, and multi-time national champion of Hungary. You really think you could beat him?

 

[hclnnkhg]

It's hard to just tell from hitting, but some of those TT11 guys seem quite a bit better than 1900-2200.

I just bought 2 Haifu rubbers and will give my opinion on those soon.

What's so funny? seriously...

The 2nd reviewer they said was Daniel, a former Hungarian National Team player, and multi-time national champion of Hungary. You really think you could beat him?

I will dissect the frog, from my point of view. @Attitude may find something else funny.

1. You first stated that it is difficult to judge a player's level just from watching them hitting (I agree with this). Then you just went ahead and judge their levels just from watching them hitting (maybe you have played with them, I don't know). @JJ Ng 's estimate, 1900 to 2200 is already a conservative guess as it includes 3 to 4 levels apart (100 points roughly translate to 80-20 win rate split, based on USTA rules), and yet you manage to disagree with him. I personally find it funny because of the self-contradiction.

2. You previously stated that you are not excited about Rxton 9 because it sounds like other rubbers. But then you bought 2 Haifu rubbers, which is rumoured to be some CNT level rubbers i.e. equivalents/clones of H3 National. Which is what Rxton 9 is supposed to be. I again find it funny because of the self-contradiction. Although these may not be contradictory if you can explain a bit more about why rubbers are interesting or not to you.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I will dissect the frog, from my point of view. @Attitude may find something else funny.

1. You first stated that it is difficult to judge a player's level just from watching them hitting (I agree with this). Then you just went ahead and judge their levels just from watching them hitting (maybe you have played with them, I don't know). @JJ Ng 's estimate, 1900 to 2200 is already a conservative guess as it includes 3 to 4 levels apart (100 points roughly translate to 80-20 win rate split, based on USTA rules), and yet you manage to disagree with him. I personally find it funny because of the self-contradiction.

2. You previously stated that you are not excited about Rxton 9 because it sounds like other rubbers. But then you bought 2 Haifu rubbers, which is rumoured to be some CNT level rubbers i.e. equivalents/clones of H3 National. Which is what Rxton 9 is supposed to be. I again find it funny because of the self-contradiction. Although these may not be contradictory if you can explain a bit more about why rubbers are interesting or not to you.

1. I don't disagree with JJ, I just think he might not have gone high enough. Daniel is a national champion of a European country. Sergei has a wicked good backhand. The 2 young guys are probably way better now than they were in the video. But I'm not dogmatic about this, who knows how good they really are. My favorite book is Annie Duke's "thinking in bets". As a betting man, I would take any 4 of those players over any of the 2000-2100 TTD forum members.

2. I'm not excited about Rxton 9 because it is both similar to H3N and because it is over $30, so not exactly cheap. I got Haifu shark, which is non-tacky 37d rubber. So it is not similar to H3. I'm curious about this rubber design. I got Haifu whale, which might be similar to H3, but it was only $9 plus $1 coupon. So $8 vs $30. $8 gets me excited, $30 does not. simple

 

[hclnnkhg]

1. I don't disagree with JJ, I just think he might not have gone high enough. Daniel is a national champion of a European country. Sergei has a wicked good backhand. The 2 young guys are probably way better now than they were in the video. But I'm not dogmatic about this, who knows how good they really are. My favorite book is Annie Duke's "thinking in bets". As a betting man, I would take any 4 of those players over any of the 2000-2100 TTD forum members.

2. I'm not excited about Rxton 9 because it is both similar to H3N and because it is over $30, so not exactly cheap. I got Haifu shark, which is non-tacky 37d rubber. So it is not similar to H3. I'm curious about this rubber design. I got Haifu whale, which might be similar to H3, but it was only $9 plus $1 coupon. So $8 vs $30. $8 gets me excited, $30 does not. simple

I am still baffled why Haifu stop making ITTF approved rubbers. Maybe the seamoon oil is selling too well and they lost all kinds of ambition.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I am still baffled why Haifu stop making ITTF approved rubbers. Maybe the seamoon oil is selling too well and they lost all kinds of ambition.

I think ITTF banned them because they used booster in their commercial rubbers.

 

[hclnnkhg]

I think ITTF banned them because they used booster in their commercial rubbers.

isn't that the same as DHS Neo rubbers and other factory boosting?

 

[TensorBackhand]

isn't that the same as DHS Neo rubbers and other factory boosting?

i dont know the real answer to your question.

But in my imagination, maybe DHS and other companies like tibhar use some chemical process during the formation of the rubber to "boost" it.

Whereas Haifu litearlly applies their own seamoon to the rubber after the sponge is made

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That would explain how and why prott.vip have different pricing for its "pro versions" and the other ones. But either way interesting that there actually is a market for that, although i doubt that in this case it would do anything for likes of us.

Just a small note: i doubt the 99%, because every defense player uses OS. And i saw some lower ranked pros who use it. And dont forget Ljk who switched for a year or smth^^. So I would say it is more like 90-95%, but that doesnt make your point invalid anyway. Just a little thought about you number

haha, yeah,
and no matter what, if we used your example - take those away and replace with commercial
you would see a huge spin and speed reduction in the shot

It is like taking away T05 Hard from Lin and giving him T05Fx
when he was using T05 back then, his was customized to hard sponge already