Felix Lebrun lost 14 direct points on serve when faced Wang Chuqin

[Tony's Table Tennis]

- lastly i do think the angle of the video review sometimes was really weird in the vegas smash. The challenge darko did was legit, but the camera angle was somehow on the far right side, so his head barely blocked it. And according to the footage it was legit. However, from where darko was standing I would say he didnt see shit.

agree

rules is clean site from net to net
TTR review only has one net... so who ever enforces rules... i am speechless

 

[Zezima]

Most spins on the video were side/under. With the follow-up motion after the rubber contacted the ball, it's difficult to tell the real spin in a split second. The post-contact deceptive motion makes side/under look like side/upper. It is the highly skilled act developed by players with great serves. WCQ's serve is probably one of the best among active pros.
Legal serve or not, the serve itself is very hard to read even in a clear view. So give the man a little credit for developing such effective serves.
WCQ's deadly third ball attack is another reason his opponents find it hard to receive his serves. You have to make quick decision and be aggressive either using flip or fast push which tend to be high risk shots.

Yeah but from felix racket angle it should go over the net but it still goes into the net why?
When I put heavy side backspin on the ball and my opponent receives like that rhe ball always goes short over the net back. Just by lifting slightl,

 

[PoppaChubby]

Seriously guys...

I'm coming from an era where the motto was "either way, deal with it", that's what Felix did, and he did well: he's done his best match ever vs WCQ ! 14 receives down yeah, his best match with 14 same serves he couldn't handle, but still he managed to win 1 point more overall, 66-67.

Me thinks next times he'll just have to push correctly only 2 over those 14 serves to win the match.

Of course WCQ cheats, of course LSD cheats, this is now the only thing they can do to win over Felix, Tomo and Hugo, it's good news. When it was Ma Long and Fan Zhendong, no discussion: they were the best no matter how or what. No need to cheat.

Now they desperatly need that, and even: their men's double is the weakest ever.

Nah it's good news if it's the only thing they do more than the others, it won't last whatsoever, see LSD he's now out way sooner than last year in every tournaments he did., because everyone now reads his serves well, even Poret. Everyone will start to read WCQ's serves well at one point, and Felix being way younger, he's got more time, he knows it.

 

[Attitude]

imo, it should be the umpires job to enforce the rule
and players can use technology for close calls.

hidden serves been around for a long time.
so I agree with you, either fix it, or do something about it.
TTR is only few matches in a whole tournament too, so TTR is still really far from the solutions.
Umpires need to have more resources, maybe even more umpires involved, since we talking Pro sport here, not some amateur match

Maybe one more umpire behind the receiver.
Because lets be real the amount of wrong calls is not okay. In qualifiers and aside from the main table, there were even more questionable calls from the umpires on top. Seeing that, i dont even wanna know how many wrong calls they are making.

 

[igorponger]

I do seek to see a slowmo replay of WCQ service from the apex viewpoint. It looks of dubious legality as yet.

 

[Attitude]

I just rewatched Darko Jorgic vs Wcq.

Sorry but if Jorgics serves are okay, you cant complain about wcq serves at all. They are clear to see most of the times and definitly easier to see than Jorgics in generall (speaking of his pendulum serves).

Funny enough he got faulted for his bh serve 🤣
Maybe, just maybe his serves are better and overall harder to read because of the way he spins the ball and not because he hides the serve so tremendously

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I just rewatched Darko Jorgic vs Wcq.

Sorry but if Jorgics serves are okay, you cant complain about wcq serves at all. They are clear to see most of the times and definitly easier to see than Jorgics in generall (speaking of his pendulum serves).

Funny enough he got faulted for his bh serve 🤣
Maybe, just maybe his serves are better and overall harder to read because of the way he spins the ball and not because he hides the serve so tremendously

this angle is impossible to tell, but here is a hidden serve, with the head blocking the toss.
it appears visible during contact.
WCQ is very good, and a "role model" for us to practice hiding the toss with the head.

his head shouldn't be any where near the racket for it to be "clean clean". So I have to disagree with you that you can't complain about wcq serve at all.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

here is more

then the review, on contact, Darko's angle will get blocked

this one you can clearly see the toss lands with a very clearly timing of the head coming into the scene to block the sight of the ball just before contact,


tough video angles to tell, but so many are hidden during the toss. To me, it is the usual blocking of the ball I have seen for a long while.

 

[Grumms]

This one against Felix shows how bad the camera is placed to judge the legality of the serve :

There's no way Felix sees the ball.

 

[igorponger]

INFORMAL WARNING. PREVENTION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN CURE.

There is no obliging requirement for umpire to scare the server with a penalty point.

Informal warning in mild voice is how a good discipline should be settled in play.

Timid umpire -- bad umpire. Make your voice audible 🤓
___________________
Yours respectfully
attested referee in charge of racket control

 

[NextLevel]

wasn't there a recent match where TTR was in full play and WCQ didn't win much points directly from serves.
he also served a lot more cleanly.

IMO, WCQ is a damn good player that can win points during rallies.
but he does make use of hidden serves to win a lot of easy points, so this is why for me, he will never be goat material and looking at those comparisons to Ma Long etc, he has neither the trait to character to fill that big shoes - however, he is a lone warrior, and the last hope for China. He had to use all the ugly to win. Or else.....

Ma Long served a lot of hidden serves too, it is not about character, it is just what the sport has become.

 

[NextLevel]

this angle is impossible to tell, but here is a hidden serve, with the head blocking the toss.
it appears visible during contact.
WCQ is very good, and a "role model" for us to practice hiding the toss with the head.

his head shouldn't be any where near the racket for it to be "clean clean". So I have to disagree with you that you can't complain about wcq serve at all.

View attachment 36998

You missed his point, which is that Jorgic is also hiding his serves.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

it is just what the sport has become.

if you have been following what I am saying, I have been saying exactly that.
can't beat it, you join it.
ITTF needs to enforce fixes, not using year 1900 methods

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

How many of those serves were actually illegal? Impossible to say for sure, but I'd guess 3 at most.

i just watched the first 4, and all 4 are hidden.

If you don't like it, just push the umpires to be stricter.

umpires are closed to useless in these situations

Eventually at big tournaments it shouldn't be too hard to make real time TTR available for every serve.

true

 

[suds79]

All I know is that it makes me feel better to know even pros sometimes run into a player who has a serve that gives them fits.

Easier pill to swallow for us mere hobbyist when we run into that.

 

[lightspin]

The service rules need to be completely rethought and rewritten. For example the ball has to be visible to the receiver from the start of the toss until the contact of the ball with the racket. I always ask "What if the receiver turns his back to the table to stands to the extreme side of the table? Is that a fault on the server," People usually laugh at these examples but according to the rules, the server should be faulted.

When I was first starting out in table tennis, a fairly well known high level player told me if you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough. That in my opinion is sad.

 

[NextLevel]

The service rules need to be completely rethought and rewritten. For example the ball has to be visible to the receiver from the start of the toss until the contact of the ball with the racket. I always ask "What if the receiver turns his back to the table to stands to the extreme side of the table? Is that a fault on the server," People usually laugh at these examples but according to the rules, the server should be faulted.

When I was first starting out in table tennis, a fairly well known high level player told me if you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough. That in my opinion is sad.

Larry Hodges has always argued that the correct criteria is visible to both netposts. Basically the serve should be in front of you. Unfortunately, most serves would be illegal as performed currently by the pros so they just prefer to keep their illegality rather than fix it. People forget, TTR was already available in 2018 or 2019 Grand Finals, I keep forgetting which one, but it faulted Ma Long often enough to make them stop using it.

 

[suds79]

When I was first starting out in table tennis, a fairly well known high level player told me if you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough. That in my opinion is sad.

Sad but true. If you want to have a chance to win to at least stay even, you kinda have to. it's sad but it is what it is.

TableTennis11 talked about this in one video they put out some time back.

Now the whole video is interesting but at this point in the video one at 21:24 one of them talks about how he doesn't like it but he has to coach his students to at least have a hidden serve they can pull out should their opponent be doing it to them.

I don't like this either but every once in a while (not too often) I'll come across someone who has a blantly illegal serve. I'd say 90+% of the time it's an old timer from a generation where a next to nothing toss was in vogue and it helps get them way more spin. Well if they get to serve illegally and there isn't an umpire or anybody who can or will do anything about it, then I get to also and here comes a ton of hidden serves. Both players need to follow the rules. It's not fair if one does and the other doesn't. The one who does follow the rules is then at a disadvantage.

Anyways in this video I liked the part they talked about where the toss of the ball at all times should be visible by both net posts. Basically like a triangle. That would take out the subjective part of it where we ask "can the returner see it? Can't tell." This would make it much more black & white on the calls.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Larry Hodges has always argued that the correct criteria is visible to both netposts. Basically the serve should be in front of you. Unfortunately, most serves would be illegal as performed currently by the pros so they just prefer to keep their illegality rather than fix it. People forget, TTR was already available in 2018 or 201o Grand Finals, I keep forgetting which one, but it faulted Ma Long often enough to make them stop using it.

So what ? did he stop being dominant by changing his serves? nah
Was FZD a cheater ? nah, was he way more dominant than WCQ is now ? heck yeah !!!

That's all I'm saying, Of course WCQ and LSD cheat ON PURPOSE, and that's what is completely different from athletes who take bad routines since an early age, what I'm saying is that they are not THAT dominant even with that.

The Ma Long + FZD retirement has completely reversed the cards, now 3 non chinese players at least have their chances to win at ANY GIVEN TIME against them. Plus 2 more if Lin Yun-Ju + Truls manage to be more consistent.

 

[Dr Evil]

i just watched the first 4, and all 4 are hidden.

TTR has shown serves to be legal which I would have bet were illegal from the video, even in slow motion. You really can't tell for sure from the usual camera angles. Do you really think Felix would have missed 14 illegal serves without asking for a single review? I think he missed most of them because they were great (barely legal) serves, and they were backed up by WCQ's great third ball attack.

umpires are closed to useless in these situations

Most are at most tournaments, but that's a policy decision. You could tell the players that serves have to be clearly legal, and tell the umpires to call a let for any serve they even suspect may be illegal. I think something like this has been tried at a few tournaments, and the players complain a lot. But it would reduce the number of illegal serves.