Felix Lebrun lost 14 direct points on serve when faced Wang Chuqin

[Tony's Table Tennis]

TTR has shown serves to be legal which I would have bet were illegal from the video, even in slow motion. You really can't tell for sure from the usual camera angles.

The TTR angle is a problem indeed, especially the player's angle, the player is blocking that camera lol. They should just put cameras on the netpost - since the rules made use of the netpost.

Do you really think Felix would have missed 14 illegal serves without asking for a single review? I think he missed most of them because they were great (barely legal) serves, and they were backed up by WCQ's great third ball attack.

Using of TTR and the practice of calling for TTR is still very mixed minded.
I prefer the umpires make use of technology to call faults, than oppose to making it the players responsibility.
the player should be focusing on the receive, not focusing on calling for TTR imo.

WCQ advantage is in his serves no doubt. Whether it is clean or not, there is always a doubt of illegal serves due to constant hiding of the ball. How much of value it added,,,, well - enough for chinese fans do call him a cheater and he doesn't care and continues.

If it doesn't add value, WCQ can easily serve more cleanly and not be in the hidden serve band wagon.

however, this is more a ITTF problem than WCQ problem and everyone is copying, especially from juniors....

you set traffic rules and if you don't enforce (or have no clue on how to enforce it), then you can't complain when everyone is speeding and driving like a lunatic.
the hidden serve problem is way worse today than 5 years ago, and it will only get worse.

Most are at most tournaments, but that's a policy decision. You could tell the players that serves have to be clearly legal, and tell the umpires to call a let for any serve they even suspect may be illegal. I think something like this has been tried at a few tournaments, and the players complain a lot. But it would reduce the number of illegal serves.

policy decision - so, we need to ask the umpire to follow the rule books?
i'm a player/coach, i'm on the players/coaches side.

We do our bit, but umpires/match referee needs to do theirs.
We are trained to think of the worse and wish for the best on the professionalism of umpires. We are trained to focus on what areas we can control.
sadly, we have no control of the umpires - and the quality of them does not match the quality of the players in these higher quality tournaments.

Sadly, these umpires are volunteers at most. We need pro umpires, and maybe get bonuses for every correct call they make.

If WTT want to make Smash they highest quality event - then, they should have pros on every part. Not just the players.

 

[NextLevel]

So what ? did he stop being dominant by changing his serves? nah
Was FZD a cheater ? nah, was he way more dominant than WCQ is now ? heck yeah !!!

That's all I'm saying, Of course WCQ and LSD cheat ON PURPOSE, and that's what is completely different from athletes who take bad routines since an early age, what I'm saying is that they are not THAT dominant even with that.

The Ma Long + FZD retirement has completely reversed the cards, now 3 non chinese players at least have their chances to win at ANY GIVEN TIME against them. Plus 2 more if Lin Yun-Ju + Truls manage to be more consistent.

No, Ma Long didn't change his serves, they stopped using the TTR system. Even now, one weakness of the TTR system is that the Chinese players have used it and probably know its limitations while no one else likely has practiced with it. Because I really cannot believe the confidence with which WCQ is serving.

 

[zeio]

The TTR by RigourTech had 11 auxiliary cameras to assist in its decision. The specific angle shown on screen is "best of the best" selection (caught red-handed).

The problem with TTR by SpinSight (an ESN company) is the inconsistent standard/interpretation of what's considered illegal. WCQ's serve was not considered hidden but Harimoto's serve was when both instances showed that the ball was partly hidden.

裁判，咋回事？？ (What's going on, ump?)
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/9865303777

WTGF 2019
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019-ittf-world-tour-grand-finals.22442/post-299064
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019-ittf-world-tour-grand-finals.22442/post-299070
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/2019-ittf-world-tour-grand-finals.22442/post-299293

“鹰眼”盯上乒乓球，已在巡回赛总决赛小试牛刀
https://ycpai.ycwb.com/ycppad/content/2019-12/16/content_588872.html

11个机位辅助裁判判罚

本次总决赛，马龙和队友梁靖崑经历了荡气回肠的七局大战后，才涉险晋级。比赛第五局和第六局，马龙两次在比分胶着时刻挑战发球判罚，但“鹰眼”显示结果均为失败——视频显示，马龙发球时头部有遮挡。但有些现场观众对这一判罚“并不买账”，看台上有几个人喊出了“不遮挡”的声音。社交媒体上也有一些争议，有人认为，从现场大屏幕回放的视频来看，马龙的头部确实存在遮挡，但视频拍摄的机位和角度是否科学？是否与接发球一方运动员的角度一致？视频看到遮挡了，接发球的运动员的视线就一定被遮挡了吗？

“我们是以球员视角给出画面的，”对于记者的这个提问，刘宪章给出了肯定的答案，“视频画面遮挡了，那就一定是遮挡了，不会有问题。”对马龙的这一判罚，记者也咨询了乒乓球蓝牌裁判员（最高级国际裁判）裴伟民，他表示，从现场视频给出的画面看，判罚没有问题，马龙确实头部遮挡了。

“现场播放的画面是优中选优的，”刘宪章告诉记者，事实上，比赛场上共设置了11个机位辅助裁判员作出判罚，相机的摆放均参照国际乒联的标准，11个角度中，每一个角度都会被调出来给裁判员观看，但只能从中选择出最合适的一个放在大屏幕上展现。刘宪章表示，审的过程其实是很复杂的，不是观众看到的那么简单。

虽然大屏幕上没有显示出来，但其实，乒乓球“鹰眼”类似于足球的VAR，也有裁判在后台监控，并和主裁判实时用耳机沟通，这一角色被称为“鹰眼”裁判。记者了解到，“鹰眼”裁判由国际乒联选派，实际上就是由我们平时看到的在场上执裁的主裁判或者副裁判兼任的。也就是说，在应用了“鹰眼”系统后，每场乒乓球比赛事实上有三名裁判员现场执裁，这对于比赛的公平公正性无疑是有好处的。但从另一方面讲，裁判的人员成本在增加，未来是否会设置专职的“鹰眼”裁判，还有待于通过比赛实践进一步探索。

这样一来，整个“鹰眼”系统的运作流程就呼之欲出了：在运动员提出挑战之后，主裁判通过耳机告知“鹰眼”裁判要挑战的内容，“鹰眼”裁判根据挑战内容让鹰眼操作员制作相应的画面，并根据画面内容作出判罚，“鹰眼”裁判告知主裁判判罚结果的同时，将判罚结果展示给运动员和现场观众。

(11 cameras assist referees in making decisions

In this final, Ma Long and his teammate Liang Jingkun advanced after a thrilling seven-game battle. In the fifth and sixth games of the match, Ma Long challenged the serve penalty twice when the score was tied, but the "Hawkeye" showed that the results were both failures - the video showed that Ma Long's head was blocked when he served. But some spectators at the scene "did not buy it" for this penalty, and several people in the stands shouted "no blockage". There were also some controversies on social media. Some people believed that from the video replayed on the big screen at the scene, Ma Long's head was indeed blocked, but were the camera positions and angles of the video scientific? Was it consistent with the angle of the receiving player? If the video showed that it was blocked, would the receiving player's vision be blocked?

"We give the picture from the player's perspective," Liu Xianzhang gave a positive answer to the reporter's question, "If the video screen is blocked, then it must be blocked, there will be no problem." Regarding Ma Long's penalty, the reporter also consulted Pei Weimin, a blue card referee (the highest international referee) in table tennis. He said that from the pictures given by the live video, there was no problem with the penalty, and Ma Long's head was indeed blocked.

"The live broadcast picture is the best of the best," Liu Xianzhang told reporters. In fact, there are 11 camera positions set up on the field to assist the referee in making penalties. The placement of the cameras is based on the standards of the International Table Tennis Federation. Among the 11 angles, each angle will be adjusted for the referee to watch, but only the most suitable one can be selected from them to be displayed on the big screen. Liu Xianzhang said that the review process is actually very complicated, not as simple as what the audience sees.

Although it is not displayed on the big screen, in fact, table tennis "Hawkeye" is similar to VAR in football. There are also referees monitoring in the background and communicating with the referee in real time using headphones. This role is called the "Hawkeye" referee. The reporter learned that the "Hawkeye" referees are selected by the International Table Tennis Federation, and are actually the chief referees or deputy referees we usually see on the field. In other words, after the application of the "Hawkeye" system, there are actually three referees on the spot for each table tennis match, which is undoubtedly good for the fairness and justice of the game. But on the other hand, the personnel cost of referees is increasing. Whether there will be full-time "Hawkeye" referees in the future remains to be further explored through competition practice.

In this way, the operation process of the entire "Hawkeye" system is ready to emerge: after the athlete raises a challenge, the chief referee tells the "Hawkeye" referee the content of the challenge through the headset, and the "Hawkeye" referee asks the Hawkeye operator to make the corresponding picture according to the content of the challenge, and makes a penalty according to the content of the picture. While the "Hawkeye" referee informs the chief referee of the penalty result, he will show the penalty result to the athlete and the audience on the scene.)

 

[NextLevel]

TTR has shown serves to be legal which I would have bet were illegal from the video, even in slow motion. You really can't tell for sure from the usual camera angles. Do you really think Felix would have missed 14 illegal serves without asking for a single review? I think he missed most of them because they were great (barely legal) serves, and they were backed up by WCQ's great third ball attack.

Most are at most tournaments, but that's a policy decision. You could tell the players that serves have to be clearly legal, and tell the umpires to call a let for any serve they even suspect may be illegal. I think something like this has been tried at a few tournaments, and the players complain a lot. But it would reduce the number of illegal serves.

You can be sure the CNT have worked extensively with a similar system and have had their serves validated in advance. They don't leave such things to chance. I wish the system was more plainly making dubious serves faults. Rewarding marginal serves is not supposed to be the point of this. I am not against some deception, or handle hiding but the difference between the head being close to the ball and the head shielding the ball is unfair to allow if the system is not being used on every single serve.

 

[Dr Evil]

Even major league baseball umpires, with a perfect point of view and vast amounts of professional experience, miss more than 10% of ball and strike calls. Volunteer table tennis umpires trying to distinguish borderline legal and illegal serves from side angles is guaranteed to be more or less arbitrary. Without good TTR -- impractical for most tournaments for the near future -- there's no good solution short of changing the serving rules. But there are less bad solutions and I think we're headed in the right direction with stricter umpiring and player challenges.

 

[Attitude]

this angle is impossible to tell, but here is a hidden serve, with the head blocking the toss.
it appears visible during contact.
WCQ is very good, and a "role model" for us to practice hiding the toss with the head.

his head shouldn't be any where near the racket for it to be "clean clean". So I have to disagree with you that you can't complain about wcq serve at all.

View attachment 36998

You didnt quite get my point. In comparison you cant complain. As we discussed in a different thread, there arent many players who make 100% ideal, legally serves.

Here i compared especially one that always complains and uses ttr for the opponent serves if he doesnt like it.
Now check his pendulum serves. For his bh serve he already got faulted here (first ttr fail).
You wont find a legal serve from Darko here. He hides the ball with his whole body, whily wcq at least tries to make it barely legal 😅
My complain is that way too many hate about wcq serves while there are way worse serves that are bad but way more illegal.

For better angle you need to check the live stream with the better replay angles. Here it is way harder to see as you correctly pointed out.

 

[Attitude]

One more thing that has to be considered here (especially to better catch the topic) is that this tournament was garbage. I mean wtf is wrong with the training tent???? Why do they train in different halls/tents in the first place and even on different tables...
What a shitshow.

What was clearly to see in that tournament was that many player struggled with the different spin capabilties of the table and the different conditions.
For example you could check how many simple bh serves Harimoto failed to return from Aruna.
Or how many players were unable to block propperly spinny openers.
Anyone saw how ljk played? That is not Top 10 of the world level - lol.

Just another aspect we might have to consider here

 

[d3nium]

Backhand only serves would solve this issue over night and make the game better to watch.

 

[NextLevel]

Backhand only serves would solve this issue over night and make the game better to watch.

I agree on the solving. But whether pros would agree or accept it not sure.

 

[Angerer]

here is more

View attachment 36999



then the review, on contact, Darko's angle will get blocked

View attachment 37000


View attachment 37001

View attachment 37002
this one you can clearly see the toss lands with a very clearly timing of the head coming into the scene to block the sight of the ball just before contact,


tough video angles to tell, but so many are hidden during the toss. To me, it is the usual blocking of the ball I have seen for a long while.

So you deliberately pause during the moment of the toss and ignore the moment when the ball touches the racket? That's a bit dodgy, mister

 

[Attitude]

I agree on the solving. But whether pros would agree or accept it not sure.

I disagree on both. First all most serves faulted this tournament were bh serves...
Second you would discard of a huge foundation of tactics which would hurt the game.
Third you would put a spin variation out of the servegame unless you revive as ding ning.

So no, it solves nothing and makes the game worse to watch because you reduce variety.

 

[NextLevel]

I disagree on both. First all most serves faulted this tournament were bh serves...
Second you would discard of a huge foundation of tactics which would hurt the game.
Third you would put a spin variation out of the servegame unless you revive as ding ning.

So no, it solves nothing and makes the game worse to watch because you reduce variety.

Nah, most serves faulted were not backhand serves. Where did you get that from? Backhand serves can have toss issues and some leave hands in the way. But definitely most backhand serves with decent toss are easily legal.

I agree on the variety. Serving is a fun and creative part of the game and I dont think Kong Linghui approach is for everyone. But I know this solution has been proposed before. It is not new.

 

[Attitude]

Nah, most serves faulted were not backhand serves. Where did you get that from? Backhand serves can have toss issues and some leave hands in the way. But definitely most backhand serves with decent toss are easily legal.

I agree on the variety. Serving is a fun and creative part of the game and I dont think Kong Linghui approach is for everyone. But I know this solution has been proposed before. It is not new.

I would have to rewatch everything to give you a list. But Aruna (although he got faulted for both serves) and Jorgic were 2 you got lets and faults for their bh serves.
Harimoto got a let call if i recall correctly.

That actually should be enough already if put into perspective e.g. the number of faults to serves that were done (bh serve or anything else).

 

[NextLevel]

I would have to rewatch everything to give you a list. But Aruna (although he got faulted for both serves) and Jorgic were 2 you got lets and faults for their bh serves.
Harimoto got a let call if i recall correctly.

That actually should be enough already if put into perspective e.g. the number of faults to serves that were done (bh serve or anything else).

Aruna got faulted for his forehand serves. It was so bad he served exclusively backhsnd against Harimoto. He beat Zhou Qihao mostly serving backhand so it wasn't like his forehand serves were required. But Quadri has always had major toss issues on his forehand serves, so I wasn't surprised by the faults and was even expecting the fault calls.

Jorgic also got faulted more for his forehand serve with its backward toss. Yes his tosses also had issues on backhand serves which occasionally got faults. But his forehand serves had more issues.

But sure I will wait for your analysis. I dont think your statement is accurate.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So you deliberately pause during the moment of the toss and ignore the moment when the ball touches the racket? That's a bit dodgy, mister

If you had understand the rule, I pause when the ball is falling down and before contact, as that is when the head is coming in to block the view. That is the fine moment when it obstructs the ball and creates uncertainty - this is perfect textbook material to know when to hide the ball and trick the umpire.

If you understand the rules, the entire flight or toss of the ball can not be blocked, it isnt only the striking of the ball (which sounds like you don't understand the rule and think it is only during contact that counts as blocking)

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You didnt quite get my point. In comparison you cant complain. As we discussed in a different thread, there arent many players who make 100% ideal, legally serves.

Here i compared especially one that always complains and uses ttr for the opponent serves if he doesnt like it.
Now check his pendulum serves. For his bh serve he already got faulted here (first ttr fail).
You wont find a legal serve from Darko here. He hides the ball with his whole body, whily wcq at least tries to make it barely legal 😅
My complain is that way too many hate about wcq serves while there are way worse serves that are bad but way more illegal.

For better angle you need to check the live stream with the better replay angles. Here it is way harder to see as you correctly pointed out.

And my argument is ITTF is letting this happen, even with TTR.
And because when wr no1 can do it every time and get away with it, then everyone else can too.
its getting uglier in the junior levels.

 

[Angerer]

If you had understand the rule, I pause when the ball is falling down and before contact, as that is when the head is coming in to block the view. That is the fine moment when it obstructs the ball and creates uncertainty - this is perfect textbook material to know when to hide the ball and trick the umpire.

If you understand the rules, the entire flight or toss of the ball can not be blocked, it isnt only the striking of the ball (which sounds like you don't understand the rule and think it is only during contact that counts as blocking)

View attachment 37018

You can only refer to ITTF or WTT, who don't view blocking the ball view during the toss as a violation of rules. As of right now, the interpretation is that you only must keep the ball visible during the VERY moment of contact.

I was the original "hater" of WCQ's serves, thinking he was the second dirtiest server after LSD (hiding the contact, serving above the table, and extreme toss angle, especially during the tomahawk serve). However, I have to admit that WCQ made his serves much cleaner during the last year and especially during the past 3 months, since TTR was introduced at the World Cup.
I think WCQ didn't lose a single (!) point since TTR challenges were introduced, while LSD and many non-Chinese players keep losing points due to having much dirtier serves than WCQ.
I think it's amusing that Darko made a challenge regarding the "view block" considering he keeps the ball hidden even during the contact, LOL. And I believe Felix didn't challenge because he obstructs the view a lot himself, not to mention his toss angle is very curved.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

You can only refer to ITTF or WTT, who don't view blocking the ball view during the toss as a violation of rules. As of right now, the interpretation is that you only must keep the ball visible during the VERY moment of contact.

You clearly don't understand the rule.
Maybe English isn't your first language, but it is clearly stated, and I will post the exact wording again (from the ITTF handbook):

easy English
1) from toss, to contact (meaning the entire toss of the ball)
2) the ball
3) should not be hidden from the receiver

 

[Sriver1]

Wang Chuqin's are illegal. I can't understand why there are people that don't know the rules but dare to post about the matter.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Wang Chuqin's are illegal. I can't understand why there are people that don't know the rules but dare to post about the matter.

I have noticed there is a lot of misunderstanding on the rules, especially those thinking only "contact" is the part required to be visible.

I also think the bad TTR camera angle attributes to the wrong information being shared.
plus - all those illegal calls that are not called over the decade. Culprits is the umpires!

This is like the NBA now allowing traveling to the moon and back before you need to dribble the ball.
If you don't enforce rules, it builds habits and become a culture.