Greatest male player in his PRIME (PEAK)

[gregoire]

Thanks for posting that link to the this thread on Victor Barna Azlan.

Nobody in the modern era has surpassed Wang Liqin's 25 consecutive months as world #1. The ITTF world ranking history pages for Wang Liqin do not go back far enough to get the whole two years where he was ranked #1. I think it went from September of 2000 - September of 2002. But, he was also ranked #1 for all but 2 months between June of 2004 and February of 2007. If you just take the total # of months where he was ranked #1 and add them all together it is almost 5 years in the #1 slot. Hard to beat that in the modern era where, aside from his periods of dominance, the #1 rank seems to shift fairly regularly from one player to another.

Good research! I looked through the rankings,so overall: Liqin - 56 month on 1 spot (included 4 month besides this dite),Wanf Hao - 28 month.
Have you any info for pre-2001? For Waldner,Kong,Liu on 1 spot?

 

[harrybelafonte]

Waldner without doubt,just for the shots,he invented new serves,chop blocks,kills,floats,, etc etc a true genius, he beat samsonov in world final 3-0 as every other game in that event, 9 years after he won his first title,he also lost 21 -5 21-6 to vlad in the same team event, im sure vlad thought he had it in the bag, only to be taken apart by the sheer genius and majesty of j.o..themaster, we wont see anyone like him for a while..

 

[scylla24]

Yeah I definitely would have to go with Wang Liqin, though I guess I am biased since he is my favorite player of all time.

Waldner was great, but his play wasn't really a consistent level of domination as what Wang Liqin had. Waldner would perform well on the big stage, but in other instances he would be pretty mediocre. A lot of the acclaim Waldner receives is also do to the fact that most of the fans we deal with online are from western countries, who obviously are more partial to western players. If Waldner was Chinese, he wouldn't have been viewed in any special way. It's just like how there are still some fans out there who claim Boll is the greatest player in the world, despite Boll not even winning and world championships, and of the three majors has only won the easiest and least impressive of them.

Wang Liqin really reached a level of dominance that in the modern era we have never seen. His solid backhand combined with his unparalleled backhand meant that when he was playing well he was unstoppable. There was such a long period where he and Ma Lin basically reached the finals of every pro tour tournament, with Wang Liqin winning the overwhelming majority of them. It's quite an impressive feat, when you consider the fact that Ma Lin is such a legend, and is probably the greatest penholder player ever, and epitomizes the ultimate traditional penholder style.

Physically Wang Liqin also is probably the most gifted player in history. He has the best combination of size and quickness of any player. There are people faster than him, but not bigger, and then there are people bigger than him but not faster. God knows how insanely good Wang Liqin would have been if he had come along a little later and got the training and came up in the system that has been streamlined and perfected by the time Ma Long appeared.

 

[scylla24]

I definitely agree with many of the other commentators that Ma Long has the potential to smash all these records and become the greatest player in history. With the Chinese team being so dominant, Ma Long from the very start of his career has been able to standout, and thats really something incredible. To be able to standout in the most competitive and best trained table tennis system in the world isn't easy. Even from the very beginning, Ma Long, when he first appeared on the junior international scene, clearly showed a level of skill and talent that was extraordinary. And from that level he really built on it, and basically is the most prized player in the Chinese National Team.

Looking into the future, which while I realize isn't what we are really doing for the purpose of this thread, as long as Ma Long doesn't really injure himself, its not hard to see him smashing all these records. I don't really see any up and coming table tennis players who have the ability to compete with him, and the only two players who have a chance right now, Wang Hao and ZJK, he tends to have the advantage against. Especially against ZJK who is his main rival. Its a good sign when the player who most people view as the 2nd best player currently, and your main rival, is someone who you have like a 85+ win percentage against (ZJK). Its pretty surprising that Ma Long actually hasn't won a world cup yet, considering its a once a year event. Given his performance this year, it won't be surprising if he is picked as one of the singles players for the olympics, in which case unless he chokes, its not hard to envision him winning. This given the fact that he is still only 23, is insane! Table tennis players peak when they are generally 24-28 or so, so in that period if Ma Long doesn't get injured he has the chance to get an insane number of majors.

 

[gregoire]

Good point that Waldner is so popular because "non-chinese" nationality. Ma Lin record with Wang Liqin is 21-20 from 2001 year. Ma Long has 18-2 with Zhang Jike.

 

[Anders]

Either Waldner or Persson... They were so great players, and there will never be anyone like them. Maybe Ma Long, but still he is not nearly as creative as the scandinavian players have always been. The Chinese and German players are like machines, while the Swedes and the Danes (dont wanna count the Norwegians, as we suck internationally) are playing on creativeness, much more fun to watch

But I think if we look at months on the wr nr 1 spot, it must be WLQ

 

[Mr. RicharD]

This is a little off topic, but imagine if a Male player were to be as successful as Zhang Yining. She had a 5 year consecutive ranking at #1 and then dropped a month then had another long stretch dropping another month and so on until her retirement. If a male could play correlative to her success it would be crazy.

 

[harrybelafonte]

Waldner had to take on all of europe and the chinese, europe had far better players then , with persson, applegren , gatien roskopf, primorac all almost on a level with the chinese, he was n world final 87, won 89 in final and probably let person win in 91 final, in semi in 93.. hardly a crap record...team finalin 83 ,85,87, won 89, won 91 ,won 93, final 95,.he also won the olympics in the meantime...so for 6 years he was the man... he defeated three generation of all the chinese could throw at him,,chen, jiang, ma wenge, kong and liu... also he done it in impeccable style, won close games, lashed them , the 21-6 demolition of lui in the world team final is the best end of tt you will ever see, period. I like wang dont get me wrong,,, he is an incredibe player, amazing forehand,,, but not the panache" of the legend...bit like lendl to mcenroe..

 

[Matt Hetherington]

Wow thanks for the extra Carl that's pretty incredible amount of time as World Number 1, it's not hard to see how he still performs so well, he really is an insane athlete

 

[harrybelafonte]

waldner won the worlds at 33 same age as wang liquin is now

 

[Mr. RicharD]

@ harry, but you're not taking into account that the sport was so different then compared to now. It is true that Waldner and the Europeans were as strong as the Chinese and Korean players of that era, but that was also during the 21 point 5 hidden service, 38 mm ball, and speed glue eras. The difference from then and now is like that of Babe Ruth to today's baseball players. Todays players are stronger, faster, play with different equipment, play different tactics and different training systems. The same goes for now. Wang Liqin's record stands pretty strong against Waldner. Waldner in his prime wouldn't be the same player in this era as he was in the last one because frankly he helped to develop this newer era. They're just better than he was because they have taken every one of his strengths to add on to their own. You can see it Ma Lin's drop shot or when Wang Liqin decided to drive the ball rather than the Euro loop/smash. He wanted to hit the ball harder and faster than everyone else and did it better than anyone else even today in my opinion. His feet may not be able to keep up when the ball is hit toward the BH court, but I have still yet to see a rally where he is FH to FH in exchange with the younger generation that he doesn't win the majority of the time. Frankly the only way they win against him is when the move him around to the BH.

So to answer the original question of who was the best and greatest in his Prime I would have to go with WLQ because you can't compare an older generation to the newer one because the newer generation is automatically better because of what they learn from the older generation. TT would not be where it is today had it not been for Waldner and before him the Hungarians and before them Victor Barna. Just as WH and XX are better players because of LQL and MLin. Just as ZJK and MLong are better players because of WLQ and KLH. It's just a matter of who has passed their prime and WLQ has or is very close to doing so. ZJK, XX, MLong, and even WH have yet to pass their Prime yet. Ma Lin may also have passed his prime we'll just have to see if he is retiring or not.

 

[harrybelafonte]

I know what your saying, but sometimes people transcend there sport, waldner did it in his era,barna his, muhamid ali his,, they are the players people will remember..guo for me was better than wang liquin. 4 times final in a row, was unbeatable for about 6 years,,

 

[Mr. RicharD]

Guo? Which one Liu Guo Liang? And I'd have to agree his skill level was impressive, but still if compared to the past WLQ was coached by these players and their first priority would be to teach them everything they've learned to grow them even better. I do get where you're coming from and no one's denying players like Waldner and Barna won't transcend time because they are legends, but the question at hand would have to apply to the present in my opinion because a player's Prime is based off of what they've learned and accomplished.

 

[harrybelafonte]

guo,,, only one mate,, guo yuo hao.. penhold looper, bigger thighs than zhang zike, unbeatable for years,, literally,, so ma long is the best now as no one can touch him but he s not won one of the big ones.. so because he is the best now is he the best ever, this is what your saying...he is taking the game to the next level..,, also... but sport is about bottle and winning.... and inducing emotion and exhiliration.... not just he/ she was the best....ma lin was the best chinese to watch over the last ten years , but certainly not the best..

 

[ttmonster]

Its like the debate whether Federer is the greatest player ever in tennis even though he has a losing record against Nadal .... its not about the record or the stats .. because its from different eras ..... its purely about whether you feel this guy has transcended the sport .. and in table tennis its Jan Ove Waldner at his "peak" because ... .. I will try to explain ....
1. because he did it without the chinese training system
2. because he could still win at 33 , beat an up and coming Timo Boll as if he was playing against a student
3. because he is one of those huge talents that frittered away parts of it because of his known bohemian lifestyle and still achieve what he did
4. because he could play touch during "speed-glue" and make the "best" look ridiculous
5. because he could be insanely unfit and still take it to the no. 1 player in sweeden ( I think a couple of years back )

 

[YosuaYosan]

Oh to add..
In his PRIME, Schlagi is the man XD

 

[harrybelafonte]

Its like the debate whether Federer is the greatest player ever in tennis even though he has a losing record against Nadal .... its not about the record or the stats .. because its from different eras ..... its purely about whether you feel this guy has transcended the sport .. and in table tennis its Jan Ove Waldner at his "peak" because ... .. I will try to explain ....
1. because he did it without the chinese training system
2. because he could still win at 33 , beat an up and coming Timo Boll as if he was playing against a student
3. because he is one of those huge talents that frittered away parts of it because of his known bohemian lifestyle and still achieve what he did
4. because he could play touch during "speed-glue" and make the "best" look ridiculous
5. because he could be insanely unfit and still take it to the no. 1 player in sweeden ( I think a couple of years back )

awesome...

 

[harrybelafonte]

although just to add, he did go to china when young and it opened his eyes to how hard he had to train, which he then did....according to his book

 

[scylla24]

Its like the debate whether Federer is the greatest player ever in tennis even though he has a losing record against Nadal .... its not about the record or the stats .. because its from different eras ..... its purely about whether you feel this guy has transcended the sport .. and in table tennis its Jan Ove Waldner at his "peak" because ... .. I will try to explain ....
1. because he did it without the chinese training system
2. because he could still win at 33 , beat an up and coming Timo Boll as if he was playing against a student
3. because he is one of those huge talents that frittered away parts of it because of his known bohemian lifestyle and still achieve what he did
4. because he could play touch during "speed-glue" and make the "best" look ridiculous
5. because he could be insanely unfit and still take it to the no. 1 player in sweeden ( I think a couple of years back )

Hmmm there are a lot of possible holes in your argument.... The Chinese training system has only really reached a level of peak after Waldner's true prime years. During much of his career, the top training system was probably sweden. the Chinese system may have required a lot of training and hard work, but it really has developed the streamlined efficiency that it has today.

Boll's game matches up horribly against Waldner for one thing. Waldner's style incorporates a lot of the same block shots that Oh Seung Enh has, and Boll also does horribly against him. Even if we don't consider this, having a lot of experience in a sport can often outweigh a lot of other factors. I mean if we really look at it, at the current moment, Wang Liqin despite not being able to beat many of the younger Chinese, he still beats all the nonChinese players, and when he is in peak form, still beats Ma Lin, and I think has a good chance of beating Xu Xin and ZJK.

the argument that Waldner faced europeans that were far better in their day compared with those today, along with the argument that he stood toe to toe with the Chinese is really hard to make a convincing argument with. I don't think the past european players were necessarily any better, I just think that comparatively they did better against their Chinese counterparts. For the reasons stated above, even though the Chinese were a big player even several decades ago, I really don't think their system reached even close to its maturity that it reach by the time Wang Liqin and Ma Lin began to become the main representatives of China, and even that generation's system can't compare with what the system that created Ma Long and ZJK are like today. Right now we have 6 Chinese in the top 10, 3 in the top 3, and then aside from Boll, the next three are also Chinese, thats a level of domination that China has never reached in the past.

 

[scylla24]

Oh to add..
In his PRIME, Schlagi is the man XD

Yeah Schlager really doesn't always get the credit he deserves. In his prime he had such a tricky game, had such good tactics and mental strength, that he won more often against the Chinese than Boll has ever done.