Harimoto loses to balding Grandpa

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah I can see that Harimoto gets hot and plays incredibly well. But will he get hot during world championship week? We have to wait and see.

was Harimoto's exit in the QF of Durban WTTC 2023 not hot enough?
was Harimoto's performance against China of Chengdu WTTTC 2022 not hot enough?
you must have a pretty high temperature readings.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

BTW, I also don't really understand the "non-Chinese" argument. If ML, FZD, WCQ were each from different countries, would that make Harimoto's results better or worse?

meaning, HT has performed the best of the non Chinese players - hence he is CNT public enemy no 1

do yourself a favour and go read world ranking list for the past 5 years and see how HT has been climbing it, so you can have some educated thought on the matter.

There is not a single player inside the past 5 years that has features as good as HT and his best of his career so far was July 2022 to May 2023. Which you seem to disagree or treat it like HT has failed in this period of time.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Also, I think Harimoto or his team, on some level, feel the same way. I say he should try something new, but the reality is he has been trying something new here and there.

He has changed coaches several times the past few years, obviously trying to inject something new into him. He has tried to build up more muscle, which was the intense focus of Japanese media for a while. And he has worked on improving his forehand stroke, which was also the focus of Japanese media.

So, I think on some level, he knows he needs something new and is trying. Maybe time is his friend and his training will pay off leading to more title wins.

Maybe he needs a more drastic change.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Also, I think Harimoto or his team, on some level, feel the same way. I say he should try something new, but the reality is he has been trying something new here and there.

He has changed coaches several times the past few years, obviously trying to inject something new into him. He has tried to build up more muscle, which was the intense focus of Japanese media for a while. And he has worked on improving his forehand stroke, which was also the focus of Japanese media.

So, I think on some level, he knows he needs something new and is trying. Maybe time is his friend and his training will pay off leading to more title wins.

Maybe he needs a more drastic change.

so how do you "view" the players who are ranked below HT during the past 5 years?
you should write a book hey

 

[TensorBackhand]

so how do you "view" the players who are ranked below HT during the past 5 years?
you should write a book hey

Simple. They are lower performing than Harimoto. Harimoto is lower performing than the big 3 right now.

What part of that is hard to understand. Andy Roddick is a very good player, a top 5 player for a long time. But he will never be on the same level as Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Singapore 2023, Harimoto loses to Aruna in Rof16
2023 WTTC Harimoto loses to LJK in QF
2023 Macao Harimoto loses to Wang Chuqin in SF
2023 Xinxiang Harimoto loses to Lim Jonghoon Rof16

Are these the results he wanted for a 100 year talent? 3 of those guys are ranked below him.

But again, we have different definitions of Harimoto's goal. If his top is top 5 ranking, he is meeting his goal. If his goal is title wins, then the objective results speak for themselves.

 

[TensorBackhand]

If we interviewed Harimoto, "Harimoto, how do you view your own performance this year?"

"Excellent, I've maintained top 5 ranking, and I'm the best non-Chinese player"

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

2023 WTTC Harimoto loses to Bobocica in Ro16

Really?
So is this fake?

 

[TensorBackhand]

Really?
So is this fake?
View attachment 26614

Correction: he lost to LJK. I read the results table wrong. But still doesn't change the overall results for this year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If we interviewed Harimoto, "Harimoto, how do you view your own performance this year?"

"Excellent, I've maintained top 5 ranking, and I'm the best non-Chinese player"

I know you always want the last say - we all know that by now

1) you should say sorry to a player who played very well today, he is 38 years old from a country that is far from being known for it's table tennis, and you don't seem to be much thinner than him.
And what is wrong being bald headed?
In 1 thread, you trash talk 2 people, both the winner and the looser of an elite tournament.

2) enjoy having the last say after this post.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I know you always want the last say - we all know that by now

1) you should say sorry to a player who played very well today, he is 38 years old from a country that is far from being known for it's table tennis, and you don't seem to be much thinner than him.
And what is wrong being bald headed?
In 1 thread, you trash talk 2 people, both the winner and the looser of an elite tournament.

2) enjoy having the last say after this post.

I dont know why you can't just respect that I have a different opinion than yours. You always need to not allow people to have a different opinion.

My opinion is that H3 blue sponge is not so different from H3 orange sponge. My opinion is that Harimoto's results have not lived up his talent, and he should seek a change.

I accept that you think BS is superior, that is perfectly valid opinion. I accept that you find Harimoto's results to be good. As a top 5 player, he is better than 99.9% of players, so I find that valid.

But my opinion is different. Why can't we just accept different opinions.

 

[NextLevel]

BTW, I also don't really understand the "non-Chinese" argument. If ML, FZD, WCQ were each from different countries, would that make Harimoto's results better or worse?

You seem to pretend that China hasn't dominated the table tennis scene for the last 20 years and that outside the Chinese group, Harimoto hasn't been largely the best player in the world. Yes he has bad losses. Yes, he has style issues which he continues to work on to round out his game. Outside of China, how many players have made 2 WTTC quarter finals in the last 8 years? And in those quarter finals, what were the nationalities of the players he lost to?

LGL already said that Harimoto would face challenges fully realizing his potential outside the Chinese system. But what is also obvious is that Harimoto is an incredibly hard worker. I think everything points to his knowing that he has to continue to evolve and we can see all the work that has gone into evolving his game. It's also obvious that he is currently going through a period where something beneath the surface is affecting his game.

I guess the main issue is that you seem to sound like you are dismissive of the difficulties he faces and the things he has actually achieved and just want to focus on what you think a generational talent should achieve in the abstract. IT's okay to think he should be further ahead, but as Carl pointed out, all the people who have achieved as much or more than him at a similar age in recent times are all from one country!

 

[TensorBackhand]

You seem to pretend that China hasn't dominated the table tennis scene for the last 20 years and that outside the Chinese group, Harimoto hasn't been largely the best player in the world. Yes he has bad losses. Yes, he has style issues which he continues to work on to round out his game. Outside of China, how many players have made 2 WTTC quarter finals in the last 8 years? And in those quarter finals, what were the nationalities of the players he lost to?

LGL already said that Harimoto would face challenges fully realizing his potential outside the Chinese system. But what is also obvious is that Harimoto is an incredibly hard worker. I think everything points to his knowing that he has to continue to evolve and we can see all the work that has gone into evolving his game. It's also obvious that he is currently going through a period where something beneath the surface is affecting his game.

I guess the main issue is that you seem to sound like you are dismissive of the difficulties he faces and the things he has actually achieved and just want to focus on what you think a generational talent should achieve in the abstract. IT's okay to think he should be further ahead, but as Carl pointed out, all the people who have achieved as much or more than him at a similar age in recent times are all from one country!

Well that's part of my issue. Are there things he can do to be more like the Chinese system players?

Can he try using boosted H3 or Dignics 09c? Can he step around and try to be more forehand attacking style? Can he try to play more like the Chinese top players?

Can he get one of the knowledgeable Chinese coaches? Can he train with some Chinese players? Can he play in the Chinese super league?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But knock and the door will open for you, I just think he can probably try to do more to give himself a better chance.

 

[NextLevel]

Well that's part of my issue. Are there things he can do to be more like the Chinese system players?

Can he try using boosted H3 or Dignics 09c? Can he step around and try to be more forehand attacking style? Can he try to play more like the Chinese top players?

Can he get one of the knowledgeable Chinese coaches? Can he train with some Chinese players? Can he play in the Chinese super league?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But knock and the door will open for you, I just think he can probably try to do more to give himself a better chance.

The kid is a 20 year old. He has time to work and figure it out. He just has to keep working. And if he doesn't get there, he has fed his family and made good money and worked hard. That is what is life is about.

 

[TensorBackhand]

The kid is a 20 year old. He has time to work and figure it out. He just has to keep working. And if he doesn't get there, he has fed his family and made good money and worked hard. That is what is life is about.

If that's his goal, then all the best wishes to him! If he works it out and gets over the hurdles, then great on him as well.

 

[zeio]

The premise of this thread sounds like Boll and Ovtcharov in the "Timo Boll & Dima Ovtcharov TBW Live" where they said Harimoto was not as talented as WCQ and LYJ but his mental strength could make him a World Champion one day.

Below are the cold hard facts. Keep in mind Harimoto is the reigning 2022 Asian Cup holder.

http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/foru...le=european-summer-series-2022-7-1122#1129380

"Not as effortless" and "not as powerful" are on point, but "not as talented" is poor word choice here.

ML has mentioned after Polish Open 2015 that his level was not as good as Harimoto at the age of 12.
LGL has mentioned before Team World Cup 2018 that no players of the same age on the CNT had an edge over Harimoto.
Miyazaki has even been more direct and boldly claimed(FWIW) after WTTC 2017 that Harimoto is "a talent that only comes around 1 time in 100 years."
At the press conference after losing to Harimoto at the All-Japan Championships 2018, Mizutani said he was fortunate to have won so many titles(9 at the time) before Harimoto came along and that his strength was on par with the CNT players.
Harimoto has yet to lose to LYJ in international competitions to this date.
Harimoto has 7 8 career titles out of 11 13 finals(2 out of 1 3 in 2022, 1 out of 2 in 2021, 1 out of 1 in 2020, 1 out of 3 in 2019, 2 out of 2 in 2018, 1 out of 2 in 2017) in senior events.
LYJ has 3 4 career titles (5 if counting T2 Diamond) out of 5 6 7 finals (9 if counting T2 Diamond)(1 out of 1 in 2023, 1 out of 1 2 in 2022, 0 out of 1 in 2021, 2 out of 3 (3 out of 5 if counting T2 Diamond) in 2019) in senior events.
WCQ has 2 4 5 career titles out of 6 8 11 finals(1 out of 3 in 2023, 3 out of 1 3 in 2022, 0 out of 1 in 2021, 1 out of 3 in 2019, 0 out of 1 in 2018) in senior events. Take this with a grain of salt as his previously low world ranking meant he kept running into his teammates.
The last thing is we have to factor in their age:
Harimoto 2003/6/27
LYJ 2001/8/17
WCQ 2000-2/5/11(this one is very controversial)

 

[TensorBackhand]

The premise of this thread sounds like Boll and Ovtcharov in the "Timo Boll & Dima Ovtcharov TBW Live" where they said Harimoto was not as talented as WCQ and LYJ but his mental strength could make him a World Champion one day.

Below are the cold hard facts. Keep in mind Harimoto is the reigning 2022 Asian Cup holder.

http://mytabletennis.net/FORUM/foru...le=european-summer-series-2022-7-1122#1129380

Never noticed anything unusual about his mental strength. What about his mental strength stands out?

 

[BaRanchik]

Well that's part of my issue. Are there things he can do to be more like the Chinese system players?

Can he try using boosted H3 or Dignics 09c? Can he step around and try to be more forehand attacking style? Can he try to play more like the Chinese top players?

Can he get one of the knowledgeable Chinese coaches? Can he train with some Chinese players? Can he play in the Chinese super league?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But knock and the door will open for you, I just think he can probably try to do more to give himself a better chance.

Japanese people in general are very law abiding. Boosting is illegal, so I'd think the Japanese players are more wary of this rule, than say the Chinese who alongside the Americans and Russians are known to be doing everything they can to win medals.

Also, Japan and China are not exactly in the best of terms. I'm sure the possibilities for training together and getting coached by top Chinese coaches exist, but reality is not always what we'd like it to be. Politics play a big role in sports (even though it shouldn't, of course).

Regarding changing his entire style, do you think he'd do better copying FZD, than playing his own style? I am not sure, but I am sure he tried every style possible in his 18 years of playing the game, starting at the age of 2.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Japanese people in general are very law abiding. Boosting is illegal, so I'd think the Japanese players are more wary of this rule, than say the Chinese who alongside the Americans and Russians are known to be doing everything they can to win medals.

Also, Japan and China are not exactly in the best of terms. I'm sure the possibilities for training together and getting coached by top Chinese coaches exist, but reality is not always what we'd like it to be. Politics play a big role in sports (even though it shouldn't, of course).

Regarding changing his entire style, do you think he'd do better copying FZD, than playing his own style? I am not sure, but I am sure he tried every style possible in his 18 years of playing the game, starting at the age of 2.

I'm fairly certain that Japanese players boost as well. Ishikawa Kasumi and Hina Hayata both use H3, I'm pretty sure they boost.

Harimoto was formerly a Chinese citizen, born to Chinese parents, and I believe his current coach is Chinese too. His family has deep connections to the Chinese institutions, and if he tried hard enough, I'm pretty sure he could arrange something.

About style, its just like when Michael Chang was world #2 but realized he wasn't set up to compete with the top players at the big events. So he tried changing rackets, using larger head, longer racket, developing his serve and power to get himself over the hurdle. He failed, but he tried different things. Harimoto doesn't need to change his entire style, but I would just like to see himself make more of an risk.

 

[TensorBackhand]

One thing I remember is that Harimoto's father talked about how he specifically picked his son's blade and rubber that would be forgiving for a young kid, being easy to generate spin and speed.

But I think he's been using the same setup since he was 14 or 16 or something. He's bigger and stronger and an adult now. I wonder how his game would look if he used d09c on both sides, and maybe used a different blade.