How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[Wrighty67]

You can practice them separately, I did that to start. Just get your legs and hips to rotate the right way first, then add the upper body when you're used to it.

I'm about to start my FH focused training. I've been doing about 60% BH, 25% FH, 10% service, and 5% short game. Later this week I'll flip the FH/BH ratio and keep everything else the same. Even with a reduced FH workload I've been able to make quite a bit of progress in correcting my FH form. I'm not looking for perfection, just something more stable.

On that topic, I've found that I've been using my legs wrong. From the get go I trained the forward leaning loop, where my right leg kicks forward and lands a few inches in front of where it started at the end of a loop. That's fine against a floaty ball, and it's particularly useful when there's suddenly a short return when I'm away from the table. However, against faster balls I can't get to the ball fast enough and my recovery is slow. One of the issue is that to execute this shot, the ball needs to be somewhat in front of me, like ~45 degrees to my right, and when the ball is coming fast I can't get to it that quickly.

With the new motion I've found out two things. One is that it's optimal to take the ball later, ~15 degrees in front of you, or the right to left motion will loop the ball way off the left side of the table. This allows me the time to get to faster balls much more comfortably.

The second thing is that my legs are actually more for positioning and stability rather than power directly. First, they positions the rest of my body along all 3 axes (very important to adjust height for the vertical axis!) so I can get thr most comfortable shot. This is particularly important for the BH where the hit box is smaller. You see pros even jumping in the air sometimes to hit a BH loop.

The second thing is that it acts as an anchor for the rest of the body to generate power. During the backswing when the entire body leans right, the right leg maintains stability. When weight transfers to the left during the forward swing, the left leg assumes a prominent role. Only when doing the forward leaning shot or a brush loop do the legs actually provide a lot of power.

Thanks - I did use my club practice session last night to work on this and take what flowed in shadow practice into hitting balls. On balance I was very pleased - as long as I focused on dropping that right knee and turning the hips then it seemed to naturally drive a less shoulder dominant (and more forearm/wrist driven) stroke - I got more spin and better consistency when I timed it right. I was probably taking the ball a little later as you point out, despite trying to hit at top of bounce.

 

[IB66]

Thanks - I did use my club practice session last night to work on this and take what flowed in shadow practice into hitting balls. On balance I was very pleased - as long as I focused on dropping that right knee and turning the hips then it seemed to naturally drive a less shoulder dominant (and more forearm/wrist driven) stroke - I got more spin and better consistency when I timed it right. I was probably taking the ball a little later as you point out, despite trying to hit at top of bounce.

For maximum spin, the ball is taken later as the ball drops.
For some more flexibility, giving a couple of options, taking the ball at peak of bounce allows you to play a spiny ball and the option to play a faster ball.

 

[latej]

Hi Wrighty67, an idea for an exercise. The usual FH drive, where is the weight? On the right foot, on the left foot, or somewhere balanced going from right to left and back? I'd argue that usually we could say the weight is more or less balanced, going from right to left a bit and then back. You can try. Yet I'd ask you to "over-do" it a bit and put the weight on the right leg, so that most of the time you know the left foot is like on the finger tips. And do FH drive like that. The purpose of this is to develop the feeling of how the power goes from the ground through the leg up to hip, then a bit body rotation, and finally the arm movement (almost like secondary thing). If you put more weight on the right you'll feel it easier. Also if you then try to do the usual "balanced" way, then you'll realize the difference, and that will also help to feel it. I think it is necessary to develop this feeling, it will help also because you realize the arm is secondary, and it will prevent over-focus on the arm. A friend of mine, who is on the same level like me, thinks his FH is his weaker side. I want to do this with him too.

Edit: I forgot. Since this is just FH drive, it is "gentle" level of power. Relaxed. This is not full power, like full power FH topspin.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty67, an idea for an exercise. The usual FH drive, where is the weight? On the right foot, on the left foot, or somewhere balanced going from right to left and back? I'd argue that usually we could say the weight is more or less balanced, going from right to left a bit and then back. You can try. Yet I'd ask you to "over-do" it a bit and put the weight on the right leg, so that most of the time you know the left foot is like on the finger tips. And do FH drive like that. The purpose of this is to develop the feeling of how the power goes from the ground through the leg up to hip, then a bit body rotation, and finally the arm movement (almost like secondary thing). If you put more weight on the right you'll feel it easier. Also if you then try to do the usual "balanced" way, then you'll realize the difference, and that will also help to feel it. I think it is necessary to develop this feeling, it will help also because you realize the arm is secondary, and it will prevent over-focus on the arm. A friend of mine, who is on the same level like me, thinks his FH is his weaker side. I want to do this with him too.

Edit: I forgot. Since this is just FH drive, it is "gentle" level of power. Relaxed. This is not full power, like full power FH topspin.

Thanks Latej - good idea as I need to build that feeling up more. I will give it a try!

 

[NextLevel]

Lol - it’s definitely effortful! I agree completely though that it doesn’t look relaxed or free flowing but that’s maybe me trying to force a change.

Sorry, it has been a crazy time and the new web board doesn't alert me to new posts like the old one did.

Both strokes are much better and are headed in the right direction. The forehand is better than the backhand in the above but that is not saying much. Almost no one has the ideal backhand topspin vs backspin unless they are pros - we all tend to use the arm rather than squat. And on the forward swing, you don't really get out of the squat, you should just straighten your back and swing. But all of this is just to make the point that no one does it right at our level. You can check out the top Chinese or German players or even Jorgic if you are interested.

The backhand still has too much arm movement because you aren't getting low and staying low, but when I post my video, my backhand will look similar/worse so I can't be hypocritical. That said, what you need to continue to work on is to reduce the usage of the upper arm and snap into the ball more with a focus on *turning* the ball rather than *driving* the ball. This is what builds spin and consistency and the hypnotic effect of the slow topspin will lead to many easy points if the ball is short and the spin is there because the temptation to counter a high ball aggressively needs to many long blocks as long as the spin is there.

 

[NextLevel]

As an aside, as much as anyone can use an equipment they choose, for your playing level, you are finally using what I consider a sensible blade. Hopefully, you will stick with it for a while.

 

[Wrighty67]

Sorry, it has been a crazy time and the new web board doesn't alert me to new posts like the old one did.

Both strokes are much better and are headed in the right direction. The forehand is better than the backhand in the above but that is not saying much. Almost no one has the ideal backhand topspin vs backspin unless they are pros - we all tend to use the arm rather than squat. And on the forward swing, you don't really get out of the squat, you should just straighten your back and swing. But all of this is just to make the point that no one does it right at our level. You can check out the top Chinese or German players or even Jorgic if you are interested.

The backhand still has too much arm movement because you aren't getting low and staying low, but when I post my video, my backhand will look similar/worse so I can't be hypocritical. That said, what you need to continue to work on is to reduce the usage of the upper arm and snap into the ball more with a focus on *turning* the ball rather than *driving* the ball. This is what builds spin and consistency and the hypnotic effect of the slow topspin will lead to many easy points if the ball is short and the spin is there because the temptation to counter a high ball aggressively needs to many long blocks as long as the spin is there.

Thanks NL, appreciate the feedback.

Good pointers on the BH, and I will work on this tomorrow at club night - we often end up with some good doubles and for whatever reason I always find myself with a lot more opportunities to attack backspin on both wings.

 

[Wrighty67]

As an aside, as much as anyone can use an equipment they choose, for your playing level, you are finally using what I consider a sensible blade. Hopefully, you will stick with it for a while.

I stumbled across this blade but really like it for it’s feel and balance.

 

[dingyibvs]

Sorry, it has been a crazy time and the new web board doesn't alert me to new posts like the old one did.

Both strokes are much better and are headed in the right direction. The forehand is better than the backhand in the above but that is not saying much. Almost no one has the ideal backhand topspin vs backspin unless they are pros - we all tend to use the arm rather than squat. And on the forward swing, you don't really get out of the squat, you should just straighten your back and swing. But all of this is just to make the point that no one does it right at our level. You can check out the top Chinese or German players or even Jorgic if you are interested.

The backhand still has too much arm movement because you aren't getting low and staying low, but when I post my video, my backhand will look similar/worse so I can't be hypocritical. That said, what you need to continue to work on is to reduce the usage of the upper arm and snap into the ball more with a focus on *turning* the ball rather than *driving* the ball. This is what builds spin and consistency and the hypnotic effect of the slow topspin will lead to many easy points if the ball is short and the spin is there because the temptation to counter a high ball aggressively needs to many long blocks as long as the spin is there.

I agree with your assessment. My focus this week has been the BH drive vs backspin. I've finally gotten the feel down, and on my goodness is it hard on my left thigh! I've never felt my left leg stressed so much, but putting all my weight on my left leg then weight transferring to the right just 20 times or so and I can feel the burn. On the plus side, I finally understand now what it means to use your core for the BH loop. I've mainly been doing BH counters and quick loops, which involve the core only a little bit. But when you wind up for that big BH loop, you really engage your core as much as a big FH loop.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL, appreciate the feedback.

Good pointers on the BH, and I will work on this tomorrow at club night - we often end up with some good doubles and for whatever reason I always find myself with a lot more opportunities to attack backspin on both wings.

I will try to film some video to show that you are still engaging too much upper arm. The upper arm only adds a little power but it almost never adds spin. Over time as you get better, I suspect you will go for slower stuff -possibly a faster blade (or maybe the same) but with stickier rubbers. That said, I am largely communicating as an adult learner - I am not a technical textbook.

 

[Wrighty67]

I will try to film some video to show that you are still engaging too much upper arm. The upper arm only adds a little power but it almost never adds spin. Over time as you get better, I suspect you will go for slower stuff -possibly a faster blade (or maybe the same) but with stickier rubbers. That said, I am largely communicating as an adult learner - I am not a technical textbook.

I generally tend toward slower, higher trajectory loops on both sides but have been working with my coach on a more penetrating loop, taken earlier at top of bounce and in particular on half long balls such as I get on return of my serves.

Look at 7:30 in for the shot I’m looking to generate

 

[Brs]

I play at a club where we get to coach the newer players before and after the match play. This sort of hard (aka thick) contact is exactly what I am asking my five learners NOT to do. imo you will never consistently play spinny shots on the table with that much force. It looks good in mutliball but isn't really usable in matches.

Only my opinion, ymmv.

 

[IB66]

I generally tend toward slower, higher trajectory loops on both sides but have been working with my coach on a more penetrating loop, taken earlier at top of bounce and in particular on half long balls such as I get on return of my serves.

Look at 7:30 in for the shot I’m looking to generate

Hi Wrighty,

Do you see that his elbow is almost fixed in position, very little or no upper arm movement, the elbow forms a centre point for the forearm and hand to anchor to and turn around. Of course when using a fast action there is some movement but it’s pretty minimal. This is what NL is getting at, your current action has way to much upper arm movement and wrist can still be improved.

Even though his forearm moves pretty quick it’s pedestrian compared to the hand flexing and whipping thru, moves way way faster, the tip of the bat is furthest from the anchor point / elbow, this is the fastest moving part, hand and fingers second fastest moving, forearm 3rd fastest.

Personally, I would really get your wrist working really well, once you do, you can choose whether or not to use It. The power and speed that wrists can produce is pretty cool.

When you look at arm wrestlers their upper arms are massive, as are their forearms, ok the wrists are big, but in comparison pretty small !!
All that power has to be transferred through their wrists and hands, unbelievable!!

downside is timing !!! Because you have a faster moving bat, the timing zone is reduced, more precision required, there’s always something!!!

But as I said earlier IT’S YOUR CHOICE WHETHER TO USE IT.
not learning to use the wrist correctly takes away that choice.

CAUTION is needed though, wrists can be easily injured, so softly softly to start with.

 

[NextLevel]

I generally tend toward slower, higher trajectory loops on both sides but have been working with my coach on a more penetrating loop, taken earlier at top of bounce and in particular on half long balls such as I get on return of my serves.

Look at 7:30 in for the shot I’m looking to generate

Maybe vs topspin. Vs backspin? Usually not a great idea. And there are other challenges for adult learners related to getting to the ball early and in position. It will be an interesting transition, I wouldn't recommend it based on what I have seen, but I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again. You have some ways to go have a consistent spin mindset and I would work on that a bit more before trying to get you to generate power ( with a focus on the core) so that your fall back game is strengthened to its limits and can be connected to a faster game.

That said, your coach spends more time with you than any of us does, and if he has developed players like you, his opinion is more important than ours.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi Wrighty,

Do you see that his elbow is almost fixed in position, very little or no upper arm movement, the elbow forms a centre point for the forearm and hand to anchor to and turn around. Of course when using a fast action there is some movement but it’s pretty minimal. This is what NL is getting at, your current action has way to much upper arm movement and wrist can still be improved.

Even though his forearm moves pretty quick it’s pedestrian compared to the hand flexing and whipping thru, moves way way faster, the tip of the bat is furthest from the anchor point / elbow, this is the fastest moving part, hand and fingers second fastest moving, forearm 3rd fastest.

Personally, I would really get your wrist working really well, once you do, you can choose whether or not to use It. The power and speed that wrists can produce is pretty cool.

When you look at arm wrestlers their upper arms are massive, as are their forearms, ok the wrists are big, but in comparison pretty small !!
All that power has to be transferred through their wrists and hands, unbelievable!!

downside is timing !!! Because you have a faster moving bat, the timing zone is reduced, more precision required, there’s always something!!!

But as I said earlier IT’S YOUR CHOICE WHETHER TO USE IT.
not learning to use the wrist correctly takes away that choice.

CAUTION is needed though, wrists can be easily injured, so softly softly to start with.

Thanks IB, I can see what you’re pointing out here re elbow stability and use of wrist - and it makes sense.

 

[Wrighty67]

Maybe vs topspin. Vs backspin? Usually not a great idea. And there are other challenges for adult learners related to getting to the ball early and in position. It will be an interesting transition, I wouldn't recommend it based on what I have seen, but I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again. You have some ways to go have a consistent spin mindset and I would work on that a bit more before trying to get you to generate power ( with a focus on the core) so that your fall back game is strengthened to its limits and can be connected to a faster game.

That said, your coach spends more time with you than any of us does, and if he has developed players like you, his opinion is more important than ours.

Maybe there’s a middle ground but my typical more vertical brushed BH loop is not dangerous enough vs pushed serve return, and often comes back as a block or counter - I’m looking to capitalise on a push return and attack it to some degree When I’m in position.

 

[LDM7]

Hi all - I did some work on this today and recorded a shadow practice and then some hitting.

Shadow;

FH

BH

I think I see an improvement in a more compact and less shoulder led stroke, with more lower body action?

seeing progress Wrighty, seeing progress

i particularly like the way your FH brushes the ball, generating more spin and control

the quality of the FH loop allows us to retain or gain control
of the rally (or at least staying even, not pissing the point away), with the hope of setting up a kill or opponent mistake (that's for me)

your FH stance is also improving

in no time, you'll be even more fluid & relaxed

having said all that, i am still jealous of your BH, see ya'

 

[LDM7]

I generally tend toward slower, higher trajectory loops on both sides but have been working with my coach on a more penetrating loop, taken earlier at top of bounce and in particular on half long balls such as I get on return of my serves.

Look at 7:30 in for the shot I’m looking to generate

i like 7:30 💪

 

[dingyibvs]

Do you guys have any advice on playing against a one sided penhold active blocker? I've been having some practices with the best semi-regular player at my nearest club, and I'm having a ton of trouble with his punchy blocks. This is particularly an issue on the BH side, because the ball comes with a lot less spin than I'm used to. I'm also having a lot of issues with him punching back topspin serves. They're not coming back super fast as I serve them reasonably low and not too long, but I seem to get a good timing on how to counter them back unlike someone with a SH grip countering or looping/flicking my serve back.

I'm thinking that I should let his returns come a bit closer to me, and loop them back instead of attempting a quick counter off the bounce. With no spin to borrow from, quick counters may be a bit difficult. But since it doesn't have much spin it shouldn't dip too low too fast and I should be able to loop it, thus applying my own spin more effectively. Maybe I could do that on the FH side as well and increase my success rate. What do you guys think?

My miss rate against him is so much higher than against other players, so there must be something about his shots that I'm not processing correctly.

 

[LDM7]

Thanks for watching, and great comments LDM7. I put some thoughts in-line above.

Howdy doody Brs:

Thanks for going through the process on my read of your first game

like I said – not an easy exercise b/c i am not always confident in what I see, then turn around, making comments

I am more use to listening to what others have to say why I won or lost

Some of your comments i.e. “dreaded pre-decision,“ “lazy” and “sad” made me laugh

Also, I am going to develop some type of BH dTL shot jst like yours, and remember to use it in matches (with quality)

Take care man, talk soon