How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[dingyibvs]

BTW dingyibvs, what club you play at if I never asked? Maybe I cause trouble there one day on a travel adventure one day.

I do league play at the Concord TTC, which is actually in Pleasant Hill. I also play at the Pleasanton TTC, which is farther away so I usually only go there on weekends. The big ones like ICC and 888 are a bit far, but I might venture to Berkeley and Alameda TTC at some point.

 

[Der_Echte]

ICC and 888 or TTA or such too far? I think those are reasonable, like one hour away.

It takes me almost one hour to go to the Slavic Church for reliable TT action and almost all city streets or crowded freeway, so one hour driving is reasonable enough in my jacked up opinion for quality TT action. Takes me 2.5 to 3 hrs to get to those places.

You gunna do the Sacramento Teams or Individual Round Robins on March 18th?

https://omnipong.com/EntryForms/1023-33.pdf

I did Berkley RR exactly once with friends... in 2018.

I know a goodly chunk, but not all of the bay Area TT crowd for visiting the area only infrequently. I cause trouble everywhere I go, but it is a good form of trouble - having people enjoy TT times.

 

[dingyibvs]

ICC and 888 or TTA or such too far? I think those are reasonable, like one hour away.

It takes me almost one hour to go to the Slavic Church for reliable TT action and almost all city streets or crowded freeway, so one hour driving is reasonable enough in my jacked up opinion for quality TT action. Takes me 2.5 to 3 hrs to get to those places.

You gunna do the Sacramento Teams or Individual Round Robins on March 18th?

https://omnipong.com/EntryForms/1023-33.pdf

I did Berkley RR exactly once with friends... in 2018.

I know a goodly chunk, but not all of the bay Area TT crowd for visiting the area only infrequently. I cause trouble everywhere I go, but it is a good form of trouble - having people enjoy TT times.

You know what, you're right, I should at least be able to make it to ICC on weekends, I might do that sometimes. 888 the traffic is gonna be terrible with having to cross the bay bridge.

I have plans with the wife that weekend so I probably can't. I think maybe June/July should be good months for me for tournaments, you know of any around our area around that time? I'll be submitting my June schedule requests soon, otherwise I work a good bit of weekends so might be tough to match up especially if it's a 2-day thing.

 

[NextLevel]

Will replace with an edited version when I make one. Comments welcome. And I would like Wrighty to observe the general elbow positioning of both players and the degree of upper arm usage - and these players both tend to use their upper arm more than most players at their level to be honest.

 

[Wrighty67]

Will replace with an edited version when I make one. Comments welcome. And I would like Wrighty to observe the general elbow positioning of both players and the degree of upper arm usage - and these players both tend to use their upper arm more than most players at their level to be honest.

Noted re elbow position being kept lower and reducing upper arm involvement - also more spin on the ball on both wings. Very nice backhand open ups and serve returns NL!

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi team

Played an important match last night vs the team just behind us at the top of the league table. I lost alll 3 last time out to these guys (but won 2 the previous occasion) I was very keen to be "present" and not to let my nerves get on top of me - I am pleased to say they didn't which felt like an important step.

I beat the two guys I lost to last time out but had to work hard - I lost to their number 1 player (Dave) who is undefeated until this match for the season and is a decent player (I did take a game off him)

In general, I see many of the same faults in my technique;

Poor footwork
Too much upper arm
Too close to the ball and the table

I clearly need more work to groove the stroke on my FH and get that upper arm out and more lower body and circularity to the swing - more spin.

BUT

I do see more intent and use of topspin open ups on both wings - my FH was decent last night and won me a lot of points and whilst I did push some back on the BH, I also tried to open up more.

Happy to hear any thoughts/feedback as always.

Vs Dave (Lost 3-1)

Vs Leyon (Won 3-1)

Vs Paul (Won 3-0)

 

[NextLevel]

Just started watching. Wrighty, Dave is a different class of player and probably got good coaching as a junior. If he developed that technique as an adult more power to him. Getting a game off him is pretty good. I see some good signs in your game. Will comment more later.

 

[IB66]

Will replace with an edited version when I make one. Comments welcome. And I would like Wrighty to observe the general elbow positioning of both players and the degree of upper arm usage - and these players both tend to use their upper arm more than most players at their level to be honest.

Hey NL great to see you playing!!

I think maybe I’ve seen you play once before, if I’ve got it right? Carl, Der and yourself goofing off playing doubles with that trouble maker Matt Hetherington when he rocked into town and shook the dojo up???!!!

Looking solid, BH is nice, once you got FH going, nice and controlled!!

 

[IB66]

Hi Wrighty,

Can see some improvements for sure!!
Dave is a tough cookie, you did well to get a game off him.

Against Leyon, you did well to come back after losing the 1st set, you played well, gave hIm some issues with your BH serve and capitalised on it.
My guess is that he has played for a number of years, looked like he shields his FH serve with his free arm!! Something I can drift back into now and again!!
Will watch the game v Paul tomorrow.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi team

Played an important match last night vs the team just behind us at the top of the league table. I lost alll 3 last time out to these guys (but won 2 the previous occasion) I was very keen to be "present" and not to let my nerves get on top of me - I am pleased to say they didn't which felt like an important step.

I beat the two guys I lost to last time out but had to work hard - I lost to their number 1 player (Dave) who is undefeated until this match for the season and is a decent player (I did take a game off him)

In general, I see many of the same faults in my technique;

Poor footwork
Too much upper arm
Too close to the ball and the table

I clearly need more work to groove the stroke on my FH and get that upper arm out and more lower body and circularity to the swing - more spin.

BUT

I do see more intent and use of topspin open ups on both wings - my FH was decent last night and won me a lot of points and whilst I did push some back on the BH, I also tried to open up more.

Happy to hear any thoughts/feedback as always.

Vs Dave (Lost 3-1)

Vs Leyon (Won 3-1)

Vs Paul (Won 3-0)

Nice work! Dave has a very similar playing style as me, a style that I'm trying to train my way out of. He has a tricky serve and will punish anything weak regardless of spin on the FH side. His BH side is limited to defending and weak counters.

The way to beat him is the way many people beat me, force everything to his BH. Pushes, counters, loops, everything. You don't really need quality, because he can't punish you from that side. On the occasion that he does, don't stop, because he can't do it consistently. When he starts to try to step around and use his FH from his BH side, occasionally send one wide to his FH. This is purely a tactical adjustment, something you're able to do right now without any improvement in your technique.

 

[dingyibvs]

Just watched the 2nd match, he's kind of the opposite of the first guy. I don't think he landed a single attack with his FH. I think a simple strategy of pushing to his FH then get ready to loop the return would've made it a pretty simple game for you to win. You're a pretty well rounded player, with a good service and solid looping and blocking game on both wings. The nice thing about being well rounded is that you can pick a strategy, and I think with some better strategy you would've won a lot more points against both guys!

 

[Brs]

This forehand is very very nice.

 

[NextLevel]

Good matches, I think while there i work to do, a lot is headed in the right direction. The forehand is growing on me, the main issue is that to improve it, you need to make a conscious effort to use the legs more and o am not entirely sure what your calf issue does to you.

Dave is limited by his ability to counter spin, especially close to the table, your mistake was repeatedly trying to hit the ball past him when all you had to do was keep spin on the ball. You won your fair share of points when you spun the opener, especially with your backhand.

The forehand, I would actually work on smashing and driving backspin, not because I want you to use it in matches, but more because I want you to see that the upper arm compensation you are doing may not be as necessary as you think it is. Most of it is a result of not coming forward, but I suspect that if you just snapped the bicep after getting lower to loop on the forehand, as opposed to coming up straight and using the upper arm, just the bicep/forearm snap would give you a spinnier ball.

Right now, if I was your coach, I would continue to work on your wrist usage and your snapping into the ball. There is plenty of room for a spinnier backswing on the backhand. There is some room on the forehand as well but that would be a bit trickier. But I would definitely work really hard on your backhand side and make it pretty good at all kinds of shots (over the table serve return, long serve return, loops and blocks) so that people would just stop playing there and this would give you a chance to fix your forehand since everyone would start going to it

Well played and don't br hard on yourself. Everything was in a good direction.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

@Wrighty67
watched a bit your games.
here is what i think

(+) you can kill high balls with flat hits both with FH and BH side
(+) your backspin serves (notably reverse spin YG-like) are quite effective
(+) rather good amount of spin both sides when you had time to attack

(-) as for nearly everyone here (including myself) you should try to lower your stance, especially your upper body

(-) maybe the camera angle but it looks like sometimes when you take your FH backswing, your body is leaning a bit backwards.

(-) you have to work on your footwork. many times there is a half step to better adjust your position or a step, and you're not doing it, reaching for the ball instead and making a poor quality shot. your lack of footwork is also why you can't use much your FH during your match. you also get caught badly a few times when the ball is coming to your middle.
the weakness in your footwork also explains that you're playing more with your arm rather than the whole body and you're better with your BH side where footwork is relatively less important

---
you have some other advice but if i were you, id try to work on your footwork.

i'd work also more against backspin, especially because you serve a lot with good backspin serve and at this level you may get a lot of receive returns, that you're not always taking advantage of.

finally i think you should work on trying to have more cunning pushes (more spin, better placement, more variation etc...). at these levels, it will make you feel much safer to know you can win all the pushing rallies and avoid taking the risk of attacking first because that's not where you excel.

 

[AfroBro]

Nice work! Dave has a very similar playing style as me, a style that I'm trying to train my way out of. He has a tricky serve and will punish anything weak regardless of spin on the FH side. His BH side is limited to defending and weak counters.

The way to beat him is the way many people beat me, force everything to his BH. Pushes, counters, loops, everything. You don't really need quality, because he can't punish you from that side. On the occasion that he does, don't stop, because he can't do it consistently. When he starts to try to step around and use his FH from his BH side, occasionally send one wide to his FH. This is purely a tactical adjustment, something you're able to do right now without any improvement in your technique.

Hit the nail on the head! You'll get Dave next time Wrighty

But seriously, in case no one already knew, that was me and although I can usually rely on my FH, I'm not playing much this season and having major issues with my BH short game and any form of attack...I can still just about block! Not sure if it's the grip, stance or transitions between FH and BH but I need to find some time to train rather than just turn up at a match and hope it fixes itself!

That being said, there were massive improvements in Wrighty's game to the last time we played. New serves with better placement and good spin, a really nice backhand opener that was quite deceptive with were it was going and he was much more deadly once he got on the attack from both wings.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hit the nail on the head! You'll get Dave next time Wrighty

But seriously, in case no one already knew, that was me and although I can usually rely on my FH, I'm not playing much this season and having major issues with my BH short game and any form of attack...I can still just about block! Not sure if it's the grip, stance or transitions between FH and BH but I need to find some time to train rather than just turn up at a match and hope it fixes itself!

That being said, there were massive improvements in Wrighty's game to the last time we played. New serves with better placement and good spin, a really nice backhand opener that was quite deceptive with were it was going and he was much more deadly once he got on the attack from both wings.

Dave, you're very gracious and I hope you don't mind me posting this on here. I think there is a fair way to go before I give you anything to worry about ;-)

 

[Wrighty67]

Good matches, I think while there i work to do, a lot is headed in the right direction. The forehand is growing on me, the main issue is that to improve it, you need to make a conscious effort to use the legs more and o am not entirely sure what your calf issue does to you.

Dave is limited by his ability to counter spin, especially close to the table, your mistake was repeatedly trying to hit the ball past him when all you had to do was keep spin on the ball. You won your fair share of points when you spun the opener, especially with your backhand.

The forehand, I would actually work on smashing and driving backspin, not because I want you to use it in matches, but more because I want you to see that the upper arm compensation you are doing may not be as necessary as you think it is. Most of it is a result of not coming forward, but I suspect that if you just snapped the bicep after getting lower to loop on the forehand, as opposed to coming up straight and using the upper arm, just the bicep/forearm snap would give you a spinnier ball.

Right now, if I was your coach, I would continue to work on your wrist usage and your snapping into the ball. There is plenty of room for a spinnier backswing on the backhand. There is some room on the forehand as well but that would be a bit trickier. But I would definitely work really hard on your backhand side and make it pretty good at all kinds of shots (over the table serve return, long serve return, loops and blocks) so that people would just stop playing there and this would give you a chance to fix your forehand since everyone would start going to it

Well played and don't br hard on yourself. Everything was in a good direction.

Thanks NL - appreciate the advice and of course, support.

I think the main point here that you raise, for me, is re the FH per below - I need to re-wire my movement and the sequence (as we have discussed before) both for the loop and the topspin drive, and remove/reduce upper arm. I am continuing to work on this in training and club nights/informal matches.

The forehand, I would actually work on smashing and driving backspin, not because I want you to use it in matches, but more because I want you to see that the upper arm compensation you are doing may not be as necessary as you think it is. Most of it is a result of not coming forward, but I suspect that if you just snapped the bicep after getting lower to loop on the forehand, as opposed to coming up straight and using the upper arm, just the bicep/forearm snap would give you a spinnier ball.

Backhand felt to me more of a footwork piece - I am not in position early enough through poor anticipation and footwork, and so rush the shot.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks NL - appreciate the advice and of course, support.

I think the main point here that you raise, for me, is re the FH per below - I need to re-wire my movement and the sequence (as we have discussed before) both for the loop and the topspin drive, and remove/reduce upper arm. I am continuing to work on this in training and club nights/informal matches.



Backhand felt to me more of a footwork piece - I am not in position early enough through poor anticipation and footwork, and so rush the shot.

In general, footwork is a lower body exercise, and it is difficult for footwork to be effective if you don't play strokes with your lower body. If you don't train it, it doesn't come naturally, and training it is hard if your lower body isn't in top form. and you don't have equal strength in both legs. The high level concept is to feel as if you can swing into the ball with some body rotation or body preparation in time for the next shot, and not just use your arm. And that can be difficult to adjust with the legs. My recommendation is to always keep on drilling it at the slowest pace possible, and let your natural athleticism compensate in matches. It is exhausting to drill it at regular speed, and in matches, you often have adrenaline to help you do it in an actual point, but rushing it in drills can be demotivatingly exhausting. And I suspect for what you need, most of the value can be gained in multiball at a very slow pace as long as you sequence your shots in way that keeps you in balance. Backhand is also about elbow positioning, before I tried to get footwork, I used to just move my elbow around and hit the ball wherever it showed up.

One thing that I would recommend to you if your coach/training training partner could play you in backhand to backhand games or forehand to forehand games if they are really strong on that side. What you primarily want is to be able to feel confident that your shot holds up if you don't have to move and you can hit multiple spots in the opponent's court. On the forehand, I would also add some exercises for playing the ball down the line - your backhand already does something like this. The thing is that when you don't move well, you have to develop consistency, power and precise placement to compensate. The consistency gives you confidence if they don't move you, the power makes it harder for them to move you as redirecting balls is a bit harder if they don't back up or slow down, and then the placement makes it easy for you to challenge them.

Again, all this is just what it is. Your whip is getting better, but it can get even better. I still think there is low hanging fruit there on the forehand side and that you should focus on the quality of your backswing.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hit the nail on the head! You'll get Dave next time Wrighty

But seriously, in case no one already knew, that was me and although I can usually rely on my FH, I'm not playing much this season and having major issues with my BH short game and any form of attack...I can still just about block! Not sure if it's the grip, stance or transitions between FH and BH but I need to find some time to train rather than just turn up at a match and hope it fixes itself!

That being said, there were massive improvements in Wrighty's game to the last time we played. New serves with better placement and good spin, a really nice backhand opener that was quite deceptive with were it was going and he was much more deadly once he got on the attack from both wings.

Hah, I saw so much of myself in your game play! Improving the BH has been quite a journey for me. The issue as I found out is that even with significant improvements it's still got a ways to go to be an actual weapon in matches. So whenever a match starts you're still very tempted to just fall back to the old playing style. Then you're not using the BH often in game situations and improvement will further slow.

It's still a work in progress after 3 months of intensive practices, but I feel that I'm at a point where the focus is now on implementing practice results into game situations. So for practices I've moved on to the FH, but when I go play in the club the focus is still on actively using my BH.

 

[Wrighty67]

In general, footwork is a lower body exercise, and it is difficult for footwork to be effective if you don't play strokes with your lower body. If you don't train it, it doesn't come naturally, and training it is hard if your lower body isn't in top form. and you don't have equal strength in both legs. The high level concept is to feel as if you can swing into the ball with some body rotation or body preparation in time for the next shot, and not just use your arm. And that can be difficult to adjust with the legs. My recommendation is to always keep on drilling it at the slowest pace possible, and let your natural athleticism compensate in matches. It is exhausting to drill it at regular speed, and in matches, you often have adrenaline to help you do it in an actual point, but rushing it in drills can be demotivatingly exhausting. And I suspect for what you need, most of the value can be gained in multiball at a very slow pace as long as you sequence your shots in way that keeps you in balance. Backhand is also about elbow positioning, before I tried to get footwork, I used to just move my elbow around and hit the ball wherever it showed up.

One thing that I would recommend to you if your coach/training training partner could play you in backhand to backhand games or forehand to forehand games if they are really strong on that side. What you primarily want is to be able to feel confident that your shot holds up if you don't have to move and you can hit multiple spots in the opponent's court. On the forehand, I would also add some exercises for playing the ball down the line - your backhand already does something like this. The thing is that when you don't move well, you have to develop consistency, power and precise placement to compensate. The consistency gives you confidence if they don't move you, the power makes it harder for them to move you as redirecting balls is a bit harder if they don't back up or slow down, and then the placement makes it easy for you to challenge them.

Again, all this is just what it is. Your whip is getting better, but it can get even better. I still think there is low hanging fruit there on the forehand side and that you should focus on the quality of your backswing.

Got it - I need to consider this but think I understand. Certainly for FH I need to work that lower body and circular/swing type of movement. BH however feels very dependent on simply having moved across further to the BH side so I am behind the ball rather than reaching to my left for it. I have tendency to stay planted after a serve or return on FH rather than move across to be ready for BH or have space for FH - it's a habit that is exacerbated when I am nervous.