How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

says toooooo much choice!!
says toooooo much choice!!
Well-Known Member
Jul 2020
1,769
1,215
4,460
Read 11 reviews
Work on positioning your body further from the ball by a few cm. All else equal that will move your contact point nearer to the sweet spot.

Rozena is good. I just went back to it after two sheets of T05fx. I play slightly worse with tenergy at twice the price.
Hi Brs,
Did you play with Rakza Z for a while?
 
says toooooo much choice!!
says toooooo much choice!!
Well-Known Member
Jul 2020
1,769
1,215
4,460
Read 11 reviews
A little bit off topic, but still related to a certain extent!!
We have a young junior player that has started playing matches, we noticed that sometimes his spin levels were not what we were expecting during his game. He was using a Stiga pre made bat,.He lost his previous bat that had reasonable rubbers on!! His dad bought the Stiga pre made.
So I gave him a couple of set ups to try!!

A defensive blade with blue H9 37 degree and H8-80 37 degree on it, so YEAH it’ll be slow, real slow In comparison!!
As expected he didn’t like the set up!! What’s up with it., I asked, “I gotta work to hard to get the speed I want” he moaned!! Lazy bugger!!! That set up will help with technique I said. “ Nah too much hard work”

Set up 2 was R48 FH, R45 BH on a Jap primorac all wood. I glanced his way after a minute or so, he was grinning ear to ear!! You like?? “Yeah too right I like!!” His dad didn’t like the price tag!!! :ROFLMAO:

Well, I bought 2 sheets of Rhyzer FIRE, one of Joola‘s newest rubbers. which have a nice grippy top sheet, 45 degree sponge, not too hard not too soft and the sponge ain’t as bouncy as R45/48. I stuck these onto a BTY Maze Magic blade. He has played a couple of training sessions, spin levels are now much better, it’s also not that fast a set up, but it has enough bounce so he doesn’t feel he has to put in loads of effort but not enough bounce that it’s easy speed, he has to work a little harder than he would with R45/48. very controllable rubber as well
I was quite surprised with the set up when I had a quick hit!! Thankfully the EJ in me was satisfied with that quick hit!!!

So this fits him nicely and with what NL was saying earlier.
same rubbers both sides, capable of producing high spin levels WITH GOOD technique. Easy to control, not too bouncy, speed can be fast WITH GOOD technique
 

Brs

This user has no status.

Brs

This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2015
1,111
1,383
2,618
Hi Brs,
Did you play with Rakza Z for a while?
No, I never used any of the hard ESN stuff. I'm too weak for hard sponge, it does nothing for me.

My rubber ejing is pretty limited. I played T05/fx/80/fx for years. Then G1 for years, wasted a year on battle 2 and various hurricanes boosted and not, and now circled back to rozena.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
I can see I need to be far more nuanced in my approach to reading the ball, rather than just using the routine of attacking then pushing etc. In general for my game I see the real benefits of watching the ball closely.
While you almost never really know what is on the ball until you play it and compare the effect to what you thought would happen, you should have some general idea if you remember what you did prior and how what your opponent did prior affected the ball. In fact, very often, inverted rallies are usually building up in spin after the serve, it's just that build up isn't massive at the beginner level, but it is really insane what happens even at the higher intermediate levels as each stroke adds more rotation on top of what the last stroke did by borrowing what the last stroke did and adding something to it (the pro level is really ridiculous sometimes though there speed dominates). Sometimes, my training partner likes to tell me that he didn't do anything, it was all my spin coming back to me. So getting a good feel for how your prior shot impacts the quality of the ball you receive is something many people don't think through much, usually until they play pips, where they are forced to adjust outside a range they find intuitive. But it is something that you have to be aware of to some degree.

I honestly don't think I ever fully adjusted to pips. But I developed my own weapons to make sure that I didn't lose to a player just because they were using pips. Your body builds an intuition to it with practice as long as you both force yourself to adapt and let it adapt. Even if you are losing a match, you will tend to play the pips better as the match goes on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrighty67
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jun 2022
375
274
908
Good point, NextLevel.
What nobody was able to tell me is if the spin on the ball really accumulates infinitely.

So if you return a backspin serve with heavy backspin and the opponent pushes it back (without brush but just a lay off type of push). Will the ball have the same amount of spin that i put in or more or less ? I would estimate that it should have a little less, since in the end the balls rotation changes direction on the opponents push and not all energy can be conserved and given back to the ball flying to my direction.

This is of course a serious topic considering my own tactics.

Either i return a serve with heavy backspin, which my opponent either
option a) tries too loop and hence puts it in the net and i receive a point
option b) simply pushes back and stops me from being able to loop or flip it, due to the high amount of backspin

I have one other player in the club who does regularily do a heavy backspin chop/push on the table and i noticed that i need to be very carefull, because even holding the racket in the flypath with a very open blade will have the ball bounce quickly back to the opponent and any kind of power you would put into it would result in the ball flying off.

i noticed the same a few times being done by opponents, but i always thought they were just too heavy handed at pushing.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jun 2018
612
347
2,565
So much good stuff in this thread - its a really good and useful read!

I think they key is to try and practice and play against LP as much as you can as the return can vary so much, depending on spin, pace depth on the table etc.

I was similar I think to you @Wrighty67 in that I was alway apprehensive against playing against them and not having a positive mindset (the worst combo in table tennis - not being confident in your strokes or play).

The last two leagues (1 summer and 1 winter) I have had an older guy with LP ox one side and a good hit on the other side as a team mate. So I get to practice against him regularly.

We played the top of the league team a little while back who had a LP ox player in the side and I beat him comfortably. His team mates said after that you could tell you practice against LP as you made it look much easier than we do against him, and they are both far better players than me! Which was quite a confidence boost (and a lot of ranking points as hes far higher ranked)

Try to keep it as simple as possible, as like I think @NextLevel or @Der_Echte mentioned, over thinking too much during play is a recipe for disaster especially with pips. Push one spin one has always been a tactic that works - but if you do spin, spin with quality. I think half baked shots against LP players get punished much more readily than other techniques. But heavy spin either way can be hard to control for LP ox especially. I think it can be easy to think "ok I will play flat and not spin much so i dont get crazy shots back" but its counter productive as you don't play your usual shots - if you get what I mean?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jun 2018
612
347
2,565
Ok, the first rule is to stick with whatever you are using for as long as you can. So if you are used to T05, there is no great reason to change it. It is best to change only one thing at a time. For you, I would keep the innerforce ZLC blade, but I would switch the rubber on both sides to something like Rozena or Fastarc C1 or even T80 FX on both sides. In my coaching philosophy, for an adult learner, using the same rubber on both sides is important to understand what your strokes are about. You can change much later when your technique is stable and you know exactly what each side does best. I for one, once had a much better backhand than forehand, and it was interesting that I could use faster equipment on the backhand but my forehand always suffered for it. Balance for me came much later.

Hi @NextLevel - can I ask why T80 FX, I don't know much about this rubber as I haven't seen anyone use it. Is in not faster and less spiny marginally than T05 FX for example? Just wondered if there is a reason you picked it out
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrighty67
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2022
1,166
1,008
3,686
Read 6 reviews
So much good stuff in this thread - its a really good and useful read!

I think they key is to try and practice and play against LP as much as you can as the return can vary so much, depending on spin, pace depth on the table etc.

I was similar I think to you @Wrighty67 in that I was alway apprehensive against playing against them and not having a positive mindset (the worst combo in table tennis - not being confident in your strokes or play).

The last two leagues (1 summer and 1 winter) I have had an older guy with LP ox one side and a good hit on the other side as a team mate. So I get to practice against him regularly.

We played the top of the league team a little while back who had a LP ox player in the side and I beat him comfortably. His team mates said after that you could tell you practice against LP as you made it look much easier than we do against him, and they are both far better players than me! Which was quite a confidence boost (and a lot of ranking points as hes far higher ranked)

Try to keep it as simple as possible, as like I think @NextLevel or @Der_Echte mentioned, over thinking too much during play is a recipe for disaster especially with pips. Push one spin one has always been a tactic that works - but if you do spin, spin with quality. I think half baked shots against LP players get punished much more readily than other techniques. But heavy spin either way can be hard to control for LP ox especially. I think it can be easy to think "ok I will play flat and not spin much so i dont get crazy shots back" but its counter productive as you don't play your usual shots - if you get what I mean?
That's exactly right Jammail - the apprehension and tightness is a big problem vs these guys.

The spin return is a challenge for me too, because typically I am more likely to loop than drive and so tend towards a lower start point and more of a brush - this doesn't work vs a pimples first open as it's a topspin ball I am getting and so I often overhit it.
 
This user has no status.
So much good stuff in this thread - its a really good and useful read!

I think they key is to try and practice and play against LP as much as you can as the return can vary so much, depending on spin, pace depth on the table etc.

I was similar I think to you @Wrighty67 in that I was alway apprehensive against playing against them and not having a positive mindset (the worst combo in table tennis - not being confident in your strokes or play).

The last two leagues (1 summer and 1 winter) I have had an older guy with LP ox one side and a good hit on the other side as a team mate. So I get to practice against him regularly.

We played the top of the league team a little while back who had a LP ox player in the side and I beat him comfortably. His team mates said after that you could tell you practice against LP as you made it look much easier than we do against him, and they are both far better players than me! Which was quite a confidence boost (and a lot of ranking points as hes far higher ranked)

Try to keep it as simple as possible, as like I think @NextLevel or @Der_Echte mentioned, over thinking too much during play is a recipe for disaster especially with pips. Push one spin one has always been a tactic that works - but if you do spin, spin with quality. I think half baked shots against LP players get punished much more readily than other techniques. But heavy spin either way can be hard to control for LP ox especially. I think it can be easy to think "ok I will play flat and not spin much so i dont get crazy shots back" but its counter productive as you don't play your usual shots - if you get what I mean?
Yes, you can't do half hearted shots against pips, it can backfire hard. Also imo playing flat can be even worse especially if you're used to spinning to control the trajectory because it's simply not your game. Imo the problem is that if you loop and then they chopblock it, the backspin can be very formidable, and sometimes short too (double bouncing!). If you continue to loop with heavier spin, the resulting chopblock will only get even heavier until it's impossible to loop it anymore. If you push it back you pretty much give up initiative and allow them to attack you (with LP they can attack backspin easily, or they can loop with their inverted side which they can be very good at).

My recent thoughts are also to go back to 1 topspin 1 push strategy, but instead of slow pushing (which allows it to be attacked too easily), the push has to be as high quality as possible and viewed as an attacking stroke. The way to do it is to take the ball very early with the push, increase the pace, and place it very well (pockets, corners, etc...).
I found a lot of the older LP players hate these pushes as their footwork aren't great, that reduces the quality of their next LP shot which gives you a much better time looping it hard.

I'm interested to read other people's strategies too.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Jun 2018
612
347
2,565
Yes, you can't do half hearted shots against pips, it can backfire hard. Also imo playing flat can be even worse especially if you're used to spinning to control the trajectory because it's simply not your game. Imo the problem is that if you loop and then they chopblock it, the backspin can be very formidable, and sometimes short too (double bouncing!). If you continue to loop with heavier spin, the resulting chopblock will only get even heavier until it's impossible to loop it anymore. If you push it back you pretty much give up initiative and allow them to attack you (with LP they can attack backspin easily, or they can loop with their inverted side which they can be very good at).

My recent thoughts are also to go back to 1 topspin 1 push strategy, but instead of slow pushing (which allows it to be attacked too easily), the push has to be as high quality as possible and viewed as an attacking stroke. The way to do it is to take the ball very early with the push, increase the pace, and place it very well (pockets, corners, etc...).
I found a lot of the older LP players hate these pushes as their footwork aren't great, that reduces the quality of their next LP shot which gives you a much better time looping it hard.

I'm interested to read other people's strategies too.
Yeah exactly this was what I was trying to convey, whether attacking or pushing use quality and being dynamic/aggressive with it as you suggest.

Ive only just seen your signature :ROFLMAO:
 

Brs

This user has no status.

Brs

This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2015
1,111
1,383
2,618
One topspin one push works well vs choppers. Against LP pushblockers it works exactly until you meet one who can take your heavy topspin and block it back with light backspin or even dead. In the US usually ~1800 rating. When you push that you are fucked.
 
This user has no status.
One topspin one push works well vs choppers. Against LP pushblockers it works exactly until you meet one who can take your heavy topspin and block it back with light backspin or even dead. In the US usually ~1800 rating. When you push that you are fucked.
It's trivial to push high quality (low, deep with heavy spin) against light backspin or dead ....if you pop it up it means you misread the spin.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
That's exactly right Jammail - the apprehension and tightness is a big problem vs these guys.

The spin return is a challenge for me too, because typically I am more likely to loop than drive and so tend towards a lower start point and more of a brush - this doesn't work vs a pimples first open as it's a topspin ball I am getting and so I often overhit it.
Do you loop topspin as well?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2022
1,166
1,008
3,686
Read 6 reviews
Do you loop topspin as well?
Not intentionally, but often when with my coach he will observe that I am dropping the bat head and starting too low on both BH & FH side - I have to work very hard (especially on BH) to start the swing from belly height and not hip height. This means too many top edges and often late to the ball.

Over the time I have been playing I have internalised that lower start, higher spin loops are inherently safer for me - which is not correct vs topspin or flat...

Below is a video of my coach (Matt) and covers most of the FH strokes I am aiming to replicate - loop & topspin but with a real focus on spin and good contact;

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
Hi @NextLevel - can I ask why T80 FX, I don't know much about this rubber as I haven't seen anyone use it. Is in not faster and less spiny marginally than T05 FX for example? Just wondered if there is a reason you picked it out
T80FX is a solid rubber. usually well respected in the backhand and I have seen guys use it on both sides of a ZLF blade. I think BRS used it ages ago and I know one guy who used to drive me nuts who used it on both sides too. Ultimately I wasn't really caring about the specific rubber, I just wanted Wrighty to go to something softer, especially on the forehand - all his stuff is way too hard. And I think it helps to play with the same rubber on both sides even if might not be best for your game, it helps you understand your strokes in similar ways. If something is working on your backhand, find out reasonable ideas to repeat on the other side. Or vice versa. You have to account for the body work but it still helps.

He can always go back after he is convinced he can spin with the softer rubbers and he is convinced that he is trying to *spin* harder but the ball is not accepting his attempts to get more quality. I would argue though that there are many USATT 2000 level players who do fine with Rozena and the FX rubbers so if he is comfortable spinning in both sides, he may never have to change.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
Not intentionally, but often when with my coach he will observe that I am dropping the bat head and starting too low on both BH & FH side - I have to work very hard (especially on BH) to start the swing from belly height and not hip height. This means too many top edges and often late to the ball.

Over the time I have been playing I have internalised that lower start, higher spin loops are inherently safer for me - which is not correct vs topspin or flat...

Below is a video of my coach (Matt) and covers most of the FH strokes I am aiming to replicate - loop & topspin but with a real focus on spin and good contact;

So the reason I ask is to make the point that the problem isn't the fact you loop, it is the fact that you would not play topspin the same way so your problem is that you are applying a backspin stroke to a topspins ball. This is more of the adaptation you have to do.


The biggest part of the adaptation in my experience is that you need to adjust less with the arm and more with the body if you are capable. I tend to get my body lower for backspin balls and stay largely upright for topspins balls. Keeping the same bent elbow feeling all the way through (though I straighten out on forehand a bit). That way you start lower but the swing mostly feels the same. Or you train yourself to hit one backspin and one topspins ball back to back while back swinging to different positions for each one. Dropping the racket on fifth ball is a rookie error on third and fifth ball combinations so that is how it is usually trained away but the bottom line is you need to continually adapt your stroke to the ball and think about the stroke as the solution for the ball. Not something you just do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wrighty67
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2022
1,166
1,008
3,686
Read 6 reviews
T80FX is a solid rubber. usually well respected in the backhand and I have seen guys use it on both sides of a ZLF blade. I think BRS used it ages ago and I know one guy who used to drive me nuts who used it on both sides too. Ultimately I wasn't really caring about the specific rubber, I just wanted Wrighty to go to something softer, especially on the forehand - all his stuff is way too hard. And I think it helps to play with the same rubber on both sides even if might not be best for your game, it helps you understand your strokes in similar ways. If something is working on your backhand, find out reasonable ideas to repeat on the other side. Or vice versa. You have to account for the body work but it still helps.

He can always go back after he is convinced he can spin with the softer rubbers and he is convinced that he is trying to *spin* harder but the ball is not accepting his attempts to get more quality. I would argue though that there are many USATT 2000 level players who do fine with Rozena and the FX rubbers so if he is comfortable spinning in both sides, he may never have to change.
Do you feel it's more critical to be softer on FH right now? (I have either my T05 / MX-P or s sheet of T64FX for that side) whereas on the BH I can choose either a sheet of Rozena or T80FX)

My thinking was either MX-P/T05 FH and Rozena BH or T64FX FH and T80FX BH
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
Do you feel it's more critical to be softer on FH right now? (I have either my T05 / MX-P or s sheet of T64FX for that side) whereas on the BH I can choose either a sheet of Rozena or T80FX)

My thinking was either MX-P/T05 FH and Rozena BH or T64FX FH and T80FX BH
Whatever you choose you need the same thing on both sides.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,585
18,149
45,464
Read 17 reviews
Good point, NextLevel.
What nobody was able to tell me is if the spin on the ball really accumulates infinitely.

So if you return a backspin serve with heavy backspin and the opponent pushes it back (without brush but just a lay off type of push). Will the ball have the same amount of spin that i put in or more or less ? I would estimate that it should have a little less, since in the end the balls rotation changes direction on the opponents push and not all energy can be conserved and given back to the ball flying to my direction.

This is of course a serious topic considering my own tactics.

Either i return a serve with heavy backspin, which my opponent either
option a) tries too loop and hence puts it in the net and i receive a point
option b) simply pushes back and stops me from being able to loop or flip it, due to the high amount of backspin

I have one other player in the club who does regularily do a heavy backspin chop/push on the table and i noticed that i need to be very carefull, because even holding the racket in the flypath with a very open blade will have the ball bounce quickly back to the opponent and any kind of power you would put into it would result in the ball flying off.

i noticed the same a few times being done by opponents, but i always thought they were just too heavy handed at pushing.
The accumulation is not infinite, no, it depends on both the serve and the receive or the incoming and out coming stroke. Of course a receiver can add spin, but a receiver can also kill spin - it is more common though to use the incoming energy to control the ball and add something it.

There were players I used to struggle with when I didn't spin because they didn't spin either, and I was used to people spinning to me and then I would use that spin to block and flat hit. Then when I started spinning against those players, I could see that if I put in a lazy flat ball, then the next ball was harder to attack, but if I kept good rotation, I could play the next shot more easily with a flat stroke or even a re-spin of a certain kind. But I learned as an adult, I find it hard to see spin beyond one or two strokes, so I just try to make sure I set up for the serve/receive and third to fifth ball right. Beyond that, for me, it is all luck. :D.

But the main point is to not act as if what you are sending out has nothing to do with what is coming in just because you are used to playing within a certain range. Playing pips is what forces most players to take the problem seriously, when it is a general problem in table tennis with all these high powered rubbers and rackets.

PS: Yes, really heavy chop generated mostly by the chopper, usually from inverted or short pips, shots off your racket - you can even pop it off the table sometimes as well as into the net.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jk1980
Top