How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[Der_Echte]

also i am wondering if i were cementing a particular skill during training (e.g. waiting for the ball to come longer or drop more before looping that half-long ball) and can execute successfully 7 out of ten times

The times I said (a lot) to wait for the ball to come some more and drop... it was because the ball did not yet reach the strike zone. This happened a lot when the ball was going only 3-6 inches past the endline and did not have a lot of energy.

I do not feel the position LDM7 established on those ball was terrible. It is just given that position, he needed to wait some more for the ball to get to the strike zone.

It is also possible that LDM7 could have gotten closer to the endline with his position (and got waist down a little more)... if he did that, then the good part of the strike zone would have been when the ball fell to an inch over table height... and that is the height LDM7 WANTED to strike the ball.

... but given his initial position and striking the ball at that point (too far in front) it was conditions to make a lot of misses when going for anything more than 15% power.

Two things to do for those low energy balls that do not clear the endline by much... get closer to table (get hip down and left leg a little under the table... or set the position LDM7 did and let the ball drop some more (and travel a little more horizontally.

The advantages of getting closer are that you can use more forward swing, strike ball when higher, go for more pace and still land it... you give opponent less time... you have a little more angle to work with.

The advantage of LDM7's initial position not right up on table is you let the ball drop... and in order to make a proper spin on that ball, you have to GET DOWN and explode up... that kind of habit usually gets you in the habit of spin production. You also have a little more time to see the ball and be ready.

Setting position a little closer to the table is probably the more versatile option for that low energy ball - you can go for heavy spin or you can go for a fast loop.

 

[Der_Echte]

There were also a few moments where LDM7 discovered how to "approach" the ball to set his position. Several times, LDM7 set his position and wanted to hit the ball a certain direction, but the foot position he ultimately ended up with took away any leverage. I told him to circle the ball a little more to get outside it a little (the end up in an open stance) when he did that, he had a lot of leverage and could hit that shot easily.

 

[Der_Echte]

In every shot, one must "see" the opponents impact and quickly discern (almost immediately) at a subconscious level what the opponent did to the abll, so you can know where it is going with what and when and how... so you can decide what shot to play, how to play it, and set position and leverage... then you have to be able to judge when the ball will come to your strike zone (assuming you set position correctly with balance and leverage)

This happens on EVERY SHOT in table tennis and I frequently say this publicly.

The better a player gets at doing this, the better a player's level gets. This has a lot of merit as a point of focus for training... but adult minds do not work in so simple of a way. We have to understand process, see it, feel it, get it corrected and do it more.

LDM7 is now beginning to discover how to see the ball on his end when setting the zone and waiting for the ball to get to the strike zone. The reading of impact will take more time... it takes time for all us adult learners to develop that better.

 

[Der_Echte]

The League Round Robins are not the pinnacle of competition, but are certainly an elevated competitive match opportunity where one can see if and how the training is paying off.. they are not the end of the world if one does not succeed to the level one wants and are not the summit if one does succeed... but they are telling and good data points along ones development.

Improvement in training does not necessarily immediately show in competitive matches, especially the ones under pressure, but better process, better vision, better discernment of ball, better setting of position and strike zone go a LONG way in matches.

What LDM7 is improving upon will at some point clearly show, I do not know if it is this month of spring. We may be surprised, but what he is improving upon is going to show results in improved performance in the future.

 

[Der_Echte]

I would encourage many to comment... my thoughts about LDM7 doing RR whether his newer skills will translate to improved match play at this point are that in boxing, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the nose.

RR success and failure can give many valuable data points if one goes at it with a decent attitude.

The ones to REALLY prepare for weeks out are the competitions you hold important... a major tourney like NATIONALS, LA Open, Meiklejohn Seniors, TEAMS... those I advocate getting body physical and mental prepared and peaking at time of competition.

RR and league is not really like that... it is pretty much show up and do it... but it is still competition and can tell you things.

 

[LDM7]

sry der i made a deal out of some things last night

at this moment of my life, pinga ponga is important to me

i was feeling anxious about jan league play and worried about not able (or ready) to perform to at least my training capabilities

suhir told me i played terribly at doubles friday night, and not so good habits played out

he said if i continue down this path, i'd go backwards and stuck at my level ... e.g. george, steve G

I AM PUTTING IN WAY TOO MUCH WORK TO STAY AT A LEVEL

 

[LDM7]

after perusing your comments, i affirm one of your strength is setting proper expectation

i think i judge myself hard

i feel pressure (self induced) to be at a certain level

it's time to decompress with some goof-off time 🏓

 

[Der_Echte]

after perusing your comments, i affirm one of your strength is setting proper expectation

i think i judge myself hard

i feel pressure (self induced) to be at a certain level

it's time to decompress with some goof-off time 🏓

LDM7, you would pop your eyes out if you saw and heard the things I said about myself and how hard I was and still am on myself.

A reasonable person would see Der_Echte in his TT formative years and properly deduct that Der_Echte being too hard on himself was helping nothing.

 

[Der_Echte]

i was feeling anxious about jan league play and worried about not able (or ready) to perform to at least my training capabilities

You have legitimate concerns. For you stated obvious reason that you put in so much work and expense, you should see a gain, not backwards trend.

Players should understand, and I try to be clear about it at all stages is that progression in TT does not follow any exact path or ratio. (although in general you advance more when you do more work).

Sometimes advancing is to address a weak area with effective solutions and habits, but they take a long time to get to subconscious instinctive level where you perform better where you can objectively measure (matches vs same opponents)

Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles can see you have clearly changed in a positive way so clearly like noonday sun. Ali (a former national player for those who do not know him) saw this right away after he came back from a few months away and was impressed. He could tell right away... and that was only after so many weeks of work on your new commitment to improve.

That doesn't mean you were gunna dominate the same crowd you were even with. That will come. Still, you showed positive results vs players who I would say play 2-3 levels better than you (Sam is one example, so is the other guy in the vid series you posted)

Even for myself, I am CERTAIN my skills in TT are better now, but I bled away 3-4 levels of ratings points the last 1.5 years. Coach Avi had a 15 minute hit with me Tuesday and if you ask him, i showed him better skill in serve receive and rally he did not see from me vs him. TT can work that way. If your fundamentals improve, your level improves and it will eventually show in competition.

You can be disappointed that it didn't happen on the timeline you wanted, but you are now getting to where you can sense what is happening with you. No matter the end result if you do RR, look for HOW you do stuff, PROCESS, decisions, approach, mental performance, adhesion to fundamentals, footwork, timing, how you are setting up shots and rallies... you show improvement in those kind of things you won. That is the kind of good signs you see and you KNOW your level is going to go up in competition.

 

[Der_Echte]

it's time to decompress with some goof-off time 🏓

It is totally ironic that nearly ALL of my improvement sub 1800 to near 2100 happened in a 2 year span where I did ZERO lessons or structured practice and mostly goofed off or helped out others at the club... and only did that 2x a week plus 1x a week Russian Church, which was enjoying games or goof off.

Of course, this was made possible by a HUGE improvement in the mental aspect of TT, but I was still developing better timing of my impact zone and feel for the ball in this period.

 

[IB66]

To whom it may concern:

on multiple occasions Der comment my BH loop (as you always do, every ball 😠) ohhh, that thing had some side-spin to it

... to which i say my standard line "i promise you it's not intentional ... (YET)"

i am thinking now i would like to know (intentionally) how to hit a str8 BH loop and another with more side-spin to it ...

what are your thots?

LDM7

Hi LDM7

Der explained in a later post about how the side spin is happening. The ball was slightly to the inside of the ESZ, which I take to mean slightly towards the right side or hip. He also mentioned that you can do other things with bat orientation, swing , wrist etc
I have a tendency to leave my wrist behind slightly when playing BH topspin, I roll my wrist over the top right side, so I impact the ball on the RH side slightly. I think this is the opposite of the side you are putting on the ball.
So a good training aid to get is one of those ‘Spin Trainers’ . They clamp to the table, have a flexible shaft with a ball fixed on the end, via a spindle, so the ball can be hit and spun. The spindle acts as the ‘axis of spin’.
Because its flexible you can adjust the orientation of the axis of spin. So you can set the trainer up, take up your position to play a BH topspin with the ball in the optimal position within the ESZ.
Then goof around with it !!!
if you set the axis of spin to match a ‘straight’ spinning topspin, if you hit it correctly the ball will spin for a long time, if you are slightly off, it won’t spin for as long.
(it also helps with brushing the ball)
you can then change the axis of spin orientation slightly so that the optimal impact position on the ball for getting the most spin changes. So you can set it so there is some left side spin on the ball, or some right side spin!!
Then you can play around with your wrist, rolling the wrist and therefore bat over the left side or right side.
You can play around with the position of the ball within the ESZ, play a ‘standard’ straight top spin and see what happens, with the ball slightly on the inside, as DER explained you wold have to change the axis of spin position from the ‘straight’ top spin position to slightly left top spin position.
These ‘spin trainers’ are overlooked in general, basically used for teaching brushing the ball, but they can be so much more!!

Well I hope I got it right about which side spin you are putting on the ball !!

 

[IB66]

after perusing your comments, i affirm one of your strength is setting proper expectation

i think i judge myself hard

i feel pressure (self induced) to be at a certain level

it's time to decompress with some goof-off time 🏓

LDM7,

We are similar in that we are ‘too hard’ on ourselves. Expectations are high, maybe too high!!
This is GOOD!!! it shows your attitude is STRONG, but remember to also balance things out, Take time to reflect on the GOOD things as well.
Take ‘being at a certain level’ with a pinch of salt, if you are judging your ‘level’ by results against players you want to be victorious against, bear in mind that they could also be training and improving!!! So things can become ‘blurred’ it’s not a cut and dry thing.
Take great pride in the comments from DER & Ali, (who was in a good position to ‘see’ your improvement after being away for a couple of months).

With the start of the next round of matches approaching, try to be relaxed and totally concentrated.

I received a book at Xmas, Table Tennis with Timo Boll, written by Berne-Ulrich Gross and Timo.
I’m only thru a couple of chapters, but so far the stand out info is that us amateur’s don’t even remotely start a point correctly!!! we don’t take enough time between points, we don’t visualise the next point to be played, we don’t have a routine to suit what needs to be achieved.
so wiping hand by the net, checking the rubber for dust, bouncing the ball on the table etc are done to give you the time to prepare for the next point, what serve to execute, what receive to ‘expect’ and so on. Then the serve preparation, let’s say bouncing the ball on the table as you get in serve stance, then as soon as that ball goes into the palm of your hand, that’s the trigger for TOTAL CONCENTRATION. all else if put to the back of your mind, total focus on the serve and point to be played. If a stare could kill, that TT ball would crumple to dust in Mr Bolls hand !!!!!!

Be happy !!!!

 

[LDM7]

IB66,

what are you doing?

yah, you got the side spin correct

since it's my BH cork screwing, i am thinking der means my ball jumped across his body a bit (rather than str8 at him), from his right towards his left

btw that's a lot of reading and thinking to get the gist of it all

tonight's church session was a bit chaotic, i didn't get to ask him in person, i will next time and hopefully i can BH loop with a bit of corkscrew intentionally one day

i've always wondered about that spindle thing ma jigger, i've seen it on aliexpress for under ten US

i am going to get one to play around with

i've also seen a video where some1 hits a FH loop fed from the robot then do a BH loop with the spin trainer, then FH loop and BH loop ... etc

i suspect it will also improve my brushing of the ball ... we'll see

can you clarify what you mean: "you can then change the axis of spin orientation slightly so that the optimal impact position on the ball for getting the most spin changes. So you can set it so there is some left side spin on the ball"

i thot the axis is vertical 90 degree up from the table?

 

[LDM7]

LDM7,

Be happy !!!!

thanks for the reminder mate

there are a lot of ppl that would happily trade places with me

when i consider my fortunes, i am grateful

TT is jst a game, recreation and exercise, and allows me to time-out from life's responsibilities while hitting that little white ball back and forth

Can you say Pinga Ponga 😂

 

[OldUser]

UP...

 

[IB66]

IB66,

what are you doing?

yah, you got the side spin correct

since it's my BH cork screwing, i am thinking der means my ball jumped across his body a bit (rather than str8 at him), from his right towards his left

btw that's a lot of reading and thinking to get the gist of it all

tonight's church session was a bit chaotic, i didn't get to ask him in person, i will next time and hopefully i can BH loop with a bit of corkscrew intentionally one day

i've always wondered about that spindle thing ma jigger, i've seen it on aliexpress for under ten US

i am going to get one to play around with

i've also seen a video where some1 hits a FH loop fed from the robot then do a BH loop with the spin trainer, then FH loop and BH loop ... etc

i suspect it will also improve my brushing of the ball ... we'll see

can you clarify what you mean: "you can then change the axis of spin orientation slightly so that the optimal impact position on the ball for getting the most spin changes. So you can set it so there is some left side spin on the ball"

i thot the axis is vertical 90 degree up from the table?

Hi LDM7,

Everyone has seen or may have owned a Globe of the Earth. The poles, north and south are not vertical there is a tilt, the axis of rotation of the Earth is tilted at about 23 degrees away from vertical.
So if you tried to spin the globe, to get maximum efficiency your impact point would be parallel to the axis of rotation/spin so your bat would be 23 degrees away from vertical.
If you take the globe as a TT ball it would have side top or side bottom when bouncing on to a horizontal table, depending if you chop down or brush up

with the spin trainer gizmo you can adjust the position of the axis. Neat / pure top spin or back spin means that the axis would be horizontal. Cut down / chop for back spin, brush up for top spin.
pure side spin and the axis is vertical.

It’s sort of hard to describe in writing!!

 

[NextLevel]

I can't resist pointing out:

a half long ball by definition has a reasonable possibility of bouncing twice inside the table, and in consequence has a peak bounce that occurs well inside the table, and that peak height if its a decent serve should be not much more than 7 inches...
Then it seems that waiting for the ball to come longer in order to loop it is evidence of woolly thinking.

the ball may double bounce or be finger breakingly close to the edge, so the shot/opportuiity to look for should be from the inside the table toolbox of soft flips, pushes, and punches rather than looping

Wooly thinking is particularly common when enthusiastically learning a topic whose subtleties are hard to capture in words, especially when level appropriateness is involved. A limited feedback forum like the internet discussion makes it harder to tease out what is really meant vs in-person coaching. But sometimes, people do use confuse the phrases short, half-long, long and deep and can mix up any of the the consecutive ones with overlap, though the level can make the distinction clearer. I suspect when ldm7 is speaking half long he is tending towards long since he is a 1300 level player and when you are speaking half long, you are more towards short since you are 2200+ level player.

 

[LDM7]

look for HOW you do stuff, PROCESS, decisions, approach, mental performance, adhesion to fundamentals, footwork, timing, how you are setting up shots and rallies... you show improvement in those kind of things you won. That is the kind of good signs you see and you KNOW your level is going to go up in competition.

the most profound rhetoric i've heard from in a while ... and trust me, there's a lot of mambo jumbo coming thy way

in truth you've said these to me before, somehow did not strike accord

til today, they fit today and i see differently

just need to figure out a way to give the monkey a task to keep him quite

Let's Do Work Der 🏓

 

[Der_Echte]

It is a fault of Der_Echte... I articulate too much, sometimes too long, sometimes too often... but I have a purpose and objective doing it that way though.

So many years ago Next Level regretted he did not have his camera rolling when I had said something relevant that NL had been seeking for a while to know... I totally forget what it was... prolly something about impact dynamics.

LDM7 is beginning to get it a lot more about setting and controlling the strike zone. It will revolutionized his ball striking down the line.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[NextLevel]

sry der i made a deal out of some things last night

at this moment of my life, pinga ponga is important to me

i was feeling anxious about jan league play and worried about not able (or ready) to perform to at least my training capabilities

suhir told me i played terribly at doubles friday night, and not so good habits played out

he said if i continue down this path, i'd go backwards and stuck at my level ... e.g. george, steve G

I AM PUTTING IN WAY TOO MUCH WORK TO STAY AT A LEVEL

DerEchte warned you a little bit so let me warn you a bit more. No one knows what the barriers to their getting better are in a mental sport like table tennis until they hit and surmount the wall. Sometimes the level is there but there are always gaps to be exploited by opponents and good coaches. And there are gaps in perception that you can't close until you have the experience to close them.

It takes about 6 months beyond when you trained for you to become your new self and to be comfortable being your new self. You may be putting in the work but your body needs time to build out the circuitry and make it stable and consistent. And then make it meta cognitively stable so you know how to adjust when things are not going well. Even just knowing how to get the best out of yourself with how you frame a situation you are in only comes from experience with failure and success.

Every adult learner who has ever chased a rating goal has stories of struggle and doubt. The body is usually self regulating in that as you get better at TT, your goals become greedier. This is normal. But the learning cycle is not as straightforward as you might think.

You should not assume that hard work pays off tangibly or quickly in TT. In fact, it is not uncommon after a period of hard work and training to suck for 3 months in various ways but to have all come together with a special performance in month 4 or 5. This is true at all levels, even the pros. The pros though are usually used to something like struggling at some point, so a lot comes down to managing expectations. But it is Cory easy for amateurs to misconceive their improvement curves for many reasons.

Long story short: don't use your hard work to put pressure on yourself to achieve certain results other than to learn because there is no evidence of improvement in TT apart from the results. Just play actual matches and use the feedback from those matches to continue to improve. TT improvement can be a door with 44 locks and you only open 43 and you complain because the door is not opening. But difference between the person who opened 43 and gave up and the person who opened 44 is sometimes that that one used the unopened lock as information and the other used it as test of their self-worth. The former is usually helpful, the latter can be pretty dangerous.