How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

When my favorite wife asked me if I had fun Pinga Ponga all day today, I replied fun is a byproduct of getting better for me

It is fun for me to handle a fast block back at me (off of my loop ) and not end the rally
It is fun for me to be able to get back into position to loop a BH after a FH takes me wide (not piss that point away)
It is ultra fun for me to start attacking longer serves off of both wings
It is enlightening for me to use spinny balls to set up my Shaka-Laka FH
I am so happy I am starting to strike my FHs with variety (timing, spin, pace, placement)
Finally it is nirvana for me to experience how as little as stepping in 6 ~ 9” closer to table-end allows me to establish a great ESZ

In all I like putting in the hours, to gain competence & confidence seeing them balls land over & over

Thank you @Der_Echte for being dependable, available and capable of taking me to the NextLevel (pun intended)

I was super charged by your ending comment “as your training session quality keeps going up, at some point all the skills will catch up in matches”

Til’ that time … LDM7 out

 

[IB66]

 

[Der_Echte]

Over the months and weeks, when LDM7 is trying to FH or BH topspin underspin or deadish balls that come 6-12 inches past the endline, LDM7 would miss a lot of them, mostly out. I would tell him to wait for the ball some more. (He was positioned 1.5-2 feet behind the endline) Sometimes I told him he could set his position a little closer to the table. Sometimes, I told him he could do either. It was frustrating to him, since he wasn't adjusting, neither closer position or waiting on the ball (but ball would then be too low for him to loop comfortably)

Last week, he got the revelations about how his position and setting of the strike zone gave him leverage to make stronger shots with higher landing percentage. it was pretty much like a thing of magic. A profound discovery.

Today, I walked to the other side of the table and asked him to show me his adjustment. I suggested that for balls to his FH, he could step in with his left foot to go near the center T of the table under the endline and lean forward some... this set the strike zone several inches behind the table... so now when the ball cleared the endline, he was impacting the ball on his loops there. He was striking the ball while it was still above or at least at table height, which gave him confidence to go for the shot... which he went for a LOT of them and landed nearly ALL of them.

He re-discovered the adjustment to hit down short side of table on FH (allow ball to come deep into strike zone or rotate waist back some to move the strike zone back)... He went down the line with power on those.

On BH, he did a similar thing. I showed him he could step with left foot to the left of the corner and near endline area (which now give him open stance) and that moved the middle of his strike zone closer to endline... and he landed 90% plus of BH openers. I showed him also he could move his right foot forward a little (6-12 inches) and that got his zone close to endline... he would then need to push off with right foot at or after impact to get back to open stance.

These adjustments were a game changer for him.

He had also asked how to handle the ball if he attacked strongly and it got blocked back FAST. I told him to get the bat to the bounce (or if away from table to just get bat out and control rebound with grip (soft for slower rebound higher chance to land - firmer for faster rebound) He handled nearly EVERY fast block I gave him.

This was also a game changer. Rare on a night to come away with two game changers. Lookout on some vids down the line, he might look to be a little more aggressive than you saw him.

 

[IB66]

Over the months and weeks, when LDM7 is trying to FH or BH topspin underspin or deadish balls that come 6-12 inches past the endline, LDM7 would miss a lot of them, mostly out. I would tell him to wait for the ball some more. (He was positioned 1.5-2 feet behind the endline) Sometimes I told him he could set his position a little closer to the table. Sometimes, I told him he could do either. It was frustrating to him, since he wasn't adjusting, neither closer position or waiting on the ball (but ball would then be too low for him to loop comfortably)

Last week, he got the revelations about how his position and setting of the strike zone gave him leverage to make stronger shots with higher landing percentage. it was pretty much like a thing of magic. A profound discovery.

Today, I walked to the other side of the table and asked him to show me his adjustment. I suggested that for balls to his FH, he could step in with his left foot to go near the center T of the table under the endline and lean forward some... this set the strike zone several inches behind the table... so now when the ball cleared the endline, he was impacting the ball on his loops there. He was striking the ball while it was still above or at least at table height, which gave him confidence to go for the shot... which he went for a LOT of them and landed nearly ALL of them.

He re-discovered the adjustment to hit down short side of table on FH (allow ball to come deep into strike zone or rotate waist back some to move the strike zone back)... He went down the line with power on those.

On BH, he did a similar thing. I showed him he could step with left foot to the left of the corner and near endline area (which now give him open stance) and that moved the middle of his strike zone closer to endline... and he landed 90% plus of BH openers. I showed him also he could move his right foot forward a little (6-12 inches) and that got his zone close to endline... he would then need to push off with right foot at or after impact to get back to open stance.

These adjustments were a game changer for him.

He had also asked how to handle the ball if he attacked strongly and it got blocked back FAST. I told him to get the bat to the bounce (or if away from table to just get bat out and control rebound with grip (soft for slower rebound higher chance to land - firmer for faster rebound) He handled nearly EVERY fast block I gave him.

This was also a game changer. Rare on a night to come away with two game changers. Lookout on some vids down the line, he might look to be a little more aggressive than you saw him.

Interesting for the FH to step in with the left foot for FH v backspin.
I’ll post a couple of pictures of how Mr Boll does it, being a lefty, he steps in with left foot, so for us righties that would be right foot.

 

[IB66]

There’s a couple of types-
1) parallel FH topspin v backspin with one leg forward
2) diagonal FH slower spinny topspin v backspin

 

[LDM7]

Interesting for the FH to step in with the left foot for FH v backspin.
I’ll post a couple of pictures of how Mr Boll does it, being a lefty, he steps in with left foot, so for us righties that would be right foot.

when a rightie serves (e.g. BH dTL) to my wide FH, the drill was to move my left leg at or pass the center-T, the stance then = more open, improved leverage & closer to ESZ

the sensation to whip that ball FH dTL was limited successful yesterday ... although ones that landed made so much sense

i think the context was when i posed the question of how to strike the ball dTL instead of cross-court (already competent) to be less predictable ... der?

 

[LDM7]

IB66;

Hey ahh IB66, for this slow but steady across the pond ... what am I suppose to get out of these centerfold pics? lol 😆

 

[IB66]

when a rightie serves (e.g. BH dTL) to my wide FH, the drill was to move my left leg at or pass the center-T, the stance then = more open, improved leverage & closer to ESZ

the sensation to whip that ball FH dTL was limited successful yesterday ... although ones that landed made so much sense

i think the context was when i posed the question of how to strike the ball dTL instead of cross-court (already competent) to be less predictable ... der?

Hi LDM7.
Yeah opening up the body more makes it easier to hit down the line, I think I do that sometimes, but perhaps tend to use the wrist, I leave the wrist behind, so the bat faces down the line. Probably a less consistent way of doing it!! Possibly more deceptive though.
Its a habit from badminton!!!!

 

[IB66]

Hey ahh IB66, for this slow but steady across the pond ... what am I suppose to get out of these centerfold pics? lol 😆

That there are other ways of doing things!!! There’s a lot of talk about weight transfer from right to left foot (for us righties) but not all the time!! TB reports that his weight stays more on his left foot, and that his right foot sometimes lifts off the ground. As TB is a lefty it means the weight would stay more on our right foot, This is for slow spinny loop v backspin.

Another thing he does when playing a FH push is to move his index finger so it is pointing to the middle of the bat, he says he has better feel and that he can get under the ball easier. Horses for courses, but we shouldn’t get hung up on ‘this is how you hold a bat’ as it were.

 

[Der_Echte]

Interesting for the FH to step in with the left foot for FH v backspin.
I’ll post a couple of pictures of how Mr Boll does it, being a lefty, he steps in with left foot, so for us righties that would be right foot.

Think about where LDM7 was starting from and what he could possibly do to quickly get a position of leverage and set the strike zone near the endline.

Yes, I showed him to quickly step with left foot and plant. The right foot will drag and close hips some if the step gets waist too open. Think like a cross step where you are planting the left and hitting a ball on your FH... the right comes along and plants before, at, or after impact then you can push off on right foot to get back to center position. The important thing is getting that left foot to the spot and planting

The right foot does the same thing to help whip the hips on the shot and plant with weight inside right foot to help step back to middle.

The pics you showed for Boll are he is already very close to table. He doesn't need to move forward any more. LDM7 was positioned 1.5 to 2 feet behind endline. There is zero way LDM7 being positioned 1.5 - 2 feet behind endline between BH corner and center T is gunna take a step with right foot and get into position to make a play on a ball coming 6 inches long unless LDM was GUMBY with 5 foot long legs.

 

[Der_Echte]

when a rightie serves (e.g. BH dTL) to my wide FH, the drill was to move my left leg at or pass the center-T, the stance then = more open, improved leverage & closer to ESZ

the sensation to whip that ball FH dTL was limited successful yesterday ... although ones that landed made so much sense

i think the context was when i posed the question of how to strike the ball dTL instead of cross-court (already competent) to be less predictable ... der?

Yes. LDM7 was asking for a way to get to a position of leverage and position to set the strike zone and orientation of strike down the FH short side of table.

I also reminded him of his recently learned adjustment of how to pull the non-hitting hand and arm inward to initiate a shoulder rotation before the impact so that now the strike orientation is Cross Court... which is SO DAMN EVIL the opponent never sees it coming.

 

[LDM7]

That there are other ways of doing things!!! There’s a lot of talk about weight transfer from right to left foot (for us righties) but not all the time!! TB reports that his weight stays more on his left foot, and that his right foot sometimes lifts off the ground. As TB is a lefty it means the weight would stay more on our right foot, This is for slow spinny loop v backspin.

Another thing he does when playing a FH push is to move his index finger so it is pointing to the middle of the bat, he says he has better feel and that he can get under the ball easier. Horses for courses, but we shouldn’t get hung up on ‘this is how you hold a bat’ as it were.

sometimes timing is interesting ... i am working on being deliberate & more intentional on my slow, spinny loops and here you provide pics & clarification on how TB does it. Next time at the table, i am going to play around with TB version for righties

also i am working on pushes (start with a still bat), by accident i push my index finger more middle bottom side & that did give me more control or at least better feeling. Again, will experiment whether to make that a habit. And does that mean my rightie BH push would use the thumb more or more of a pinch of blade using index (top) & thumb (bottom)??

Finally drilling using a normal game format, keeping score, alternating server every two points make it less boring than just pushing back & forth ...

 

[LDM7]

LDM7 was positioned 1.5 to 2 feet behind endline. There is zero way LDM7 being positioned 1.5 - 2 feet behind endline between BH corner and center T is gunna take a step with right foot and get into position to make a play on a ball coming 6 inches long unless LDM was GUMBY with 5 foot long legs.

Ah ... i forgot one minor detail IB66 ... at the start of each service return, i was 1.5 ~ 2' from my table-end. I wanted more time to think & react (at the expense of leverage, ESZ ...)

what i realize now is about an arms length is good to start

i have a lot of work to do on service return, the most important pinga ponga skill (BRS)

 

[Der_Echte]

What I said to @Littledragonman7 was in the context of what he could do to be in position and set the strike zone on time with leverage given the starting position he was at... he had his reasons for his starting position. I told him my old-school Korean coach advocated a similar depth behind table, but at an even more extreme position at BH corner.

If LDM7 positions himself closer to the table, like a foot behind endline and not all the way to the BH corner, then he could set his position with his RIGHT foot one step. Depending on how far behind endline his foot plant is and depending on the direction his toes are when he plants, he could loop that serve that clears endline by 3-12 inches to anywhere on the table.

Being at 45 degree angle (toes point halfway to endline) he would be set to loop cross court. Planting foot with toes facing sideline opens his hips and allows him to go down the line with power and spin.

He could also plant, get hips down some, rotate on ankles to move strike zone to the rear enough to go down the line and still have that free hand arm pull in to turn shoulders and suddenly go cross court.

Where LDM7 ultimately selects his start position will depend on what he perceives as advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage of being 2 foot behind endline is you have more time to see ball, move and make a power play. A ball barely clearing endline is also good for this position in that you have to take a step to get position... and if you do that in the right time and rhythm, you have good leverage and power on your shot.

Advantage of being a little closer is that your step to the serve is small and some shots require no step to hit.

At his level, almost no one can serve short and when they try, it is 3-6 inches long. LDM7 also needs to develop ball recognition and will to attack long serves and balls in general that need to be attacked. it is a strategic development goal that will take time and improve with time.

He will need to try both positions and some others with some reps and discover for himself what can work for him. That is a thing with adults. We cannot say this is best and expect it to be so for all situations.

 

[IB66]

sometimes timing is interesting ... i am working on being deliberate & more intentional on my slow, spinny loops and here you provide pics & clarification on how TB does it. Next time at the table, i am going to play around with TB version for righties

also i am working on pushes (start with a still bat), by accident i push my index finger more middle bottom side & that did give me more control or at least better feeling. Again, will experiment whether to make that a habit. And does that mean my rightie BH push would use the thumb more or more of a pinch of blade using index (top) & thumb (bottom)??

Finally drilling using a normal game format, keeping score, alternating server every two points make it less boring than just pushing back & forth ...

Thumb position wasn't mentioned in regard to TB's FH push, so maybe it stays in 'normal' position.
For his service grip, FH pendulum and reverse pendulum ( which he uses pretty much exclusively and works on perfecting those 2 serve types, placement and variation etc, it shows you actually don't need a multitude of serve actions [tomahawk, BH serve, hook serve etc] his index finger position changes. For std pendulum his finger 'wanders' more to the top edge, for reverse pendulum it is in a similar position when he plays FH push, more to middle of bat. This is the opposite of what I 'feel' comfortable with when doing these two serve variations!!!

 

[Wrighty67]

Hey LDM7 - it's been a while since I honoured my commitment to post matches alongside yours. I had a break over Christmas as a result of some tennis elbow resulting from too much practice vs robot and serving! a fair amount of work for this match, including an hour against my coach using pimples the week before. I am thrilled to tell you I managed a 3-2 win here despite having a torrid time and finding no rhythm in the first two games. In games 3/4/5 I gradually improved and managed to get on top of his serves and keep him on the back foot. He didn't play that well but I was pleased nonetheless.My observation is mostly that, once again, I am not moving my feet enough and so am often out of position to play a good shot from the right hitting zone - so often I am trying to hit the shot before I am recovered and in position. I work so hard on this but am not unlocking it in matches.As always, any observations or advice gratefully received.Keep well all...https://youtu.be/VtLNfJNstVI

By way of an edit - I would really appreciate any feedback on how I might alter the "shape" of my FH swing to one that is less hooky - what am I doing and what can I focus on to change this swing shape?

 

[Brs]

Nice one Wrighty. You met the dreaded old long pips guy and you triumphed. It's always a goods match any time you come back from 0 - 2 down.

You won completely by your bh down the line. It's a very nice shot. And perfect vs OLPGs because he can't move to cover it and doesn't really want to play with his inverted fh anyway. You *always* play it down the line so that even he was able to move there in time during the 5th set. You adjusted well by blocking his smashes. But vs a more mobile opponent you would want to var your shot placement.

Your serves (the practice was showing) and also fh smash on high easy balls also contributed a lot to the comeback. Sadly your fh topspin wasn't very much involved. The thing about playing an OLPG is they can only defend and pick-hit if you pop up a sitter. So there isn't any rush for you to win the point. But you do want to actively do something with any knuckleballs you get off their pips. Hit it, don't let it hit you. This is where a soft and easy, consistent and well-placed fh loop is so useful. Not a killer loop, not a third ball and done. Just to take control of every point, get moderate backspin balls back, and make the OLPG move til he can't any more. This is a simple and winning strategy. You did it the harder way, full credit to you.

About hooking your forehand --- set the playback speed to .25x and watch your forehand loops at 9:28 and 9:51. It is hooky because your elbow does not open or close even slightly during the swing. It is locked and the stroke is all from your shoulder. This is kind of dangerous for your shoulder. And also inefficient for making a quality ball. If you can relax your arm and let your elbow open and close on the fh, and move your upper arm a lot less, then you will have a more standard fh topspin stroke. Shadow practice is a common recommendation for this. Or if you have a robot, set it to an slow, easy (very easy, ridiculously, painfully easy) pace, and *video yourself from the side* and watch it back every five minutes or so, until you can accurately visualize what your body is really doing real-time as you train.

People use this video a lot. And it's a good video, I mean WLQ, fh, nice shot. https://youtu.be/_ppw7NT9g1w. His elbow opens almost to 180 degrees, then closes to almost 90. His upper arm only gets a bit away from the line of hius body during the follow through. It's not useful imo to try to copy this technique exactly because
a) we are not Wang lLiqin and
b) he is standing quite a bit further from the table than you were in the match video.

But the basic operation of his arm, closed to open to closed again, that anybody can copy within their own body and technique.

 

[Wrighty67]

Nice one Wrighty. You met the dreaded old long pips guy and you triumphed. It's always a goods match any time you come back from 0 - 2 down.

You won completely by your bh down the line. It's a very nice shot. And perfect vs OLPGs because he can't move to cover it and doesn't really want to play with his inverted fh anyway. You *always* play it down the line so that even he was able to move there in time during the 5th set. You adjusted well by blocking his smashes. But vs a more mobile opponent you would want to var your shot placement.

Your serves (the practice was showing) and also fh smash on high easy balls also contributed a lot to the comeback. Sadly your fh topspin wasn't very much involved. The thing about playing an OLPG is they can only defend and pick-hit if you pop up a sitter. So there isn't any rush for you to win the point. But you do want to actively do something with any knuckleballs you get off their pips. Hit it, don't let it hit you. This is where a soft and easy, consistent and well-placed fh loop is so useful. Not a killer loop, not a third ball and done. Just to take control of every point, get moderate backspin balls back, and make the OLPG move til he can't any more. This is a simple and winning strategy. You did it the harder way, full credit to you.

About hooking your forehand --- set the playback speed to .25x and watch your forehand loops at 9:28 and 9:51. It is hooky because your elbow does not open or close even slightly during the swing. It is locked and the stroke is all from your shoulder. This is kind of dangerous for your shoulder. And also inefficient for making a quality ball. If you can relax your arm and let your elbow open and close on the fh, and move your upper arm a lot less, then you will have a more standard fh topspin stroke. Shadow practice is a common recommendation for this. Or if you have a robot, set it to an slow, easy (very easy, ridiculously, painfully easy) pace, and *video yourself from the side* and watch it back every five minutes or so, until you can accurately visualize what your body is really doing real-time as you train.

People use this video a lot. And it's a good video, I mean WLQ, fh, nice shot. https://youtu.be/_ppw7NT9g1w. His elbow opens almost to 180 degrees, then closes to almost 90. His upper arm only gets a bit away from the line of hius body during the follow through. It's not useful imo to try to copy this technique exactly because
a) we are not Wang lLiqin and
b) he is standing quite a bit further from the table than you were in the match video.

But the basic operation of his arm, closed to open to closed again, that anybody can copy within their own body and technique.

Hi Brs

Thanks very much for taking the time to watch and comment - I really appreciate it.

I agree 100% with your thoughts - I also thought I played too safe/defensively in games 1&2 and was not getting to the ball in time to topspin his serve returns instead of pushing them off the table.

My BH is a shot I have put a lot of time into and it is slowly improving - it definitely won me the match.

Re FH - that's is just the observation I was looking for but couldn't see it. Now you have pointed it out I can see it as clear as day! I either need a mirror or video or both to get some connection between what I feel and what I am doing on that side. My shoulder is tight and so is my forearm (hence the tennis elbow..)

Cheers for now and thanks again.

Peter

 

[Der_Echte]

By way of an edit - I would really appreciate any feedback on how I might alter the "shape" of my FH swing to one that is less hooky - what am I doing and what can I focus on to change this swing shape?

Hi Wrighty,

Without even looking at any vid, you get hook spin (combo of corkscrew and side with top) by getting the ball a little inside your strike zone and impacting the ball a little to the side and coming across the ball.

When you see a short vid of someone doing a straight loop, the tip of their bat will be pointed to the right side nearly parallel to the floor. On a hookshot at impact, your bat tip will be pointed towards the floor to some degree and also not totally to the side - it will point to some degree forward a little..

You hit a straight or hookshot loop depending on what you want to do, how you set position and strike zone, where in zone you impact, and your path to the ball at impact. I like hookshots. You can control incoming topspin easier and counter well.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi Wrighty,

I gotta agree with brs on your FH topspin. You are moving the lower and upper arm together like it is in full inter-axel lock 4x4 mode. At low power impacts, this isn't terrible, but when you are trying to do a FH topspin explosively like that, you are adding big time strain to your rotator cuff area. It doesn't lend to any good bat speed or control on full swings.

You will need to figure out how to use a sequence (toes, leg, waist, abs, shoulders, a little upper arm then stop/slow down, lower arm, wrist, fingers to whip bat, then fingers to grip firm at impact). That was a mouthful !! The key is to be relaxed.

You tend to tighten the back of your shoulder and try to power the ball with shoulder from a standstill. That is difficult and not so effective in generating smooth easy power.