How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[NextLevel]

I feel maybe it's often a function of me being too close to the table for a deep service return or alternatively another one I find often is I am not far enough across to the BH side for a decent topspin or block and my body is not behind the ball. Either way I am out of optimum position for the shot so need better footwork I guess.

A lot of "footwork" is really tied to prior shot choices and hence anticipation. If you find yourself out of position, the question is how you sequenced your shots and whether you prepared for the next shot possibilities based on your prior shot adequately. It is about footwork, but is it about the movement and balance aspect of footwork, or the shot anticipation and preparation aspect of footwork? They are often rightly conflated, but they are also erroneously conflated.

 

[IB66]

Hi Wrighty,

There’s ‘tension’ and ‘tension’, good tension and bad tension!!
Muscles can be tense but primed for movement and tense and block or restrict movement!!
So recognition of which is good and which is bad is the way to go!!
I suppose that being ‘relaxed’ as a whole, both body and mentally is what we aim for. Maybe there is some ‘tension’ of muscles that is actually being ‘relaxed’ and ready!!!

Sometimes when I get into a mid or away from table looping rally, my arm/shoulder just tenses up, I think that I get tense ‘mentally’ but subconsciously (because I enjoy these types of rallies!!) and this transfers to muscles!!

As part of serve or receive routine, I have been relaxing my hands, both not just racket hand, making sure my grip is nice and loose, regulating breathing, especially for serving, breathing out as I serve, this helps to release any muscle tension in upper body.

The type of breaths you take can be helpful as well, I think Carl has some good info on this.

 

[LDM7]

Brs;389329

Thinking in terms of steps is possibly unhelpful. Steps are too slow. Watch the first two points of Miyu Nagasaki serving here https://youtu.be/RjhKScoDzJQ and see how she jumps into ready position moving both feet at once. You could choose any pro and see the same thing

=> i watched the video repeatedly (tks brs) and i have to say there's a lot going on there just to be in position, well balanced to execute a quality 3rd ball after serve ... i hear shadow practice, lots of shadowing!

=> my real question = does the "jump" pertains to after service only or during the rally or return of serve also?

=> der and i have been working on my effective strike zone and i am discovering sometimes taking a step closer with my left foot helps with BH loop quality yet you pointed out above "Thinking in terms of steps is possibly unhelpful. Steps are too slow" ... could you provide further context so i gain a fuller understanding? tks man


Sorry if I am being pedantic and that is anyway what you meant. I mention it only because I used to always (and still do when I am lazy) take steps instead of hopping into ready position after serve. And I miss out on many attack chances because of it.

=> i personally don't take your comments as overly concerned with details, formalisms nor talking down at us b/c you are regularly in discussions with us and you give us useful feedback, it's when someone come out of the blue, rarely or never relates and start saying things are obvious (or not) and correct us, making oneself look smart or meaningful, that rubs me a way, i mean there's a reason i am 1200 and you're 2000, my TT terminologies are limited and not as well versed, i'm just starting out

=> sometimes i hit a shot or do a hit by accident and surprises me, and later i read about it or talk to someone about it and "that sensation" is validated or negated ... and so i know and can decide for myself if i want to keep it in my tool-bag

=> if you didn't share experiences or feelings, we would miss out on these opportunities to grow together

=> i've been told there's many ways to hit a shot, win a game or develop my BH blocking a loop, in a way, that frustrates me, a lot, b/c i want to be told what to do, just tell me what to do and i'll go to work ... until a point where i have more confidence and i am more capable of figuring things out for myself, i would understand my own game better then too, just a thot

 

[Brs]

=> my real question = does the "jump" pertains to after service only or during the rally or return of serve also?

Reasonable people can disagree about this.

Serve and receive are pretty clear. If you stand "pro-style" at the side of the table you have to jump to square up and get behind the table. If you serve bh from behind the table it's a lot easier. On receive you start in ready position and may be able to step in with one foot and back out, if the ball isn't very short to your FH course. So far so simple.

In the rally I think it's almost always better to move with both feet off the ground at once. Maybe the exception is when you only need a small reach to FH, and you step over with your right foot then immediately bring it back after your shot. But any other time it will change your balance and height unless you move both feet. That may be fine for one shot, but you will lose time getting back in position for the next ball, and very soon you can't play on the table. This is my experience. YMMV


=> der and i have been working on my effective strike zone and i am discovering sometimes taking a step closer with my left foot helps with BH loop quality yet you pointed out above "Thinking in terms of steps is possibly unhelpful. Steps are too slow" ... could you provide further context so i gain a fuller understanding? tks man

If the ball comes directly to your backhand right where you are standing, and the only problem is it doesn't come deep enough to you, then Der's solution is perfect.
Step in, play, step out, ready for another ball. Usually it would be better to also move slightly to the side so you don't have to move your elbow left or right to adjust to the ball. Maybe you have time to do those two steps separately, or sometimes you don't. The further the distance you need to cover the less well steps will work compared to jumps (or hops, whatevs).

The bottom line is any moving to the ball beats not moving. So if a step is enough great. And taking a step in may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than standing and waiting for a ball that won't come out to you.

For now just move your strike zone around as best you can and it will develop as you play progressively higher levels.

=> i've been told there's many ways to hit a shot, win a game or develop my BH blocking a loop, in a way, that frustrates me, a lot, b/c i want to be told what to do, just tell me what to do and i'll go to work ... until a point where i have more confidence and i am more capable of figuring things out for myself, i would understand my own game better then too, just a thot

Well, it's a complicated game. Infinite varieties of serve, four main rubber surfaces that play completely differently, seven or eight major play styles, it goes on and on.

If it helps your mind, you could also think of it as there only being one way to hit any table tennis shot. You always move to the ball and use the same kinetic chain (as der said to wrighty) to touch your paddle to the ball. Some swings are bigger or smaller and faster or slower. The bat angle changes maybe. But it's the exact same basic thing every time. Even on a BH block.

I play better and win more when I think in terms of priorities and not at all about technique. My priority order for every shot goes like this.
Play this ball:
1) on the table
2) with spin
3) and good placement
4) and the right timing (top of the bounce mostly but not always)
5) lowest priority if everything else is perfect, is power.

Again, this may not suit everyone. I am mostly a control player. YMMV. It definitely clears my mind when I am able to stay focused on these priorities, and not the score, or how bad I messed up at the end of the game before.

 

[LDM7]

1/11/2023

I took @Brs comments to heart and hopped around like a silly rabbit at today’s session, even der noticed some of my both feet, small hops towards the ball

@Der_ Echte tried to tire me out good today
He is guilty as charged by feeding me my 3rd ball of a three ball multi sequence (to my BH side) before I finish my second ball (a wide FH) follow through, too fast der, it was awkward

AREAS I HAVE IMPROVED:

I took contacting balls at the ESZ to a whole new level by blocking Ali’s (training partner) loops in succession that I amazed even myself (did you see that der, did you see the way i moved & controlled racket pressure?)

BH 3rd ball open (landing % and quality)

I am less intimidated and less afraid of taking balls off of the bounce

Apparently more & more of my loops (both wings) have penetrating depths now

FH loops are landing on either sidelines

AREAS I WANT TO IMRPOVE:

Any high balls (low energy?) to keep elbow down (“think V”)

High, spinny balls, drive through them forward with an open bat, finish upward (instead of looping into the net with a closed racket)

Adding “center T” BH loops (after right foot stepped to the right) variety, being able to hit both inside out and dTL

I need to work on them half-long (there, i said it … half long) FH loops dTL, so far not a high % (I suspect my miss have something to do with proximity … seem to recall something about letting the ball come longer)

FH run-around kill-shot dTL: recognize when incoming balls are not in my ESZ (middle?) and not reach & piss the ball away (need to add variety by being able to hit cross-court as well)

LDM7 can't wait til' next training, out!

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 today showed a lot of improvement in multiple areas. He furthered his execution of setting the strike zone and taking the ball in the portion of the strike zone he needed to make to ball go to the placement he wanted more consistently than before.

It made a world of difference to him when he discovered the strike zone, then positioning to set the strike zone, final movement to move the strike zone based on when he wanted to impact the ball, and where in zone/when to strike the ball to make it go different places. Now he is timing the ball more consistently inside the strike zone and it is opening even more doors for him.

Blocking is a similar dynamic in that closer positioning to the bounce helps easy blocking. He was still a bit too far back from table on the BH wing for continued BH defense, but he was still getting reasonably close to the bounce on ALI's continued topspins and had many rallies where he blocked 5, sometimes 10 quality loops... which I think is something LDM7 didn't show before. grip pressure, bot loose near the bounce and firmer higher on bounce for a faster block were things he demonstrated to himself that he could do... that goes a long way towards confidence and also just enjoying to play. (more fun if you can hang in the rally and make it interesting)

LDM is gaining more confidence to make the decision to attack without consciously processing things. The balls that troubled him (faster/heavier deep pushes that land near endline are getting handled better.

The 3 ball multiball sequence we did (1 to BH, 1 to FH, then a popup to the BH or slow one to BH... of course I am going to make the cadence go a little faster than rally cadence... that is why you do multiball... to push the envelope slightly to increase quickness in real world rally. Anyone seeing the action of rallies between Ali and LDM7 can tell LDM7 was hanging longer and playing more quality shots than before.

Ali told me LDM7 improved 200 points of based level from what he saw from LDM7 not so many weeks ago... I would temper that in the we would need to see league and tourney results first before saying that... however, it is very evident that the kind of plays LDM7 is making, the improved consistency, quality, movement, decisions and such... LDM7 is clearly doing those things in practice at a level players several hundreds of points higher rated do not show... and at some future point that will begin to show in match results vs his level and vs a couple levels higher.

All in all it was difficult for LDM7 to conceal his happiness at today's demonstrated progress in practice and at the conceptual things LDM7 has internalized well.

 

[LDM7]

let's do work der

sry i showed frustrations at your mb tonight

ta' ta'

 

[Der_Echte]

For the public record, I can handle anyone getting torqued off if there is a reasonable reason and the person is sincere and being real. This was a professional disagreement.

One item I did not spend much time was LDM7's footwork and movement. He showed a much better level of seeing/moving.

He is beginning to be more instinctive in seeing what is happening and knowing what he wants to do... this leads to seeing what happened on opponent's impact and simply going into action without consciously thinking about what or how to do it. This leads to playing faster, being quicker with movements, being on balance better, being more decisive. These are small nuances of TT that really add up to the contribution factors that determine points won/lost, games, and match outcomes.

There is also technical shot making ability/skills/proficiency, but putting it to work in terms of seeing the action and doing things about it... there is so much additional stuff going on and there is no time or place to be trying to consciously figure it out on the fly - it ruins everything.

 

[Der_Echte]

I took contacting balls at the ESZ to a whole new level by blocking Ali’s (training partner) loops in succession that I amazed even myself (did you see that der, did you see the way i moved & controlled racket pressure?)

How to control grip pressure before and during impact has been something I have been talking to LDM7 about a lot throughout our time training over the months.

The grip can absorb energy (spin and/or pace) and can rebound energy... a FIRMING at impact can add to the transfer/delivery of energy to the ball. When one gets a ball a little high and goes for more power, one ought to firm grip at impact to maximize resultant ball speed. One can and should hear the sound of the ball going into the blade face. Even a 30-40% power shot done at or over the table with a big firming of grip right at impact can make the ball fly pretty much as fast as a smash... since it is impacted closer to net, opponent has less time to react and the effect can be better than a smash from 5 feet behind table.

Many players focus only on the firming of grip at impact on their power shots. It is profitable to learn and discover that, but there is so much potential for control and point winning on the opposite end - LOOSENING the grip at impact to absorb energy and slow the ball down, control the ball spin and/or pace, or make the ball come out DEAD. (Richard Dewitt is prolly the most well know currently at this)

Being able to do a wide range of stuff with a loosening at impact has really helped LDM7 BH defense at the table to withstand attacks and look for chances to take over the point. This also a transferrable skill to serve receive once a player can improve the ability/frequency in which he or she can get close to the bounce on serve receive.

Since so many points are won or lost on serve receive, or at a minimum the rallies are started and major advantages are gained or lost, this is big time important to train and develop.

Unfortunately, no one can train every single thing all the time enough. it is a strategic development mission.

 

[LDM7]

indeed ... let's explore grip pressure more (firming, loosening) in the coming days

* smash (offense)
* serve return (to get a point started)
* blocking (more defense oriented, although can be view as neutral or offensive by controlling or attempt to gain more dominance during a point)

hope to connect at church tonight

P.S. we've gotta' (at least start) watch some of that "greg & suhir" training video before it gets away from us

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 got a few stories to tell from Church TT night... and likely a few more tomorrow.

LDM7 level up speed is picking up.

Here he comes... here comes Speed Racer... in that powerful Mach 5. Go Speed Racer, Go.

 

[Der_Echte]

There is a short arm BH flat hit kind of shot I am hoping LDM7 will develop... easy to do, short stroke, mostly lower arm and a little wrist. Can be done on loose high balls to finish points. Can be done vs balls only a few cm above net for a fast flat shot for pressure... can be against an incoming topspin that comes higher than net.

This is different from an on the rise topspin loop.

This is a series where a pro team got a few amateurs to train and raise their level.

(1) 'Backhand Push' Loophole counterattack skill! Table tennis lessons - YouTube

 

[Der_Echte]

LDM7 also got to see what I have always been saying about how to handle deep incoming balls on BH when you are close to table... you go down with the ball (bend knees some, get waist down some) and go up with the ball as it bounces up... strike ball a few cm in front or behind endline... impact ball on rise halfway to net... go through ball, go for spin... if you let ball rise to net you can go for more pace along with some spin.

Emad, Jeffrey, Pastor Roman and I switched teams each match or two and everyone kept giving me these balls.

Another thing down the road is for LDM7 to be doing or develop BH flips either on the rise or when ball is falling and 2 inches above table.

 

[LDM7]

LDM7 also got to see what I have always been saying about how to handle deep incoming balls on BH when you are close to table... you go down with the ball (bend knees some, get waist down some) and go up with the ball as it bounces up... strike ball a few cm in front or behind endline... impact ball on rise halfway to net... go through ball, go for spin... if you let ball rise to net you can go for more pace along with some spin.

Emad, Jeffrey, Pastor Roman and I switched teams each match or two and everyone kept giving me these balls.

Another thing down the road is for LDM7 to be doing or develop BH flips either on the rise or when ball is falling and 2 inches above table.

is this close to the end line BH down and up shot the same on the FH side or is FH side a totally different shot?

i'm going to figure out which BH is for me and put in work ... BH 2 spot was good exercise today

jeffrey's more of a flat BH

der's spinny BH loop

roman's "slap" BH (?) - short, compact & effective

then there's the BH "push" - let me watch the video 1st

one common denominator = body & feet are set for great leverage (i got to put in some reps here ... )

also metamorphosis step forward on them slow balls

an e.g. would be after a wide FH, keep shuffling feet back towards the middle, and be prepared to step up to a low energy ball (as needed)

Let's go LDM7!

 

[Der_Echte]

is this close to the end line BH down and up shot the same on the FH side or is FH side a totally different shot?

Hi LDM7,

The BH and FH near the bounce attacking shots are executed totally differently.

In a sense, it is easier for me to do this on BH. Why? the impact is closer to my eyes than FH. Easier to see ball and time it for me. I can get a position closer to the table much easier on BH so my natural strike zone can be set a few cm in front or behind the end line. The stroke itself and be very compact... 6-16 inches is enough swing length to make a very spinny or very powerful ball.

To do this on FH, you have to get the left foot under the table some to establish the strike zone near the endline. It is also much less natural to use the short length of stroke it takes on BH... but nothing is stopping your swing, so a longer swing is often used to FH topspin a ball that lands near endline and impact it close to bounce on the rise. A shorter, more compact FH can be effectively used vs a ball that has some incoming topspin or pace.

There are some 2400+ players who have perfected this short arm FH off the bounce vs incoming loops that land 2 feet before the endline when the ball is coming cross court towards the HF corner... they simply step their right foot under the table. get bat a foot behind the bounce... and when ball bounces, they impulse their forearm towards the bounce and strike ball with a loose wrist a few inches behind the ball and go through another foot... what results is a counter topspin that is quick as spit with excellent spin and this often wins the point. Player is often flat footed looking at this and wondering what happened.

 

[Der_Echte]

The BH counter you saw me do tonite was mostly a counter topspin close to the bounce with emphasis on spin and as much pace as I could safely afford. It depended on how well I could read and time the ball. Remember, I was being rushed and may or may not have read the ball well enough.. I was often just reacting... but going down with the ball and up with the ball are good visual cues that help out a lot under pressure.

That is the shot I am mostly inclined to do... go for spin, give back a slow to medium paced ball.

If I am able to wait for the bounce to get a little higher, I can and sometimes DO go for decent pace. I let ball come up net height and go for a medium loop... that is medium paced speed and heavy spin.

If the incoming ball is a little slower, lie someone just gave me a higher arching ball like a slow loop... then I can step in and take ball off rise, use a short compact forearm and wrist and bang into the ball (and firm up at impact)... that will result in flat hit with a lot of pace. You saw me do a couple of those.

Having a flat hit counter to a slow loop is great tool in the bag to have. It can get downright discouraging for a player to do all the right things to make a slow heavy loop loaded with spin and have it smacked easily for a winner. That just deflates you.

it is good to have all three of those BH near the bounce... it really opens up your options and lethality.

Roman does his hard hit BH by allowing the ball to come up an inch or so over the net. I can impact mine a couple inches above table top to a few inches over net, Jeffrey likes to take ball on rise and hit a medium loop that carries less spin than what a medium loop would normally carry, but his shot goes deep into BH corner often for a winner... so it is a handy shot to have.

I think being able to do all three gives you a lot of versatility and you may need that to deal with what you come across in the course of a match or tourney day.

You are beginning to discover your BH and all the things that relate to closeness to bounce, grip pressure, stroke, position, zone and the nuances involved. This can be an exciting road to go down. It enables you to do so much almost so effortlessly when you manage to put it together well enough.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hi team

I wanted to post in here as it seems to be the right place to continue discussion around improvement (that hopefully be will not be limited to me only)

I have come to realise, over the past few months of video analysis and coaching, that probably my biggest issue aside from footwork, is my overall level of body tension when hitting the ball. I am what I would call a "force" player and I tend towards muscling a shot over the net instead of using circular motion, flow and timing. For me this manifests on both sides - on FH my arm stays in "lock step" and my shoulder drives the power. On the BH what happens is the tightness inhibits my finish, and my stoke is choppy and jerky and often the ball will go long without the right finish or follow through.

The big challenge and my question here is, how can I begin the process of unwinding what has become a habit - and one that is magnified 20X when I am playing a match.

What drills or thought patterns can I build to drive a more zen, flowing and smooth style - one that looks slower and smoother?

I welcome any thoughts and help - I need to crack this.

Thanks

Peter

 

[NextLevel]

Hi team

I wanted to post in here as it seems to be the right place to continue discussion around improvement (that hopefully be will not be limited to me only)

I have come to realise, over the past few months of video analysis and coaching, that probably my biggest issue aside from footwork, is my overall level of body tension when hitting the ball. I am what I would call a "force" player and I tend towards muscling a shot over the net instead of using circular motion, flow and timing. For me this manifests on both sides - on FH my arm stays in "lock step" and my shoulder drives the power. On the BH what happens is the tightness inhibits my finish, and my stoke is choppy and jerky and often the ball will go long without the right finish or follow through.

The big challenge and my question here is, how can I begin the process of unwinding what has become a habit - and one that is magnified 20X when I am playing a match.

What drills or thought patterns can I build to drive a more zen, flowing and smooth style - one that looks slower and smoother?

I welcome any thoughts and help - I need to crack this.

Thanks

Peter

You can take many routes as long as you are not in a rush. I provide my typical one below.

Relaxing to hit the ball mostly means that you are trying to use the larger muscle groups in the lower body and core and not the arm. It takes a lot of practice at slower timing to get the body to understand the concept. The slower timing is usually necessary to allow you to hit the ball on the table (most people feel something is wrong when the ball is not going on the table). The slower timing also allows you to comfortably build up the muscle groups with lots of reps.
.
That said, the key to the process is:
1) is to focus on the activation sequence away from the ball - this will be shadow training. You should feel as if you are largely dragging your racket into the ball and not pushing it hard into the ball.
2) Then to focus on the activation sequence when the ball is present but without trying to put the ball on the table, but trying to get some measure of control. Some measure of control means that you play around with different stroke patters and see their effect on the ball - many people confuse control with always putting the ball on the table.. This is a valuable and underestimated part of training - it is good to see whether your understanding of what would happen when you try a stroke pattern matches up with what actually happens - many people get limited by continuing to try stroke patterns in a limited range. The way I put it is that the stroke that would put the ball on the table against a certain kind of ball might put the ball off the table or into the net against another kind of ball, so being able to read and adapt is key.
3) then you focus on the activation sequence in random training.

Does this get you to Nirvana? It almost never does as elements of your issues always show up as the game speed increases. Does it get you significant improvement? It almost ALWAYS does. You see that there are balls you can hit that you couldn't play before with your proper use of the larger muscle groups.

However, this is a painstaking process and happens over a long period of time. Plenty of the problem is that we beginners used to big gains sometimes underestimate the process of TT improvement. When someone comments about your game and you need to work on something, just imagine conservatively that you need around 6 months of training and 1 year of playing for you to see significant progress that looks completely different from what existed before.

The worst part of the improvement is that you almost never feel it. The best part of the improvement is usually that everyone other than you can see it.

 

[Wrighty67]

You can take many routes as long as you are not in a rush. I provide my typical one below.

Relaxing to hit the ball mostly means that you are trying to use the larger muscle groups in the lower body and core and not the arm. It takes a lot of practice at slower timing to get the body to understand the concept. The slower timing is usually necessary to allow you to hit the ball on the table (most people feel something is wrong when the ball is not going on the table). The slower timing also allows you to comfortably build up the muscle groups with lots of reps.
.
That said, the key to the process is:
1) is to focus on the activation sequence away from the ball - this will be shadow training. You should feel as if you are largely dragging your racket into the ball and not pushing it hard into the ball.
2) Then to focus on the activation sequence when the ball is present but without trying to put the ball on the table, but trying to get some measure of control. Some measure of control means that you play around with different stroke patters and see their effect on the ball - many people confuse control with always putting the ball on the table.. This is a valuable and underestimated part of training - it is good to see whether your understanding of what would happen when you try a stroke pattern matches up with what actually happens - many people get limited by continuing to try stroke patterns in a limited range. The way I put it is that the stroke that would put the ball on the table against a certain kind of ball might put the ball off the table or into the net against another kind of ball, so being able to read and adapt is key.
3) then you focus on the activation sequence in random training.

Does this get you to Nirvana? It almost never does as elements of your issues always show up as the game speed increases. Does it get you significant improvement? It almost ALWAYS does. You see that there are balls you can hit that you couldn't play before with your proper use of the larger muscle groups.

However, this is a painstaking process and happens over a long period of time. Plenty of the problem is that we beginners used to big gains sometimes underestimate the process of TT improvement. When someone comments about your game and you need to work on something, just imagine conservatively that you need around 6 months of training and 1 year of playing for you to see significant progress that looks completely different from what existed before.

The worst part of the improvement is that you almost never feel it. The best part of the improvement is usually that everyone other than you can see it.

Thanks NL, I appreciate the explanation.

In short, am I correct in summarising that if I learn to trigger the larger muscle groups in sequence, then the need to over use the smaller ones reduces?

Is there any other, complementary approach that helps, such as actually relaxing the smaller muscles? (lighten grip, ease up on pace of shots etc)

I can visualise what you say for FH, but given the relative lack of larger muscle movement on BH vs relatively higher use of smaller muscles (forearm/wrist) then how do I attack this one when shadow practicing - this is at least as problematic for me as FH as I tend to jab at the ball and use shorter unfinished strokes as a result of being tight.

 

[tabletennisdaily1]

Thanks NL, I appreciate the explanation.

In short, am I correct in summarising that if I learn to trigger the larger muscle groups in sequence, then the need to over use the smaller ones reduces?

Is there any other, complementary approach that helps, such as actually relaxing the smaller muscles? (lighten grip, ease up on pace of shots etc)

I can visualise what you say for FH, but given the relative lack of larger muscle movement on BH vs relatively higher use of smaller muscles (forearm/wrist) then how do I attack this one when shadow practicing - this is at least as problematic for me as FH as I tend to jab at the ball and use shorter unfinished strokes as a result of being tight.

For the backhand, there is still a little bit of body use. You want to squat a little bit (and be bent over a bit of course). During the stroke, you put pressure on your dominant foot (or both feet if that is more comfortable) and push up and forward. Lead the stroke with your body. I have found this gives a more consistent and effortless stroke as opposed to just using the elbow and forearm. If you watch ma long for example you can see this slight squat and push.

Cool LGY playlist on the backhand. Immediately talks about using the legs for the upward/forward push: