How would you define a Pro?

[PoppaChubby]

Havent read all the responses (no time ;/), but for me a pro (player) is someone who earns his living fully from tabletennis, while training full time (not having any other job to support him).

Yes and ...no: I know guys who do, like Heming Hu, teaching/coaching full time, with a decent level of playing TT with all the skills and techniques required to be a pro, but they don't play in pro leagues anymore or play in amateur leagues cos' their rank and level dropped.

Just an example of that: Emmanuel Dupas is a TT coach and teacher in La Romagne, french Pro A club. He does sessions in many amateur clubs around La Romagne. You have to be ranked at least 1300 FFTT (more or less 1800 USATT) to be accepted in the federal coach diploma class. But a 1300 guy is far from being a pro, really far, Dupas is actually even only ranked FFTT 1200 (USATT 1600, maybe 1700), being a pro TT player in France is like being in the FFTT 2500 to Felix Lebrun rank zone ! Now he's got the skills for sure, and he coaches very well, but he's also aged over 50, at best he's been 1730, meaning USATT 2100-2200. 1730 means you're not a pro player in France, nor in Belgium or Greece or Spain, or whateva !

As an example I would tell ya the 48 guys invited to play the french nationals were indeed pro players paid to play, the worst ranked was Kilomo Vitta ranked FFTT 2431 and he plays in the Belgium Superdivision pro league at Logis Auderghem's club. It's the tier 1 pro league in Belgium.

And there are also the guys in transition, like Emmanuel Lebesson: as he's studying to be a coach for the french national team, he coaches at the INSEP and he also plays and trains like a pro for a french Pro B club and an MLTT franchise. There are actually many guys like that who are paid to play AND coach. It's most of the time a contract signed with a pro club when you're too old/your ranking droppepd and preparing your profesional retraining.

 

[Matt Hetherington]

If you make your living from competing in table tennis at a high level either internationally or league, I would consider that a professional player. Anything below that I don’t believe is professional player. You could consider some international competitors semi-pro if they compete and train full time at international level but don’t earn a living.

It’s an interesting topic. I never called myself a professional player even after playing three world championships. I only ever called myself a professional coach, because that’s how I made a living at the time.

 

[Lando]

Your main source of income has to be TT related. I'm sure Timo makes/made more from Butterfly contracts than prize money.

 

[PoppaChubby]

I would define pro as someone whose income is derived from playing table tennis. This could be prize money, salary from a club or government, or sponsorships.

You could talk about what is a "pro level" but that is subjective and difficult to define.

How many players in China could crack the top 100? With the way the weird ranking system works, for women at least 10,000. For men at least 1000 but probably way more. With local champion points bonuses, if they went to a weaker area of the world and did well in that area, they are automatically in the top 100 without too much of a tough time. China has so many women players who trained seriously from a young age that no one has ever heard of. For men the road would be tougher, but the system still produces so many good players. A lot of retired male players in China still could break the top 100.

Xu Xin and Ma Long no question, but we all know their retirement is mandatory after 30 years old in the chinese system.

Now seriously many good chinese pros are actually playing in the french pro A and B, but they are loosing some matches mind you ! even at his prime Tianyuan Chen (former asian champion) has been beaten by Liam Pitchford

Sun Wen (Jura Morez) has also been beaten by Esteban Dorr in 3 straight games (Montpellier)this season, Dorr is a good double player but not in the WTT top 100 in singles !
Liu Yebo has only a 17% wins ratio for Roanne LNTT.

To me you could say 20 pro chinese athletes would be in the top 50, that's correct, we've seen 5 of them in the top 10 at some point with ML, FZD, WCQ, LJK and LGY, and maybe 40 in the top 100.

I mean... if Thibault Poret can crack up the Top 50, or some aussies, we should see way more chinese winning WTT feeders for example, but that's not the case.
Example: 9 CNT athletes in, none wins the male singles event https://worldtabletennis.com/eventInfo?selectedTab=Draws&eventId=2885

 

[lightspin]

Remember what I said:

"How many players in China could crack the top 100? With the way the weird ranking system works, for women at least 10,000. For men at least 1000 but probably way more. With local champion points bonuses, if they went to a weaker area of the world and did well in that area, they are automatically in the top 100 without too much of a tough time."

I am not saying they can go to Europe and crack the top 100, although there is a chance they could. I am saying if they went to Australia or the US or South America and became "local champions" or close to it, they could be top 100 ranked because of the weird way the ranking system works. Having trained in China for two years and knowing players who do well in the China national games but no one has ever heard of, I am pretty sure 1000 could find their way into the top 100.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Remember what I said:

"How many players in China could crack the top 100? With the way the weird ranking system works, for women at least 10,000. For men at least 1000 but probably way more. With local champion points bonuses, if they went to a weaker area of the world and did well in that area, they are automatically in the top 100 without too much of a tough time."

I am not saying they can go to Europe and crack the top 100, although there is a chance they could. I am saying if they went to Australia or the US or South America and became "local champions" or close to it, they could be top 100 ranked because of the weird way the ranking system works. Having trained in China for two years and knowing players who do well in the China national games but no one has ever heard of, I am pretty sure 1000 could find their way into the top 100.

Americans being american-centric and distorting facts... as always.

The question was initially from NDH and yes I've read well, it was about how many chinese would make the world top 100, not USA or Andorra or Vatican due... so please, stay true to the intial question, cos' you don't seem to have understand it that well

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/how-would-you-define-a-pro.36902/post-515195

 

[PoppaChubby]

Remember what I said:

"How many players in China could crack the top 100? With the way the weird ranking system works, for women at least 10,000. For men at least 1000 but probably way more. With local champion points bonuses, if they went to a weaker area of the world and did well in that area, they are automatically in the top 100 without too much of a tough time."

I am not saying they can go to Europe and crack the top 100, although there is a chance they could. I am saying if they went to Australia or the US or South America and became "local champions" or close to it, they could be top 100 ranked because of the weird way the ranking system works. Having trained in China for two years and knowing players who do well in the China national games but no one has ever heard of, I am pretty sure 1000 could find their way into the top 100.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/how-would-you-define-a-pro.36902/post-515195

Please...

 

[Lula]

Can play for a living, bu I just think mostly about the attitude. Hobby players complain so much about training with worse players, i believe pros makes the best of it.

 

[lightspin]

Americans being american-centric and distorting facts... as always.

Do you know how the world ranking system works at all?
Is English your native language?

If you are regional champion you get a ton of points. If you are top dog in your area, you get to go to the world cup, you get points from just losing in the 1st round. If you qualify for the world championships and the Olympics, you also get ranking points. By winning your local championship, you earn a ton of ranking points. This skews the world rankings of the local champions.

Seriously, do you have any clue how someone gets ranked in the top 100? It seems you don't. And I don;t care where you are from.

I don't want to be mean to Finn Lu and Nicolas Lum from Australia but look at their results that contribute to their world ranking on the ITTF website. They are already top 40 just from doing well in the Oceanic area. They still score points losing early on in international tournaments. There are 1000 players that could probably move from China to Australia that could do the same. Then they are in the top 100.
You only need to score 220 points to be in the top 100. Oceanic Cup 1st place gives 500 points, 2nd place gives 350. The semi finals score 175. The same type of analysis could be applied to some players from North and South America. If you move to Asia or Europe your road into the top 100 is going to be much tougher.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Do you know how the world ranking system works at all?
Is English your native language?

If you are regional champion you get a ton of points. If you are top dog in your area, you get to go to the world cup, you get points from just losing in the 1st round. If you qualify for the world championships and the Olympics, you also get ranking points. By winning your local championship, you earn a ton of ranking points. This skews the world rankings of the local champions.

Seriously, do you have any clue how someone gets ranked in the top 100? It seems you don't. And I don;t care where you are from.

I don't want to be mean to Finn Lu and Nicolas Lum from Australia but look at their results that contribute to their world ranking on the ITTF website. They are already top 40 just from doing well in the Oceanic area. They still score points losing early on in international tournaments. There are 1000 players that could probably move from China to Australia that could do the same. Then they are in the top 100.
You only need to score 220 points to be in the top 100. Oceanic Cup 1st place gives 500 points, 2nd place gives 350. The semi finals score 175. The same type of analysis could be applied to some players from North and South America. If you move to Asia or Europe your road into the top 100 is going to be much tougher.

Genuine curiosity;

If what you say is true and I am partially sold on this info from you, my friend, then my subsequent question shall be as follows:

Why are there not many second liner or provincial players from China / Japan / Korea make their move to play for Oceania? or Africa etc?

They could easily qualify for OG spots if they do that, won't they? Genuine question.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

• K.I.S.S. response. Gozo approves 100%. No money no pro. End of story.
• Tony is a pro b'coz he teaches U19 giggly college girls ( I've watched his YT ) and receive a fee.
  If he does not receive a fee and is doing it pro-bono, then he is still a hobby player.
• Heming is definitely a pro as he receives his income from coaching.
• Bobrow is a pro as he receives his income from YT related to TT, event commentary and being an Andro brand ambassador.
• Gozo is a 100% hobby player.

I think the question is player, not coach.
because coach - is a fee / income for sure.

but for players, how many can earn an income as a player? Do they work and play in the same time?
Many USA players never earn money from playing, and I am sure Hu has the same issue.
I do know some Australian Paralympic medalist that got income from the medal they won and the money is enough to pay your rent and basic expense, so to me it is a salary.
So in terms of TT in Australia, only few people had money to "play" table tennis but that was after getting the Paralympic medal.

Of course, when you retire, and you coach, it is income driven service most of the time.
But if you are a player....hmm... you need to be good enough to earn proper salary in European leagues for example. Any one can go there and say you play league in Europe, but there is amateurs and there is proper pros leagues.

In terms of me, I do a lot of things pro-bono as a coach in Taiwan with them and it isn't just girls... you need to check my new video..... (why are you so outdated.... lol)

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/inside-a-high-performance-training-center-where-taiwans-olympic-table-tennis-stars-are-made.36903/

 

[dingyibvs]

not sure why this is worth discussing instead of keeping it very simple. Anyone who makes a living out of it basically. There is just many different kinds of pros depending on the level and where they play.

Right, I thought it'd be pretty obvious. Pro is short for professional, which is someone who does something as his profession. If TT is how you feed yourself and put clothes on your back, then you're a pro.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Genuine curiosity;

If what you say is true and I am partially sold on this info from you, my friend, then my subsequent question shall be as follows:

Why are there not many second liner or provincial players from China / Japan / Korea make their move to play for Oceania? or Africa etc?

They could easily qualify for OG spots if they do that, won't they? Genuine question.

there was a Korean that moved to Australia and she is in the national team.
There was some Chinese into Africa, but that was a long time ago.

I think OG isn't on many peoples mind.
you don't get money for playing in the OG and if the countries TT level is low, I doubt there is a lot of business around coaching. and when people move, a big part of the move is employment driven.
i know some that moved to use OG as a stepping stone (play OG and retire straight away).

Australia for example - TT is so tiny. I am sure if Hu has rooms packed with students, he wouldn't have time to spend on forums and getting international students - of maybe he is super man and has 25 hours in a day.

Taiwan is a high tier TT country and full time coaches - work more hours than national team members in TT in a week, and the demand for coaches is super high - shortage of coaches to be honest.

I guess everyone is different, but playing in OG for many... isn't priority, including those that are good enough to beat Hu, who is a 2 time Olympian as everyone heard it many times already. So the problem isn't level.
Like the dozen players I deal with - asking me if there is a salary if they play leagues in Europe. So that sums up what they are thinking and aiming for.
However, the ones that does have foreign citizenship, I did encourage them to trial out for the national teams there.

 

[dingyibvs]

If making a living is the criterium, plenty of top players from smaller TT countries aren't Pro.

Then they're not pros. They are, presumably, still alive. If TT isn't paying the bills for them to stay alive, then what is? Whatever that is, that is what their profession is, not TT.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Then they're not pros. They are, presumably, still alive. If TT isn't paying the bills for them to stay alive, then what is? Whatever that is, that is what their profession is, not TT.

profession - I think this is a very important word to define pro or not pro. I never thought of that...

what is your profession? if they answer table tennis, and they not making any income, that means someone is helping them pay they bills, and it could be parents or something like that.

I know some American's that retire after OG to seek proper jobs - ie Erica and Ariel. Lily herself said she is under pressure from her folks to have a real income. so even high level athletes does face an income decision. But Lily has sponsorship money and with the Pro A club she is in, and MLTT, she is making income too. (note, USA level is way higher than many lower tier TT countries, so, many national players around the world, would need to have other income to stay alive)

 

[Tyce]

Then they're not pros. They are, presumably, still alive. If TT isn't paying the bills for them to stay alive, then what is? Whatever that is, that is what their profession is, not TT.

See this is where we enter the grey area.

If they have a part time job, they aren't Pro? What if the job is teaching table tennis? What if they work at a TT store and just punch in orders?
Top players giving clinics, sessions and the likes is very common and usually they get paid for it outright rather than it being a task they do for sponsorship. But does that equate playing TT for a living?
If so, does it still count when you replace TT clinics with teaching gym class?

I think my definition would be, if you make some income off it, to the point where you have to file it for taxes, you can call yourself professional.
But the professionals don't bother about this stuff. They just make the ends meet and reach as high as possible.

 

[thisisit]

profession - I think this is a very important word to define pro or not pro. I never thought of that...

what is your profession? if they answer table tennis, and they not making any income, that means someone is helping them pay they bills, and it could be parents or something like that.

I know some American's that retire after OG to seek proper jobs - ie Erica and Ariel. Lily herself said she is under pressure from her folks to have a real income. so even high level athletes does face an income decision. But Lily has sponsorship money and with the Pro A club she is in, and MLTT, she is making income too. (note, USA level is way higher than many lower tier TT countries, so, many national players around the world, would need to have other income to stay alive)

a profession is an activity(made with the purpose of gaining a remuneration) that was acquired through some kind of learning process that is professionalized.

professionalization is the process through which an activity becomes a profession. an accepted authority like the state governing body, village elder council or whatever, decree that an activity is special in a good way for their society.

any individual who undergoes the learning process for an activity that was professionalized is said to have that profession. if said individual practices that activity(which is his profession), he is a professional.

profession, work, professionalization, etc. are sociological terms that are reasonably clearly defined. problems in interpreting them arise, as they always do, when they are used in common language.

 

[dingyibvs]

profession - I think this is a very important word to define pro or not pro. I never thought of that...

what is your profession? if they answer table tennis, and they not making any income, that means someone is helping them pay they bills, and it could be parents or something like that.

I know some American's that retire after OG to seek proper jobs - ie Erica and Ariel. Lily herself said she is under pressure from her folks to have a real income. so even high level athletes does face an income decision. But Lily has sponsorship money and with the Pro A club she is in, and MLTT, she is making income too. (note, USA level is way higher than many lower tier TT countries, so, many national players around the world, would need to have other income to stay alive)

Income doesn't have to be salary, there are many professions where folks aren't salaried. Making income through sponsorship counts, as do tournament prizes of course. IMO a pro TT player can be considered a pro as long as their income is related to their playing.

See this is where we enter the grey area.

If they have a part time job, they aren't Pro? What if the job is teaching table tennis? What if they work at a TT store and just punch in orders?
Top players giving clinics, sessions and the likes is very common and usually they get paid for it outright rather than it being a task they do for sponsorship. But does that equate playing TT for a living?
If so, does it still count when you replace TT clinics with teaching gym class?

I think my definition would be, if you make some income off it, to the point where you have to file it for taxes, you can call yourself professional.
But the professionals don't bother about this stuff. They just make the ends meet and reach as high as possible.

I don't see how that's a grey area. If their job is teaching TT then they're a professional coach. If they work at a TT store and punch in orders then they're a professional cashier.

 

[lightspin]

Genuine curiosity;

If what you say is true and I am partially sold on this info from you, my friend, then my subsequent question shall be as follows:

Why are there not many second liner or provincial players from China / Japan / Korea make their move to play for Oceania? or Africa etc?

They could easily qualify for OG spots if they do that, won't they? Genuine question.

There are a few reasons why not.
1) Many mid-level players in China can make $150,000 a year playing local tournaments. Even if you aren't great by Chinese standards, you can get paid to just show up to tournaments. You get an appearance fee, you get paid travel money, you get free housing and food. If you do well, you get more money. If you enjoy playing table tennis you might as well stay in China and play. Also 150k in China is like living like a king. In the past many players wanted to move overseas just to get out of the country because the living standards weren't great in China. That also has changed.
2) The new ITTF and IOC guidelines make players wait a long time to be eligible to play in the Olympics. It is something like 9-12 years you must wait to play once you move to the new country to be eligible to play.
3) Getting a visa to leave China and enter the USA has currently become a nightmare. Some MLTT players were recruited and play a match in the USA and then they cannot get a visa to enter to play the next match. It has really tightened up.
4) If you are of a certain level, China won't let you leave permanently. Even if you got out of the country, the government has "persuavie" ways of getting you back.

I think the big reason is #1. If you love playing you might as well stay in China where you can make money and the standard is way higher. Once you move to the USA, Australia or even South America, playing full time is going to be impossible. You probably will have to spend your time coaching to make money. There was some talk of bringing some decent but not current CNT level players to MLTT but the amount of money they wanted was insane. They can command that money in China and still train full time which is what they enjoy. So why move to a foreign country where you don't speak the language and will end up coaching kids nosntop?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There are a few reasons why not.
1) Many mid-level players in China can make $150,000 a year playing local tournaments. Even if you aren't great by Chinese standards, you can get paid to just show up to tournaments. You get an appearance fee, you get paid travel money, you get free housing and food. If you do well, you get more money. If you enjoy playing table tennis you might as well stay in China and play. Also 150k in China is like living like a king. In the past many players wanted to move overseas just to get out of the country because the living standards weren't great in China. That also has changed.
2) The new ITTF and IOC guidelines make players wait a long time to be eligible to play in the Olympics. It is something like 9-12 years you must wait to play once you move to the new country to be eligible to play.
3) Getting a visa to leave China and enter the USA has currently become a nightmare. Some MLTT players were recruited and play a match in the USA and then they cannot get a visa to enter to play the next match. It has really tightened up.
4) If you are of a certain level, China won't let you leave permanently. Even if you got out of the country, the government has "persuavie" ways of getting you back.

I think the big reason is #1. If you love playing you might as well stay in China where you can make money and the standard is way higher. Once you move to the USA, Australia or even South America, playing full time is going to be impossible. You probably will have to spend your time coaching to make money. There was some talk of bringing some decent but not current CNT level players to MLTT but the amount of money they wanted was insane. They can command that money in China and still train full time which is what they enjoy. So why move to a foreign country where you don't speak the language and will end up coaching kids nosntop?

yep
it is so easy to earn money playing tournaments in China
lots of our players goes there, has a good time, (wine and dine), 2 days tournament and nice pocket money.
No time zone difference, and short flight time.

Playing olympic, is actually not in many players radar, the hype that Hu push on "olympic" is so rare, I mean, he can't get out of his olympic kit from 2021. but that is his passion with it as you all can see by watching any of his videos.
But other than that, I have not met another Olympian that is so bonded to the Olympics, in fact, I even received some TPE Olympic clothing as donation items to the less fortunate.

for most, it is indeed about income, and playing to meet a good income.
I was told - if they were to go out, it is really for the traveling aspect, provided if they can get visas.
and indeed, leaving China the past 2 to 3 years in terms of visas, has been a huge challenge.

I know one Indian player who "hired" a coach, and after 5 months of Visa "still in progress", they gave up.